Transgender - Part 2

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Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.
 
Thing to remember, in my view, is this. If a person has not gone through puberty in a natural sense, then it is by definition artificial. As soon as you introduce puberty blockers or what have you into the conversation and as a eventual judgement, then you have ventured into that realm.
Dental implants and fillings are artificial too.
 
Thing to remember, in my view, is this. If a person has not gone through puberty in a natural sense, then it is by definition artificial.
What is "a natural sense"?

Girls with recognised medical issues prescribed birth control pills as a treatment - is that natural? Should they have to report this to the Morality Police?

As soon as you introduce puberty blockers or what have you
"What have you" seems to cover a LOT of cases here.

into the conversation and as a eventual judgement, then you have ventured into that realm.
 

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Can't use the toilet of your gender, can't use the toilet the transphobes tell you people of your genitalia should use, maybe they need to urinate and defecate in public as a protest. Preferably on a transphobe's shoes.

Never underestimate the effectiveness of a 'dirty protest'!

May 6, 2021

For almost thirty years (1969-1998) Northern Ireland was gripped by violent conflict. Republicans wanted an end to British rule and Unionists and Loyalists wished to preserve their citizenship and place in the United Kingdom. Bitterness and animosities intensified on both sides and reciprocal atrocities spiralled. Almost 4,000 lost their lives, thousands more were injured, and the economy and social fabric were torn apart.

Those convicted of paramilitary offences came into the prisons in their hundreds and then thousands. Insisting they were soldiers, they behaved differently from ordinary prisoners. They were at first mainly members of the IRA, but significant numbers of Loyalists soon followed. Both factions rejected the legally established prison rules which they said criminalised them and their cause. They particularly objected to the requirement that all should wear a uniform and perform prison labour. The resultant standoff launched a series of bitter struggles.

In the search for peace, significant concessions had been made on prison rules in the summer of 1972. These conferred “special category” status on people who had committed crimes of a paramilitary nature. The various privileges associated with this status met most of the paramilitaries’ demands. Amid continuing violence, the UK government decided to withdraw the 1972 privileges from all whose offences were committed after March 1976. After due process and sentencing, the people convicted after this date began to arrive in the prisons a few months later. Their rejection of the ordinary prison regime initiated almost five years of intense protests.

Most of the newly arrived Republicans refused to wear the uniform (Loyalists accepted it). No other clothing was permitted and so protesters went semi-naked, covering themselves in a blanket: this was the strip strike.

Extreme measures

It eventually became clear that this approach put no pressure on the authorities. With this realisation, the dirty protests commenced. This new form of action was so extreme, entailing such an astonishing degree of self-inflicted hardship for the participants, that even the hard-line secretary of state for Northern Ireland, Roy Mason, gave it grudging acknowledgement as “a brilliant stroke”.

The authorities and the protesters settled in for the long game. Months and years of close and semi-naked confinement followed. Cells were less than 100 square feet, and the protesters smeared every hard surface with excrement, into which they worked particles of rotting food. Urine was used to dilute the mixture before it was spread.

Beyond most people’s imagining, this world of faeces-handling, unremitting stench, and contamination was frequently shared with a cellmate. There was no cell sanitation, so each performed bodily functions in front of another. They slept on mattresses on the floor because their organisation decreed that they should destroy all cell furniture. Even the mattress covers were torn apart to spread the foul mixtures.

There were short, out-of-cell periods. The law stipulated a minimum amount of exercise. In addition to this, there were trips to the visiting room and periodic extractions for medically mandated washing and haircutting. These were resisted with varying degrees of force, and there were regular tussles and sometimes violent battles with staff. Both sides alleged brutality.

This was the nightmare of the dirty protest in the Maze prison, outside Belfast. It lasted for 40 months and was the most remarkable campaign in any prison anywhere, certainly in the 20th century, and possibly at any time. It was the springboard for the better-known 1980-81 hunger strikes and created an indirect but certain path to the protracted peace process that began in the mid-1980s, after the collapse of the hunger strikes...
 
This sounds like it is misrepresenting Jo Rowling's views entirely with an "all she said was..."

No, she said a LOT more than that. The protests and rejection of Rowling's anti-trans activism were pretty much valid.

And I don't think the trans activists were the "all or nothing" mob. The demands from anti-trans people for blanket sports bans show that.

