Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Chief]

I’m trying to find a logic where I can say “trans/ gay people are because they say they are” yet still be able to dump on the MAGA types as the ignorant ones

The latter is based on ignorance. Start from there, I suppose.

 

[Gralin]

Not sure that there would have been many Practioners in the regional areas doing this privately though.

Even less chance now

 

[Gralin]

Does it not still mean it is a self identified characteristic? Which the external observer should not challenge.

The MAGA sheep seem to hold their internal characteristics (a fundamental being reality denial) just as intensely, I’m trying to find a logic where I can say “trans/ gay people are because they say they are” yet still be able to dump on the MAGA types as the ignorant ones

Couple or things here.

Literally every single person self IDs whether they realise it or not.

Whether they've ever given much thought to it or not.

Heteronormative means the societal default is you're cisgender and straight.

People that fit into that never have to question it.

Suggesting supporting self id means you have to support MAGA peoples definitions is offensive.

People don't choose to be gay or trans.

People do choose to be religious or conservative or liberal. Racist, homophobic, who they vote for, that's a choice.

You can influence peoples politics, their world views their ideology.

You can't externally influence their sexuality or their gender. You can influence them to hide it, but it doesn't change who they are in their self.

So no, I don't have to accept the ideology of MAGAs or antivaxxers or white supremacists, politicians, etc because they say they believe it, because it's their view about others, not themselves.

You tell me you're racist or homophobic I'll take your word for it.

You tell me blacks are inferior or gays are going to hell and I'll tell you to **** off.

Self Id is about yourself.

 

[faible]

People do choose to be religious or conservative or liberal. Racist, homophobic, who they vote for, that's a choice.

Not entirely true, it's generally passed down from the parents. Religion is very insidious that way, gets people in young to indoctrinate them not to think critically about stuff.

Religion being removed from schooling would be the death kneel for organised religion as a major part of society IMO, very few people would look at what it purports as an adult and think 'yeah, that does seem pretty likely'.

There's a reason belief in creationism and belief in conspiracy theories are highly correlated, it both relies on the same thought processes (or lack thereof).

So it's a choice in some sense, but not necessarily an informed one made by the individual.

I do find it interesting how we're happy to hammer Christian's for believing in a sky fairy, but when it comes to say, Aboriginal Australians, we're pretty keen to accept their beliefs as important and valid. But that's a topic for another thread.

 

[Bloods86]

Not entirely true, it's generally passed down from the parents. Religion is very insidious that way, gets people in young to indoctrinate them not to think critically about stuff.

Religion being removed from schooling would be the death kneel for organised religion as a major part of society IMO, very few people would look at what it purports as an adult and think 'yeah, that does seem pretty likely'.

There's a reason belief in creationism and belief in conspiracy theories are highly correlated, it both relies on the same thought processes (or lack thereof).

So it's a choice in some sense, but not necessarily an informed one made by the individual.

I do find it interesting how we're happy to hammer Christian's for believing in a sky fairy, but when it comes to say, Aboriginal Australians, we're pretty keen to accept their beliefs as important and valid. But that's a topic for another thread.

As a former creationist, as with any religious belief, I'd argue it's the same thought processes, you are just bound within a smaller box of things you're allowed to consider and accept as valid inputs. Anyway, off topic.

As for Aboriginal myth and dreaming, I'd say we don't react the same way because they aren't using it to control others personal lives according to their beliefs. Other than say preventing environmental or historical destruction of certain sites, which can be rationalised anyway.

 

[Gralin]

Not entirely true, it's generally passed down from the parents. Religion is very insidious that way, gets people in young to indoctrinate them not to think critically about stuff.

I agree about indoctrination.
but you can break from it or come to it later in life.
In that sense it is a choice.
It's something that can be externally influenced which was my point.

Religion being removed from schooling would be the death kneel for organised religion as a major part of society IMO, very few people would look at what it purports as an adult and think 'yeah, that does seem pretty likely'.

You'd think that but people are always searching for answers and reasons and religion offers that.

Right or wrong, whether formal religion or spirituality people need ways to make sense of the universe.

I know people that were raised in religion that follow it still

Were raised religious and hate it now

And I know people that had life tragedies and ended up at a church when they weren't raised that way.

Organised religion is certainly having a harder time recruiting and they definitely target kids for the reasons you mention above.

The fact they talk like gays do the same is more telling on themselves than anything else

But it is certainly used to damage LGBTQI rights and reputation.

There's a reason belief in creationism and belief in conspiracy theories are highly correlated, it both relies on the same thought processes (or lack thereof).

Yes and it's also why the alt right target, recruit and thrive in these environments.

Why wellness people become antivaxxers and then end up sharing nazi propaganda on their channels (hello Pete Evans)

So it's a choice in some sense, but not necessarily an informed one made by the individual.

Agree 100%

I do find it interesting how we're happy to hammer Christian's for believing in a sky fairy, but when it comes to say, Aboriginal Australians, we're pretty keen to accept their beliefs as important and valid. But that's a topic for another thread.

I agree with bloods, it's about the difference between spiritual fullfilment for the person vs external control of society.

I have no problem with individuals that believe in god. I have no problems with a church that actually preaches and walks the talk on acceptance.

