Strategy Trade and List Management Thread Part 7 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Unorth]

I hope this club isn’t getting too precious.

There are far less scrupulous teams that have been successful. You can’t let standards slip but you also need to retain talent, even if said talent isn’t perfect off-field.

Our too hard basket claiming Marra would be ridiculous. Pay the man, lock him in, work with him to improve his professionalism if need be. We can’t become a feeder club letting players with egos go because they don’t fit in with some “no dickhead” policy (whatever that actually means).

Sometimes you’re going to cop talented players that are harder to manage than a Ryan Gardner or Anthony Scott who’ll train the house down because they have to work harder for their spot on the list.

 

[Sentinel]

Yeah this is what I thought too, I was confused why everyone was saying one spot.

Right now we don't have room to sign Brew plus a midseason draft pick.

 

[House_of_Dahl]

The problem with this approach is that the only way you can 'cash in' when a very good or above player leaves your club is if it occurs under free agency and you recieve compensation.

If the Bailey Smith situation has reinforced anything its that the current system of out of contract player movement, outside of free agency, is dictated almost entirely by the player and the club is just a passenger in the process.

You simply can't get fair compensation, let alone cash in, when a very good or above out of contract player leaves your club.

I definitely do not want to trade Marra, but don't agree with the above.

Elite free agents generally leave for less than trade value unless you are a shit team.

It is a bit out of whack atm because they haven't adjusted their thresholds to the new salary caps.

If Baz was a free agent then best case scenario this year is basically what we got. I'd like to have kept him but his value was compromised. Hasn't played since his ACL, had a pretty poor year prior, and is high maintenance.

 

[glenashley]

The problem with this approach is that the only way you can 'cash in' when a very good or above player leaves your club is if it occurs under free agency and you recieve compensation.

If the Bailey Smith situation has reinforced anything its that the current system of out of contract player movement, outside of free agency, is dictated almost entirely by the player and the club is just a passenger in the process.

You simply can't get fair compensation, let alone cash in, when a very good or above out of contract player leaves your club.

Well for a start you trade them whilst they're in contract. Like a month ago when we had the chance.

 

[BLACAE]

I wouldn't be letting Marra go. As he builds his tank, he can be used in the middle, get the ball in long, and hopefully burn his opponent with speed. Croft is another. That kid can run, and he has excellent speed. I know people were suggesting the back line, but with that endurance and height, he'd kill it on the wing. From there, he can support defence and go forward for shots on goal.

On SM-G990E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Thunderoad]

Well for a start you trade them whilst they're in contract. Like a month ago when we had the chance.

It makes no difference if the player is contracted

The player still nominates the club they want to be traded to and the existing club loses all leverage as a result.

Until such time as two clubs can agree to trade a player, regardless of whether the player likes it or not, using trades to cash in on talent just isn't a legitmament list management strategy.

 

[NthBondiDoggies]

I can not understand why anyone would be Ok with Marra going. Only 22 and is already at 43 goals. He is a clear star

I get that we have riches in an area we have not had in my lifetime - with JUH, Naughton and Darcy (and just move Lobb out) and have Croft and Khamis (if needed) and now Davidson over 190 as third/fourth.

For the premiers of the last few years it is mostly two talls and a medium tall. But with Naughtons agility that is what we have. As Brisbane third tall - Logan Morris is a big bodies 191 playing a similar role - Naughton is better and I expect will be much further up the ground next year with a licence to go Carey/Ablett Snr and play where the need is. Marra will be better than Hipwood and Darcy will go way past Daniher.

McKay, Curnow and Silvagni are the closest and a great three - they missed Silvagni this year but still just with the tow they would have scored more goals than our three and tried to play two rucks but Pittonet can’t kick goals. Darcy and English can and that is where we pass them as the best tall forward line in the comp.

It is also about combinations - Darcy and West have great connection, JUH and Flea also.

That third small is still open. Today I believe we look best with Artie - works well with other talls but he is not established and we have VDM, McNeil preferred ATM then Harmes, Garcia, Hynes, Dolan and Davidson - Sammy has given Bevo options. In the couple of games Harmes played there before he got injured he looked the best of all. That and wing are the most open.

