Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 6 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Bulldogs85]

I will wish Dom and Rypstra all the best for their future endeavours

 

[Sentinel]

So 4 outs now
3 for the draft and one open for trade

OUT: O'Driscoll, Bedendo, Rypstra (rookie), presumably Smith, presumably Macrae

Also Rypstra departing doesn't open up an extra rookie list spot (and no requirement to upgrade any rookies this year as none are in their 3rd year), so as it currently stands we have no rookie spots, assuming we fill all main list spots with draft/trades.

TBD: Garcia, Clarke, JJ, Keath

 

[Snarls Barkley]

OUT: O'Driscoll, Bedendo, Rypstra (rookie), presumably Smith, presumably Macrae

Also Rypstra departing doesn't open up an extra rookie list spot (and no requirement to upgrade any rookies this year as none are in their 3rd year), so as it currently stands we have no rookie spots, assuming we fill all main list spots with draft/trades.

TBD: Garcia, Duryea (r), Clarke, JJ (r), Keath

I don’t understand the point of the rookie list. Surely we can scrap that now.

Didn’t even know who our rookies were

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I don’t understand the point of the rookie list. Surely we can scrap that now.

Didn’t even know who our rookies were

Every time the clubs, AFL and the players' association set the list rules and salaries etc. every time they do a new CBA, it's fair easier just to build upon the idea of a "rookie list" than reshape the rules and regulations as standard for all players. It allows things such as SSP selections and one-year contracts for draftees even if the actual eligibility to play games is not what it used to be.

Agreed, it's far different than those players getting paid so little that they weren't earning a full-time salary, age restrictions, the idea that it was a supplementary list for injured players, etc. etc. even if it maintains a continuous history in name only.

 

[Sentinel]

I don’t understand the point of the rookie list. Surely we can scrap that now.

Didn’t even know who our rookies were

Duryea, Baker, Bramble, Poulter, McNeil, Rypstra (all Cat A), O'Donnell (Cat B).

We haven't taken a new player at the rookie draft for the past 2 years, instead recruiting them via SSP and mid-season.

Outside of category B rookies, I'm also not really sure of the exact point of it these days compared to just an extended main list.

 

[Philthy1]

We just don't know enough about Sanders, Croft, or the two drafts to make a call yet. It's clear from the club's comments in the pre-season that we ended up paying a higher price than we thought we would be (by performing below expectations this season), but other than that, all we can say is that the trade has not been an immediate success.

The best way to look at it is that we brought forward a 1st round pick.

In any case, players don’t have a breakout season until year 3 or 4. It was never going to be an immediate success.

 

[Freshwater]

Dom Bedendo, from such a difficult upbringing to make an AFL squad, to then playing in the seniors is a tremendous achievement. Hope he does well in life.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

I get what you’re saying but I just don’t agree on games played necessarily indicating a player is, say, a C grader instead of a D grader. Even though that leans into Bigfooty armchair selection stuff (I will never claim to be more than a Bigfooty nuff). It’s subjective when objectively we know Cleary has been a non factor while others have played roles asked of them to some degree hence an arguably more valuable use of a list spot.

I view it as more that we have failed to address certain positions and that they have lucked into games due to our own list management woes. Particularly on the wing and at small/half forward, issues that have persisted for a number of years addressed only by cycling through multiples of the same type.

An extreme example but I’d point to McComb - he played 18 AFL games but that was out of desperation and a misguided attempt to mould a very below average player into something he couldn’t be. That total should have been closer to 0. Unfortunately he played 15 games, got only 1 year extension, then played 3 early next season - then fortunately delisted.

Cleary comparisons, well that goes into the concept of ‘ceilings’, draft picks vs DFAs etc. There is a balance there and maybe because of Marra and Darcy draft costs we have gone too far in a certain direction.

But yes I think overall we get carried away by the fact that fringe players can fill a role for one season therefore - two year extension. Power himself has witnessed multiple examples of these kinds of players going from, say, ~15 games to 0-3 games and irrelevant very quickly.

More so than these players themselves I take issue with how Power and co keep on repeating the same mistakes, and have failed over a few years to fix up the same positional weaknesses.

(Disclaimer, not saying the Bakers, Scotts etc of the world are why we haven’t won a final, or are killing our salary cap, and so on - just that it’s a recurring issue).

To me it’s particularly strange we very sensibly gave Bramble one year and McNeil two. Bramble had a better year even! But it’s fair to ask him to back it up before committing for longer.

Again I agree on all your points about contract lengths so will focus here solely on the Cleary stuff.

I hear you, but the point I'm making is less about arbitrary games totals, and more about looking at where the improvement needs to come from in a pragmatic way.