The article is an absolute misrepresentation of some of the views of more implacable activists in certain situations and the general consensus views.

Death threats and more against activists across the board don't seem to have harmed the anti-trans and far right mob at all. I haven't read the whole article yet - do they bring that up?
 
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This side of politics often talks about privilege - how privileged do you have to be to think hundreds of millions of US voters should prioritise your insignificant preferences like playing in other gender’s sports? There are real issues out there that people care about like rising cost of living.
 
The problem, then - leaving the sports stuff to one side for the time being - is that this camps you pretty strongly with the bioessentialists, which is a fraught perspective due to the difficulty of stating biologically what a woman specifically is.
This might be one of those long posts, so much to cover and the end result still won't be enough.

I'd argue "pretty strongly" is a bit of an overstatement. I had to go and read the Cliff's Notes on bio essentialism, it not being a term I'm familiar with, and I read some things I'd tentatively agree with, and some I didn't. That some roles in society have developed differently due to differences in physical capability entrenched over millennia of evolution, I'd agree with. The psychological side... is problematic. Yes, and no.

Species come and species go, Gethelred. Much of social evolution (as uncomfortable as I am distancing that from biological, especially in this instance) is geared toward successful and continual reproduction. Now, the reason I'm loathe to distinguish overmuch between social and biological evolution is that evolution is the product of necessity. Many of the things we hate, and rail against in modern times, were necessary in times in which humanity itself was not firmly established, and was under constant threat.
Many social mores are not necessarily applicable in modern times, but they are certainly understandable. And, come the Zombie Apocalypse, they may become applicable again.

In this type of debate, Gethelred, you can't simply leave the sports stuff aside. It is evidential of the ham-fisted approach society is currently taking in the name of "inclusiveness", and what the eventual results will be are not yet known. I have a sneaking suspicion we have already begun to find out. Here, I'm speaking less about the alphabet folks and more about DEI policy in general, so I'll leave that aside.
I will say this much though. A common mantra being "do what thy wilt, as long as..." leaves aside, far too often, what constitutes "harm".

I don't have any particular difficulty stating biologically what a woman specifically is. She has a womb, she has ovaries, she can reproduce. Men are the other half of that equation, and they are/were psychologically less invested in the results of process.
Counterfeiting sperm and eggs is currently beyond us, and I have a feeling it will remain so for quite some time. When we can do that, we will effectively have the answers to creating life itself.
We're not there yet. In the meantime, we must carry on knowing the difference between biological men and biological women. Those who try to disguise that are enacting a betrayal on a very deep, literally visceral level. It's a betrayal society can currently absorb... but an individual within that society may not, with any ease of mind, be able to.


We are one of the least sexually dimorphous species on this planet, EIV.
That's an opinion. One I'd agree with, without giving it overlong consideration, but it leaves out one rather important question - why?
Perhaps more importantly - why now? One question we do not - and may not ever - know the answer to is the historic prevalence of gender dimorphism itself. I'm aware there are plenty spruiking the old "always has been, always will be" line, and while that may or may not be true, the question of prevalence is not fully answered. Those who say that prevalence is only becoming evident now due to permissiveness have an answer, but I don't necessarily believe they have the whole answer.
There are quite a few species who change sex at need. It's often a reaction to environment - and note here I'm not confining that to the physical environment. How much that point applies here I can't really say with any real authority, but the oft-espoused unchanging quality of mankind and it's assumed utter removal from the rest of the "natural" world as put forward in this instance has to be viewed with doubt.

We are becoming more god-like, but we are not gods.
I don't think anyone with even a modicum of knowledge (not only evolutionary, but psychological) could unequivocally say that humanity is the same as it has always been.
Unless, of course, you're some sort of creationist. I often have a bit of a giggle at those who claim to be atheists and then turn around and deny evolution in the next breath. It's a part of that inconsistency I often speak of. I'm aware of the ramifications of the either/or there, but for the life of me I can't really think of a third option.

Any biologically deterministic perspective keeps running into exceptions to the supposedly hard gender lines.
Of course it does. We're a complicated species, and any tech will tell you the more complicated the machine, the more chances there are that something can go wrong. An interesting complication to that is that in a very complicated machine, something can go wrong and the machine is still able to function, provided what went wrong wasn't catastrophic.
There's a choice of words. "Go Wrong". If considered from a purely evolutionary point of view, those words are correct. It's only in modern times we can take that knowledge and consider the why or the how. And it is society, specifically our modern society, which will take umbrage at the very thought those words could even apply.