I hope JUH sees that this combination is where he will thrive - almost all clubs will chase him hard and it will be another distraction if he lets it go to contract end. We saw at the last renewal it affected his game - and so hopefully his managers will act against their interests for a change and give him some room to just play.

Croft has a couple of years to settled but is more likely (bar injury) to get a game in defence given Jones and Lobb will have increasing injuries over the next year and while we have Buss, JOD and Gardner - there is a long term role as he fills out and an earlier role given his speed. Less star power but solid. So no need to open up the old Naughty back discussion.

 

[RedWhite&Blue]

Good points.

Now in hindsight, do you think he is a number 1 pick talent (ignoring the circumstances we got him through NGA etc)

He is absolutely still pick 1 quality.

 

[SharkMeister4]

If Jamarra was more composed in front of goal he would have been in the running for coleman - I get people are frustrated with the consistency issues but the overeaction to an incredibly talented player with good output is crazy.

I personally like the direction the list is going, weve got more options and a lot of pressure now on our weakest list spots. What I, like many people, am interested in seeing is where does the improvement come from next year. Im hoping it is from better tactical cohesion rather than individual brilliance - weve had a year to learn the change to our defensive structure and another year of synergy between our big 3, and a lot of harder players brought in at the expense of talented but softer players.

No obvious individual that is ready to set the world on fire, but then again Richards wasnt an obvious player to become an elite mid this time last year either. Lobby and Richards with a full pre season in new spots, Sanders another year in the system and Kennedy to add better midfield synergy?

 

[Northernsoul74]

He is absolutely still pick 1 quality.

Watching another team get the best out of of him would hurt.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

It makes no difference if the player is contracted

The player still nominates the club they want to be traded to and the existing club loses all leverage as a result.

Until such time as two clubs can agree to trade a player, regardless of whether the player likes it or not, using trades to cash in on talent just isn't a legitmament list management strategy.

People like saying this as if it's fact when it's not, really.

We got two years of Josh Dunkley in contract after he had requested a trade, both years for below market rate salary so it wasn't against the salary cap, one year we made the grand final, the other year he was our best player for the season and in the final, and dragged us to finals. Then when we did trade him, we didn't trade him for monumentally less than what he would have been if traded in contract, the difference being the fact of the leverage of the pre-season draft.

We used that leverage ... by having Dunkley help us win games of football.

That's one of many examples. Tom Papley requested a trade to Carlton once, remember? etc. etc.

It's just a truism that people assume that isn't true

 

[Norm De Guerre]

I’m not sure any of the comments are really putting him down. It’s more commentary about behaviour that could be an issue and a general hope that he will be ok and a solid team player moving forward. Stringer isn’t at his 3rd club without reason.

The problem is that most of the opinions that people have formed on JUH in recent times come about from the feed back loops that places like this create.

Rumours soon become oft repeated and established facts regardless of their veracity.

 

[Thunderoad]

People like saying this as if it's fact when it's not, really.

We got two years of Josh Dunkley in contract after he had requested a trade, both years for below market rate salary so it wasn't against the salary cap, one year we made the grand final, the other year he was our best player for the season and in the final, and dragged us to finals. Then when we did trade him, we didn't trade him for monumentally less than what he would have been if traded in contract, the difference being the fact of the leverage of the pre-season draft.

We used that leverage ... by having Dunkley help us win games of football.

That's one of many examples. Tom Papley requested a trade to Carlton once, remember? etc. etc.

It's just a truism that people assume that isn't true

You're straying a long way from the original point with this response.

Under the current system, it isn't possible to 'cash in' when trading a either contracted or out of contract player.

By cashing in, I mean trading a player to a club for over what that player would otherwise reasonably be worth becuase that club is desperate to get the player.

Under the current system that desperation disappears the moment the player nominates the destination club becuase the custom is that the departing club acquieses to the payers demands.

If we get to end of the year and think that JUH won't sign another contract with us and Brisbane are desperate to get a quality forward to ultimately replace Daniher, then all JUH needs to do is nominate Brisbane and our leverage disappears.

We then get what we are given by Brisbane in a trade as per the Bailey Smith situation and we certainly don't cash in.