While it wasn't what cost us in the final, the fact is that the "bottom 5-10" players in our selected teams consistently let us down across the H&A season. There are a number of players there that, as it currently stands, are playing a lot more games for us than they would for other finalists.

Realistically, we need to be pushing them down out of that "15-25" range into the 25+ range. But the most effective way to do that isn't to trade them out - it's to cut from the 30+ list group, and do our darndest to identify targets that will come in ahead of those we want to push out.

Now, to Cleary.

Despite generally looking like a net positive at VFL level, Cleary has not had a look in at AFL level. This is also despite us cycling players through there a lot. It's despite us moving players like Williams, Richards, Daniel and (late season) Bramble out of there, giving guys like Khamis who looked set for the scrap heap a really considered go, and constantly experimenting between a 1-3 tall back line. Despite his existence, we've attempted to bring in guys over the top of him (Bramble, Coffield), and we've moved Freijah into a very similar role despite it being entirely foreign to him.

This is not sending the message that Cleary is viewed as being ready to play a role. I hear you that his form at VFL level is solid, and that from the perspective of the fans we can rely on him if called upon... but the reality is, our selection patterns suggest that the ones actually making that call disagree.

If that is the case, we need to project forward: do we have confidence that he can play a role in this team in the future? All you can really look at here is rate of improvement, and so far, it's difficult to mount an argument that he's progressing strongly.

Of course, I entirely agree with you that team selection is subjective and not necessarily the "correct" call. But essentially there are only two options here: he's either not up to it and won't get games, or our selectors wrongly believe he's not up to it and won't get games.

My point in all of this is that Cleary's VFL form might appeal to another club more than it does us. If we truly don't see a path to him featuring more than he has so far in our team, it's time to give him a tap on the shoulder and say, look, if you've got interest elsewhere, it might be your best chance at playing footy.

 

[Pencil case]

Any news from Garcia’s exit meeting today?

 

[weltschmerz]

Rypstra would have needed pretty major surgery in his draft year, given that he did his ACL, PCL, and lateral collateral ligament. Isn't hamstring sometimes used for the grafts? Sadly it could be that his leg can no longer hold up to AFL level.

 

[Martyn_30_]

Given the type of player Sanders is and how physically ready to go he was he couldn't have been much more disappointing. That type of player generally peak earlier and hit the ground running if they're quality, unless there's an obvious strength or fitness issue to start with.

Bont, Macrae and Libba in their first year all showed elite traits at afl level that could be built upon going forward, whereas Sanders didn't show any. He might well end up as a 200 gamer, but history says he won't justify what was given up for him.

 

[SharkMeister4]

Given the type of player Sanders is and how physically ready to go he was he couldn't have been much more disappointing. That type of player generally peak earlier and hit the ground running if they're quality, unless there's an obvious strength or fitness issue to start with.

Bont, Macrae and Libba in their first year all showed elite traits at afl level that could be built upon going forward, whereas Sanders didn't show any. He might well end up as a 200 gamer, but history says he won't justify what was given up for him.

Give it a break. Its just way too early to know, if you go back 3 years read the comments the media and this board were making about JUH. You cant tell what a players going to be capable of at this stage.

 

[Bald]

Given the type of player Sanders is and how physically ready to go he was he couldn't have been much more disappointing. That type of player generally peak earlier and hit the ground running if they're quality, unless there's an obvious strength or fitness issue to start with.

Bont, Macrae and Libba in their first year all showed elite traits at afl level that could be built upon going forward, whereas Sanders didn't show any. He might well end up as a 200 gamer, but history says he won't justify what was given up for him.

What elite traits did Macrae and Libba show in their first seasons?

 

[weltschmerz]

Give it a break. Its just way too early to know, if you go back 3 years read the comments the media and this board were making about JUH. You cant tell what a players going to be capable of at this stage.

People were calling Weightman a bust at this stage.

 

[HK_Bulldog]

Given the type of player Sanders is and how physically ready to go he was he couldn't have been much more disappointing. That type of player generally peak earlier and hit the ground running if they're quality, unless there's an obvious strength or fitness issue to start with.

Bont, Macrae and Libba in their first year all showed elite traits at afl level that could be built upon going forward, whereas Sanders didn't show any. He might well end up as a 200 gamer, but history says he won't justify what was given up for him.

Might be going a bit early on Sanders. I’ve criticised him as much as anyone but he does have an elite trait which is hunting the ball. His tackling is also pretty good. I just think we need to invest time into him to be more dangerous in his movement patterns and disposal. This will mean we will see him get caught a lot, kick a lot of floaters, look like a deer in the headlights. We will pull our hair out and bemoan his draft position but hopefully he comes out the other side as a more complete top 10 player. If we don’t invest in him, he will drift through his career with solid games as a low impact accumulator on minimum wages across 3 different clubs before finally being delisted.