I've already started considering the response I'm guessing you're going to throw at me, if you do. I have a feeling you're going to have, at face value at least, some rather good arguments which will garner you lots of likes from the usual suspects. There was, as per usual, a lot I had to leave out by way of clarification, and of course there are always going to be those who will argue that getting "affirmative" surgery on an otherwise physically healthy child is comparable to getting a cavity filled.

But I want to leave it with this.

Currently, the surgical and chemical "affirmation" being done to children that we have the scientific capability to do, but without full understanding of consequence, is narcissistic Mengele-level experimentation which fills me with absolute horror.
I find it quite annoying that I probably won't live long enough to find out what the eventual results will be. I can only hope future generations don't come to view it all as a sort of social equivalent of Thalidomide.
 
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This might be one of those long posts, so much to cover and the end result still won't be enough.

I'd argue "pretty strongly" is a bit of an overstatement. I had to go and read the Cliff's Notes on bio essentialism, it not being a term I'm familiar with, and I read some things I'd tentatively agree with, and some I didn't. That some roles in society have developed differently due to differences in physical capability entrenched over millennia of evolution, I'd agree with. The psychological side... is problematic. Yes, and no.

Species come and species go, Gethelred. Much of social evolution (as uncomfortable as I am distancing that from biological, especially in this instance) is geared toward successful and continual reproduction. Now, the reason I'm loathe to distinguish overmuch between social and biological evolution is that evolution is the product of necessity. Many of the things we hate, and rail against in modern times, were necessary in times in which humanity itself was not firmly established, and was under constant threat.
Many social mores are not necessarily applicable in modern times, but they are certainly understandable. And, come the Zombie Apocalypse, they may become applicable again.

In this type of debate, Gethelred, you can't simply leave the sports stuff aside. It is evidential of the ham-fisted approach society is currently taking in the name of "inclusiveness", and what the eventual results will be are not yet known. I have a sneaking suspicion we have already begun to find out. Here, I'm speaking less about the alphabet folks and more about DEI policy in general, so I'll leave that aside.
I will say this much though. A common mantra being "do what thy wilt, as long as..." leaves aside, far too often, what constitutes "harm".
I'd argue that what you have is theory - which is the point I made - and practice - how things are applied in the real world. You can absolutely split the conversation between theory and practice, and you can absolutely leave the sports stuff to one side in order to purely discuss theory.
I don't have any particular difficulty stating biologically what a woman specifically is. She has a womb, she has ovaries, she can reproduce. Men are the other half of that equation, and they are/were psychologically less invested in the results of process.
Counterfeiting sperm and eggs is currently beyond us, and I have a feeling it will remain so for quite some time. When we can do that, we will effectively have the answers to creating life itself.
We're not there yet. In the meantime, we must carry on knowing the difference between biological men and biological women. Those who try to disguise that are enacting a betrayal on a very deep, literally visceral level. It's a betrayal society can currently absorb... but an individual within that society may not, with any ease of mind, be able to.
We have exceptions to pretty much every distinction between the genders you choose to point to, though.

Does woman who has had her ovaries and uterus removed due to cancer cease to be a woman?
Does a woman whose ovaries do not work mean that she was never a woman?

This is where the biological essentialism comes into play: by creating a hard break between man and woman along those lines, it fails to adequately depict the myriad of inbetweens our lack of sexual dimorphism reproduces.
That's an opinion. One I'd agree with, without giving it overlong consideration, but it leaves out one rather important question - why?
That's a great question, but not really one for this thread or the SRP, really. It'd be a hoot over in Science.