 

[Bulldogs85]

JUH is Contracted until 2026 so no our Leverage doesn’t disappear if he nominated them

If we get to end of the year and think that JUH won't sign another contract with us and Brisbane are desperate to get a quality forward to ultimately replace Daniher, then all JUH needs to do is nominate Brisbane and our leverage disappears.

 

[Deadly Darcy]

You're straying a long way from the original point with this response.

Under the current system, it isn't possible to 'cash in' when trading a either contracted or out of contract player.

By cashing in, I mean trading a player to a club for over what that player would otherwise reasonably be worth becuase that club is desperate to get the player.

Under the current system that desperation disappears the moment the player nominates the destination club becuase the custom is that the departing club acquieses to the payers demands.

If we get to end of the year and think that JUH won't sign another contract with us and Brisbane are desperate to get a quality forward to ultimately replace Daniher, then all JUH needs to do is nominate Brisbane and our leverage disappears.

We then get what we are given by Brisbane in a trade as per the Bailey Smith situation and we certainly don't cash in.

How the hell did Geelong get what they did for Tim Kelly? Out of contract, nominated a club. Are they just literally better at poker than every other club which seems to be playing with cards face up? I hate them but you have to admire their ability to maximise every trade no matter which hand they are being dealt……

 

[Dog 36]

How the hell did Geelong get what they did for Tim Kelly? Out of contract, nominated a club. Are they just literally better at poker than every other club which seems to be playing with cards face up? I hate them but you have to admire their ability to maximise every trade no matter which hand they are being dealt……

Says more about the Eagles I say

 

[CarnTheScray]

How the hell did Geelong get what they did for Tim Kelly? Out of contract, nominated a club. Are they just literally better at poker than every other club which seems to be playing with cards face up? I hate them but you have to admire their ability to maximise every trade no matter which hand they are being dealt……

At looks like a Geelong masterclass until you look at how much West Coast coughed up for Matthew Owies. They are just hopeless right now.

 

[NthBondiDoggies]

If Jamarra was more composed in front of goal he would have been in the running for coleman - I get people are frustrated with the consistency issues but the overeaction to an incredibly talented player with good output is crazy.

I personally like the direction the list is going, weve got more options and a lot of pressure now on our weakest list spots. What I, like many people, am interested in seeing is where does the improvement come from next year. Im hoping it is from better tactical cohesion rather than individual brilliance - weve had a year to learn the change to our defensive structure and another year of synergy between our big 3, and a lot of harder players brought in at the expense of talented but softer players.

No obvious individual that is ready to set the world on fire, but then again Richards wasnt an obvious player to become an elite mid this time last year either. Lobby and Richards with a full pre season in new spots, Sanders another year in the system and Kennedy to add better midfield synergy?

I agree with this. We saw years and decades of aimless recruiting - after a star but no system. Now our recruiting is very focussed on building in targeted areas - we either get a. Trade or draft pick or multiple options.

Sometimes - it doesn’t work - that is the game we have to play. Take for example the repayment of Wood - an intercept defender. For years we took f/all contested marks with 1 or 2 defenders that could just be taken out if the play like Lake. Adams, Tim O’Brien, Parker, (the guy from Freo / was good but a bit too small), but now have JOD, Khamis, Coffield who ca. play that role and Lobb addition means you can’t just take Jones out.

We have had a stack of tries at Wing, HHF and Small forward that are still WIP. Rather than have a gap or put all our eggs in one basket we have multiple options and back our team to make them serviceable at works with the talent potential to maybe find someone who will be a diamond missed by others.

Wing: Williams, Friejah, Baker and Poulter

SF: McNeil, VDM, Jones, Dolan (Clarke)

HHF: Khamis - inconsistent/maybe better back but he does kick goals and spread defences, now Kennedy and Davidson (Bedendo, Hannan)

Speed in the middle: Trelor originally and a star and now Garcia, Gallagher and Flea rotation.

These aren’t flops because we don’t yet have stars - they are moneyball moves that mitigate our weaknesses.

Take Fullback - Morris/Hamling became Keath/Gardner as this wasn’t working out we got Jones’ then moved Lobb and now have JOD/Buss in development.

Bramble for JJ was another good move. A fit JJ is a Norm Smith level player. But him out slowed our backline down to treacle- enter Bramble now two good options.

Filling gaps determines how far we fall behind - the floor.