 

[Dogman 1]

Any interest in Matt Owies, small forward who does kick goals. Wouldn't be the worst pick up.

 

[Struggle]

Any interest in Matt Owies, small forward who does kick goals. Wouldn't be the worst pick up.

Small full forward like Weightman, not a small forward. Doesn't chase tackle or put on pressure and from all reports is a pretty poor field kick

Last thing we need up there

 

[stevieg1969]

Apparently it's ok to screw clubs over if you can get the player to nominate your club. We're told you win some you lose some. So, let's start returning the favour and going after other clubs players well ahead of trade week. In the case of the smith trade, I don't think we'd get De Koning but someone like Sam Mannagh might be gettbale and immediately fills a need.

Agree - shake the tree. Gryan Miers may be too local to be got at but Brad Close is a super smart forward who we could ask to be packaged with a first round pick.

 

[Mofra]

I don't think anyone's criticising Sanders, just than in 15 years' time when the careers are said and done, it's probably a greater than 50% chance that an early teens pick would have found a player good as Sanders anyway.

The teens pick was Croft. I'm not sure we really wanted to risk keeping a pick that might have been eaten up by a Croft bid anyway

 

[bobs head soup]

Although it's totally the right decision to delist DB, I still feel a bit sad

I remember the stories of what he and his mother had been through and was so hoping he'd make a proper go of it.

Hopefully his time at the club has equipped him to excel in future endeavours.

All the best to you Dom.

 

[Mojorisin]

the race for the top Job at the Eagles is down to four. Brett Montgomery

Brett Montgomery

Age

51

Ht

180cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.3

4star

K

8.9

3star

HB

6.4

4star

M

5.8

5star

T

1.4

3star

No current season stats available

D

11.6

3star

K

8.8

4star

HB

2.8

3star

M

4.6

5star

T

1.2

3star

, Steven King

Steven King

Age

45

Ht

201cm

Wt

104kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.8

3star

K

7.9

3star

HB

4.9

4star

CL

1.3

3star

HO

16.8

5star

No current season stats available

D

11.8

3star

K

6.4

3star

HB

5.4

4star

HO

8.8

5star

, Andrew Mcqualter

Andrew Mcqualter

Age

38

Ht

179cm

Wt

74kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.9

3star

K

5.6

2star

HB

7.2

4star

M

3.4

3star

T

3.6

5star

G

0.4

3star

No current season stats available

D

13.6

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

6.0

4star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.4

4star

G

0.2

3star

and Hayden Skipworth

Hayden Skipworth

Age

41

Ht

177cm

Wt

78kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.3

4star

K

7.8

3star

HB

6.5

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

2.4

4star

No current season stats available

D

8.0

2star

K

5.8

3star

HB

2.2

2star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.4

4star

.

Skip worth is apparently the front runner with the Pies already bringing back Mathew Boyd from Fremantle as a replacement.

Posted here due to the amount of Bulldogs influence in the list and the noticeable somewhat expected omission of Lade.

 

[Martyn_30_]

What elite traits did Macrae and Libba show in their first seasons?

Macrae moved well in traffic and was a natural ball winner regularly getting 20+ touches regularly even though he was built like twig. Libba's hands were elite from his first game in round 1, he was also very hard at it.

 

[Bald]

Macrae moved well in traffic and was a natural ball winner regularly getting 20+ touches regularly even though he was built like twig. Libba's hands were elite from his first game in round 1, he was also very hard at it.

Macrae had 7 games of 20+ disposals, Sanders had 6.

Libba's handball efficiency in his second season (I can't get stats from 2011) was 75%, Sanders this year was 81.6%

We also need to consider that Sanders hasn't had a consistent go at it in his preferred position in the senior team, so if you factor in his VFL stats (which is dangerous, I know), he's clearly going to be a very good player.

 

[Martyn_30_]

Give it a break. Its just way too early to know, if you go back 3 years read the comments the media and this board were making about JUH. You cant tell what a players going to be capable of at this stage.

Ugle Hagen is a key forward, his progression is going to be very different to that of a ready made inside mid who the club has used multiple first rounders on. At the moment I think Sanders ceiling is that of a Daniel Cross type. The reality is if those sort of players aren't making an instant impact they generally don't amount to anything special unless they have physical limitations, you can point out some examples if want that shows that's not true.

 

[fred cook]

Small full forward like Weightman, not a small forward. Doesn't chase tackle or put on pressure and from all reports is a pretty poor field kick

Last thing we need up there

Forgot. Goes missing in finals