I'm also unqualified to discuss biology. When I studied science, I was thoroughly more interested in physics and chemistry because I wanted - until I was around 14-15, before my mother pushed me to English - to be an astronomer. While I've continued reading and I've read enough to run with in here, I am not a biologist and as such I'm pretty careful just how far I'm willing to commit to a position on the science.
Perhaps more importantly - why now? One question we do not - and may not ever - know the answer to is the historic prevalence of gender dimorphism itself. I'm aware there are plenty spruiking the old "always has been, always will be" line, and while that may or may not be true, the question of prevalence is not fully answered. Those who say that prevalence is only becoming evident now due to permissiveness have an answer, but I don't necessarily believe they have the whole answer.
There are quite a few species who change sex at need. It's often a reaction to environment - and note here I'm not confining that to the physical environment. How much that point applies here I can't really say with any real authority, but the oft-espoused unchanging quality of mankind and it's assumed utter removal from the rest of the "natural" world as put forward in this instance has to be viewed with doubt.
It's always funny to me that people think humans are above evolution. Our evolution never stopped and continues to happen; the only difference is that we shape the environment that continues to shape us.

Test scores are slowly improving. Younger people are becoming more socially adept, and they're learning source verification at much lower ages. Natural selection is still choosing; the difference is that it's choosing more and more diversely (I say without an ounce of proof). More humans are surviving, and more traits are surviving.
We are becoming more god-like, but we are not gods.
I don't think anyone with even a modicum of knowledge (not only evolutionary, but psychological) could unequivocally say that humanity is the same as it has always been.
Unless, of course, you're some sort of creationist. I often have a bit of a giggle at those who claim to be atheists and then turn around and deny evolution in the next breath. It's a part of that inconsistency I often speak of. I'm aware of the ramifications of the either/or there, but for the life of me I can't really think of a third option.
I've always been a low key fan of a deistic position: god exists but doesn't care. Abandoned creation after having created it. Moved on to the next thing.
Of course it does. We're a complicated species, and any tech will tell you the more complicated the machine, the more chances there are that something can go wrong. An interesting complication to that is that in a very complicated machine, something can go wrong and the machine is still able to function, provided what went wrong wasn't catastrophic.
There's a choice of words. "Go Wrong". If considered from a purely evolutionary point of view, those words are correct. It's only in modern times we can take that knowledge and consider the why or the how. And it is society, specifically our modern society, which will take umbrage at the very thought those words could even apply.
... evolution can't 'go wrong'. To go wrong implies value, and there's no value inherent in it beyond humble survival.

There's also the reality that to an extent, we can counter certain potential problems with medicine. ABO incompatibility causes two otherwise fertile humans to struggle to have children; a blood transfusion can get that off the ground. A lesbian couple can arrange for sperm donation, a homosexual man couple can arrange a surrogate.

A man can save their sperm in their twenties and get a vasectomy and have children later in life. Elon Musk can have ****ing 20 children and spend the rest of his life masturbating furiously to save up as much of his sperm as he can to ensure that he's still having children long after he's dead (and you know he probably plans to do just that, given his views on pronatalism).

The point as far as evolution is concerned is passing your genes from one generation to the next. Provided you can do that, there is no 'wrong'.
I've already started considering the response I'm guessing you're going to throw at me, if you do. I have a feeling you're going to have, at face value at least, some rather good arguments which will garner you lots of likes from the usual suspects. There was, as per usual, a lot I had to leave out by way of clarification, and of course there are always going to be those who will argue that getting "affirmative" surgery on an otherwise physically healthy child is comparable to getting a cavity filled.

But I want to leave it with this.

Currently, the surgical and chemical "affirmation" being done to children that we have the scientific capability to do, but without full understanding of consequence, is narcissistic Mengele-level experimentation which fills me with absolute horror.
I find it quite annoying that I probably won't live long enough to find out what the eventual results will be. I can only hope future generations don't come to view it all as a sort of social equivalent of Thalidomide.
I come to my final impression when I read your post this morning.

What a curious, individual position!

You haven't once tried really to argue against the mental health concerns of trans people, nor have you really argued that they shouldn't be allowed to transition. What you've said is that you're against transitioning until the process is as close to creating biological sex as possible (as in, when they can create ovum and sperm within a person who would by birth generate neither) and that before that point doing what society does as gender affirming care - the surgical stuff and the puberty blockers - is vile.

This is such a... different take, I can't help but be curious, want to know more. But before we get there, I'd like to know a few things:
  • on what basis do you declare that puberty blockers have long term affects worthy of a comparison to Thalidomide? Do you have the medical background capable of making that a valid comparison?
  • at what age would you be comfortable - given that, with parental consent, someone can get plastic surgery only once they've turned 18 in America, 21 in some states; 18 over here - would you be comfortable with the series of cosmetic surgeries that some trans people need to take to transition?
  • do the mental health considerations count for much in your eyes?
 