We then areas of strength we want to grow - forwards and midfield.

We have stars that we will see major take-them-to-the-bank improvements in this year and beyond:

- JUH, Darcy, Richards, Weightman, West have shown they can take games apart and Sanders - had an outstanding first year - already well above VFL had 25+ possession AFL games and Friejah - kid made adults look foolish at 18.

and a solid core of elite AA level players:

- Bont, Trelor, Libba, Dale, Naughton, Jones, Lobb, JJ and English.

These two groups determine how far we go. The ceiling.

Stars, growth and filling gaps - is pretty impressive.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

You're straying a long way from the original point with this response.

Under the current system, it isn't possible to 'cash in' when trading a either contracted or out of contract player.

By cashing in, I mean trading a player to a club for over what that player would otherwise reasonably be worth becuase that club is desperate to get the player.

Under the current system that desperation disappears the moment the player nominates the destination club becuase the custom is that the departing club acquieses to the payers demands.

But it's a means to the same ends. To win games of football. Whether it comes from a player who has requested a trade but continuing to play well, or a bigger trade haul on the basis of the player being contracted and that additional trade hall translating to a better list translating to wins on the field.

You talk of "cashing in" as if the point of trading players is to play it like we're trying to win by maximising trade hauls, as oppose to the other aim of making trades - that it eventually leads to wins. The old Essendon "win trade week" rather than actually win games of football meme.

The leverage in this instance of being contracted is that player was forced to be held to that contract and continued to provide wins for the team that had him contracted, as was the case with Dunkley.

Two years of Dunkley playing as well as he did in 21-22 on a below market rate salary (one of the reasons he requested the trade) itself is worth more than an additional first round pick or whatever we would have gotten trading him in contract. I would much rather have banked the certainty of Dunkley's two seasons of form than have a better draft hand.

 

[doggiesin08]

He is absolutely still pick 1 quality.

Agree. If he went into the draft this year I’m confident that Richmond would have picked him at #1 over Lalor, and if for whatever reason they didn’t then North definitely at #2 over FOS.

 

[doggie dog]

What are we saving our cap for? We had enough to make an offer to Barrass, he said no, and we just traded out Macrae, Judas and Daniel.
How much more spare cap do we need?

Cap space for us isn't as necessary for the doggies as it is with the bigger clubs.
We're not a destination club with the lack of big games on the AFL calender.
We need cap space for new deals for The Bont/Darcy/Richards.

 

[doggie dog]

The issue with our forwards isn’t talent, or even output and work rate, it’s consistency. All three talks thrive on momentum. And I think only ever really seen Naughton build into games. If JUH and Darcy to a lesser extent( probably due to inexperience) start poorly they don’t often get better through the game. But if the start hot they tear games apart. I really think they will be working with sports psychologists as much as kicking coaches in the off season.

I believe we need 3 things to happen to our fwd line which alot of this board has been harping on about for ages.
1: Fwd line coach that teaches the required leading patterns for our tall fwds and how to crumb for our smaller fwds. Flea is not a key fwd.
2: Goal kicking practise, not just the physical side but the emotive eg pressure kicks. We can't be kicking it out of bounds on the full 30 meters in front.
3: Hitting targets on the lead and kicking to space. We got out marked by Hawks defenders in the finals because of poor service into the fwd line.

 

[VitalDread]

For reference

Fox Footy is reporting we have two spots open

While AFL is reporting we only have one stop open

 

[threenewpadlocks]

For reference

Fox Footy is reporting we have two spots open

While AFL is reporting we only have one stop open

Both the status of JOD as a Cat B rookie, and whether or not we count a Cat B rookie spot as a free spot, leading to the confusion.

We literally have no idea

Even Draftguru, which is generally excellent, got some of our rookie statuses wrong for this past season

 

[BeMoreBont]

I don't want Jamarra to leave. But I get the feeling he wants to leave us and will.

This isn't based on any rumour, nor do I have any inside knowledge. It's just the same feeling I always had with Baz.

Watching him in that final against the Hawks was more than enough evidence I needed to confirm my feelings are accurate.

Similar to Baz, he's never going to be the number 1 man here. Darcy is. The 'big' clubs will come knocking again. Rinse and repeat.