Augusta University: Gender Dysphoria in Transsexual People Has Biological Basis​

Iliriana Bisha Tagani MD
The Gender dysphoria that occurs in some transgender persons can be explained by the concentration of a basic hormone that the brain receives in the uterus and during the first years of life.

Trangenderism is a sensitive issue because people who experience it have a connection to their sexual identity that does not necessarily correspond to the sex that nature has given them. A study, the first of its kind published in the journal Scientific Reports, believes it has identified biological evidence of a discrepancy between the sexual identity perceived by the brain and that developed by the body in transgender people. To better understand this difference, researchers from the University of Augusta have studied the genomes of 30 transgender individuals, focusing on the pathways of estrogen receptors in the brain.

The hormone issue​

The team of the research author, Dr. John Graham Theisen, gynecologist and obstetrician and researcher in women’s reproductive health at the National Institutes of Health at the Augusta University, has identified 21 variants in 19 genes in the estrogenic signaling pathways of the brain that are necessary to determine whether the brain is male or female. These genes are involved in the mass release of hormones, including estrogens, into the brain shortly before or after birth, which contribute to the “masculinization” or “feminization” of the brain.

Read Also: Sexual Orientation in Men Can Affect the Intestinal Flora Which Can Raise the Risk of HIV Infection

In the variants identified by the researchers, these estrogen exposures do not occur in male-born men, or the signaling pathway is altered, which does not “masculinize” the brain. Similarly, in women, if estrogen exposure occurs when it should not, could lead to masculinization.

Both phenomena would lead to so-called sexual dysphoria, a feeling of inadequacy between the inner and outer sex of the individual. In other words, sexual dysphoria is characterized by a feeling of discomfort that some people may experience when they feel “trapped” in a gender they cannot identify with.

For Thiesen, the gender identity to which the brain refers is unchanged, and treatments such as hormone therapy or surgery are designed to help the body adapt to the brain’s ideal.

For Dr. Lawrence Layman, head of the Department of Reproductive Endocrinology, Infertility and Genetics at Georgia College of Medicine, time is of the essence. “It doesn’t matter what genitals you have, it’s important that estrogen and androgens, which are converted to estrogen in the brain, masculinize the brain at this critical time. We have found genes that are important in some of these different areas of the brain”.

Scientists say that although the critical period for brain masculinization may seem late, the development of the brain continues long after birth. When estrogen arrives, pathways and receptors must be established.

The researchers examined the DNA of 30 adult volunteers who identified themselves as transsexual and diagnosed sexual dysphoria based on the DSM-V criteria. These included 13 transgender men born as women and in transition to men and 17 transgender women born as men and in transition to women.

The Yale Genome Analysis Center performed an analysis of their entire genome by sequencing the protein coding regions of the gene. This analysis was then confirmed by Sanger sequencing, the method used to detect gene variants. The variants found did not occur in the group of 88 control tests on non-transgender individuals that were also examined at Yale. In addition, these variants were missing or very rare in large control DNA databases.

For these researchers, one of the factors that could explain sexual dysphoria could be estradiol, the basic estrogen that we all produce very briefly in the perinatal phase (between the 22nd week of the missing maternal menstrual period and the first week of childbirth). In this phase, the short-term release of estradiol would lead to two possibilities: Either the signaling pathways would be activated by estrogen receptors, resulting in a “male brain”, or – since the ovaries are at rest in pregnant women – a lack of estrogen receptor stimulation would result in a “female brain”.

The biological basis of sexual dysphoria​

For Lawrence Layman, who has 20 years of experience in dealing with transgender patients, there is a biological basis for sexual dysphoria in most cases. His colleague, John Graham Thiesen, agrees. “We certainly believe that for most people suffering from sexual dysphoria there is a biological component. We want to understand what the genetic component of sexual identity is”.

According to the researchers, although genetics has been identified as a factor in sexual dysphoria, it has not yet been proven. Most of the genes or gene variants studied earlier were related to androgen receptors, i.e. hormones traditionally associated with male characteristics but also present in women, such as estrogen in men.

Therefore, the scientists focused on the little-known aspect of gender-specific brain development, namely the estrogen bath required by the brain in the early stages of life in order to identify potential sites of significant genetic variation. Initially, DNA tests revealed over 120,000 variants, 21 of which were associated with estrogenic pathways.

Animal testing​

The team of scientists based their investigations partly on a 2008 rat study, which identified four brain areas whose developmental pathways are related to the development of the male or female brain. Based on these findings, the scientists assumed that it could be the same in humans. Other studies, this time on primates during adolescence, also showed that disruption of these pathways leads to trans behavior. According to Lawrence Layman, many people report feelings of gender inadequacy as early as five years of age.

While gender-specific brain development in men has not been studied in detail, the effects are more pronounced in adolescence. Increased sexual awareness at this stage makes it easier to express sexual dysphoria in adolescents. Similarly, previous studies have shown that perinatal exposure to sex hormones can influence future sexual behavior. The majority of the data are from studies in women with classic congenital adrenal hyperplasia from birth. This rare genetic disorder, which causes abnormal production of hormones (especially androgens) before birth, leads to varying degrees of external virilization of the genitals. In these women the rate of sexual dysphoria reaches 3%, compared to 0.2% in women who are not affected by the disease. On the other hand, the data available for men are not sufficient to determine the trend, which the scientists deplore.

According to John Graham Theisen, genetic variations are responsible for our individual characteristics, such as eye color, and gender is as unique and diverse as other characteristics, which usually do not cause disease.

Increasing stigma​

In the United States, researchers estimate that about 0.5-1.4% of men and 0.2-0.3% of women are born with sexual dysphoria. True” (identical) twins are more prone to this condition than “fraternal” twins.

The lives of transsexual people are often marked by discrimination and sexual violence, which can lead to depression, drug addiction and suicide. In a 2010 U.S. national survey on discrimination against transgender people, 26% of transgender people admitted to drinking or using alcohol or drugs, and 19% refused medical care. In the same report, 28% of respondents reported verbal harassment in the medical community or at insurance companies that do not cover the cost of hormone therapy or affirmative-action surgery. Finally, 41% of respondents reported that they tried to commit suicide, compared to 1.6% of the total population. For researchers, this discrimination is due to a lack of understanding of the biological basis of sexual dysphoria.

A study on body-brain mismatch was conducted on 30 people, and researchers say they have data on another 30 people. Although the study, which is partly funded by the Eunice Kennedy Shriver National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, appears to be the largest to date, its findings were considered preliminary.

References​

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53500-y

https://www.publish.csiro.au/sh/SH17067

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/102/11/3869/4157558

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The blanket ban on transgender athletes, which is what those U.S State house bills proposed ensuring that male-to-female transgender athletes cannot compete as women no matter what, was completely opposed by Professor Coleman.

From the protest letter she co-signed against her research being misused by conservative sponsors of those bills;



Restrictions on a case-by-case basis where advantage is clear is fair enough, but an absolute ban on ALL trans athletes competing as the gender which they want to live their lives as?

Not on.
 

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It seems some US States and International Associations have differing rules, or no rules at the moment.

Puberty blockers seem a big commitment to make for under 12s year old's, but accepted facts are there is a "wide and complete" bimodal separation in the normal range of testosterone in adult male bodies (7.7nmol/L to 29.4nmol/L) and in adult females (0.06nmol/L to 1.68nmol/L).

The data show that 99% of females with PCOS have testosterone levels of less than 3.47nmol/L - a level at which the ergogenic impact of testosterone is normally "extremely limited."


This takes into account differing levels of testosterone in adult males with a complete "bimodal separation", is there evidence of post puberty male levels being below 7.7nmol/L or around 3.47nmol/L?
 
It seems some US States and International Associations have differing rules, or no rules at the moment.

Puberty blockers seem a big commitment to make for under 12s year old's, but accepted facts are there is a "wide and complete" bimodal separation in the normal range of testosterone in adult male bodies (7.7nmol/L to 29.4nmol/L) and in adult females (0.06nmol/L to 1.68nmol/L).

The data show that 99% of females with PCOS have testosterone levels of less than 3.47nmol/L - a level at which the ergogenic impact of testosterone is normally "extremely limited."
XX women with PCOS are the most common disorder among elite female athletes with high T (approx 37%) in elite women’s sports.

Female athletes bodies of such athletes with PCOS are more anabolic, with a greater amount of muscle mass and higher bone mineral density than other F athletes.

Research has identified endurance athletes with PCOS perform significantly better in the Beep test and exhibit higher maximal oxygen uptake (VO2 max) during the treadmill exhaustion test than other female athletes with the same BMI.

Androgen levels were positively correlated to VO2 max and lean mass in the same study, Rickenlund A, et al. (2003).

In another case-control study involving 40 sedentary women with PCOS and 40 controls, those with PCOS showed greater muscle strength (bench press, leg extension and handgrip strength), irrespective of body composition Kogure GS, et al. (2015).

Serum levels of testosterone correlated positively with increased muscle strength in the PCOS group.

Furthermore, polycystic ovaries and PCOS are overrepresented among Olympic sportswomen, as well as other athletic populations.

These observations indicate that mild forms of hyperandrogenism such as PCOS may improve physical performance and thereby play a role in the decision by women to participate in competitive sports.

There is no support for the reverse causality, that is, participation in sports elevates the incidence of polycystic ovaries or PCOS.
 
Do you have an answer or not?
I’m genuinely asking. Who’s still discriminating as we head into 2025?
Who do you think has stopped discriminating?
 
So now we have actual statistics from the ABS: transgender and gender-diverse people make 0.9% of Australians 16 and over. It'd be nice if people stopped getting worked up about such a small percentage of the population existing, and just let them be.
The small population size is one of the reasons they are going after trans rights.

It makes them an easier target because less people directly know someone who is trans.

It's the tip of the spear the reactionaries love a bit of divide and conquer to roll back rights

The same as they haven't stopped in the US with Roe v Wade they won't stop with legislating against trans people
 
So now we have actual statistics from the ABS: transgender and gender-diverse people make 0.9% of Australians 16 and over. It'd be nice if people stopped getting worked up about such a small percentage of the population existing, and just let them be.

Alternatively, if we're only talking about 0.9% of the population why is it up to the other 99.1% to change? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, so says Mr Spock.

For example, 'if you have a penis use the men's toilets, if you don't don't' is not a wildly unreasonable position. Society managed to cope with that distinction fine for a long time. In that scenario if trans women (of which there is no distinct definition, can be anything from a post op MTF person or a man in a dress) want to use women's bathrooms, play women's sports etc. you are effectively asking half the population to be OK with that. Doesn't really impact men that much as not many women trans or otherwise want to go anywhere near a male bathroom or play men's sport.

How many women 'accept' trans women as women? All of them? 50%? 20%? In a smaller setting it is different because no minority is even distributed throughout society. A workplace of 50 people might have a trans person or two or none, but it won't have 0.45 of one. And everyone may be accepting and accommodating of that person that they know, but doesn't translate to broader society. Just because your sports team all agree that a trans player should play with them doesn't mean all other teams or the league will.

Anyone who thinks that people can decide what gender/sex they are and everyone else has to go along with it or "discrimination" needs to get out more.
 
I dunno, what’s why I asked the question. We’re almost in 2025. How could anyone possibly be wasting their time caring if someone else, whom they don’t even know, is trans or not.
You really don't understand why bigots still exist heading into 2025?
 
Alternatively, if we're only talking about 0.9% of the population why is it up to the other 99.1% to change? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, so says Mr Spock.

For example, 'if you have a penis use the men's toilets, if you don't don't' is not a wildly unreasonable position. Society managed to cope with that distinction fine for a long time. In that scenario if trans women (of which there is no distinct definition, can be anything from a post op MTF person or a man in a dress) want to use women's bathrooms, play women's sports etc. you are effectively asking half the population to be OK with that. Doesn't really impact men that much as not many women trans or otherwise want to go anywhere near a male bathroom or play men's sport.

How many women 'accept' trans women as women? All of them? 50%? 20%? In a smaller setting it is different because no minority is even distributed throughout society. A workplace of 50 people might have a trans person or two or none, but it won't have 0.45 of one. And everyone may be accepting and accommodating of that person that they know, but doesn't translate to broader society. Just because your sports team all agree that a trans player should play with them doesn't mean all other teams or the league will.

Anyone who thinks that people can decide what gender/sex they are and everyone else has to go along with it or "discrimination" needs to get out more.

So you want some kind of genital inspection officer stationed outside of toilets?
 

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Transgender - Part 2

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