I know people that wouldn't accept assisted dying if terminal because they believe they'd go to hell but they don't think others should be denied that choice.

I'm totally on board with that kind of view, it's their choice for themselves and they aren't forcing their choice on others via laws.

I don't agree with their reasoning but they're not impacting you or me.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I’m trying to find a logic where I can say “trans/ gay people are because they say they are” yet still be able to dump on the MAGA types as the ignorant ones

I argue the point from a human rights perspective. We each of us should have the right to be happy in our lives and to pursue that happiness as long as we don't impact others negatively in those pursuits.

If one is uncomfortable in the skin they're in, for WHATEVER reason, then they should have the inalienable right to change that circumstance.

 

[Crankyhawk]

I argue the point from a human rights perspective. We each of us should have the right to be happy in our lives and to pursue that happiness as long as we don't impact others negatively in those pursuits.

If one is uncomfortable in the skin they're in, for WHATEVER reason, then they should have the inalienable right to change that circumstance.

And therefore because the MAGA types impact others negatively that is the distinction! Thank you!

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

You were the one that decided to focus the entire discussion on pronouns my guy.

Well that and how you don't really believe them so you're not interested in helping them

Exhibit A.

For such a bright guy, it’s incredible how difficult you apparently find it to bring yourself to argue the substance.

Only ever the method.

Question that, and you apparently feel you’ve dealt with a topic.


Still, I guess it means you can safely divide your world into goodies and baddies.

Now, if only the real world remotely resembled that.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Yeah

‘Kay.

I kinda think human rights are about a hell of a lot more than good manners.

 

[Gralin]

Exhibit A.

For such a bright guy, it’s incredible how difficult you apparently find it to bring yourself to argue the substance.

Only ever the method.

Question that, and you apparently feel you’ve dealt with a topic.


Still, I guess it means you can safely divide your world into goodies and baddies.

Now, if only the real world remotely resembled that.

Do you actually support trans rights?

Because you spend a lot of time arguing why people shouldn't bother

 

[mcnulty]

Do you actually support trans rights?

Well trans rights means different things to different people. You obviously consider it the right to bash people who disagree with you. I suspect his moral footing is somewhat sounder than yours.

 

[mcnulty]

Well trans rights means different things to different people. You obviously consider it the right to bash people who disagree with you. I suspect his moral footing is somewhat sounder than yours.

Funny, Gralin? You said it just the other day.

So bwaaaave.

 

[Gralin]

Well trans rights means different things to different people. You obviously consider it the right to bash people who disagree with you. I suspect his moral footing is somewhat sounder than yours.

No that's got nothing to do with trans rights.

Thats more me being comfortable with oppressed people fighting back.

 

[mcnulty]

No that's got nothing to do with trans rights.

Thats more me being comfortable with oppressed people fighting back.

So who decides who deserves bashing?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Do you actually support trans rights?

Because you spend a lot of time arguing why people shouldn't bother

Exhibit B. Question the motives of people that disagree with you.

Yes, shocking as it may be to you, I do support trans rights.

My argument all along (and on the Greens thread, where the topic comes up with monotonous regularity), is that other issues are far more important.

And there are only so many hours in a day, so by definition, something has to give.

Please desist from deliberately misrepresenting my position and relentlessly questioning my motives. You are a mod after all. Perhaps you could contribute to raising the standard of discourse on BF by leading by example.

 

[Gethelred]

I do find it interesting how we're happy to hammer Christian's for believing in a sky fairy, but when it comes to say, Aboriginal Australians, we're pretty keen to accept their beliefs as important and valid. But that's a topic for another thread.

I kind of object to this some, due to the fact that Aboriginal religion/culture (what I know about it, at least; I'm not an expert and it's a fraught exercise to generalise across the 100's of first nations cultures out there) is more a synergy of geography/mapmaking, husbandry, religion and codified cultural practice than a purely religious phenomena anyway.

Some of it's superstition; some of it's verbal maps made memorable through poetry and song; some of it's observational science hidden behind religious verbage. It's too variable and - frankly - practically useful to really be labelled equivalent to westernised religion.

You are correct though that it's off topic in here, though. Perhaps a conversation in a more pertinent thread if you wanted to continue it.

 

[Gralin]

Exhibit B. Question the motives of people that disagree with you.

Yes, shocking as it may be to you, I do support trans rights.

My argument all along (and on the Greens thread, where the topic comes up with monotonous regularity), is that other issues are far more important.

And there are only so many hours in a day, so by definition, something has to give.

Please desist from deliberately misrepresenting my position and relentless questioning my motives. You are a mod after all. Perhaps you could contribute to raising the standard of discourse on BF by leading by example.

So you support trans rights, just not enough to actually support them.

You'd rather advocate for people to ignore the problem.

But you think that shouldn't be part of the discussion?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Do you actually support trans rights?

Because you spend a lot of time arguing why people shouldn't bother

And one more point. I have NEVER argued that “people shouldn’t bother”.

I have only ever argued that a lot of people don’t care very much about trans rights.

 

[Engimal v3]

I do find it interesting how we're happy to hammer Christian's for believing in a sky fairy, but when it comes to say, Aboriginal Australians, we're pretty keen to accept their beliefs as important and valid. But that's a topic for another thread.

Who's we? About a third of the world is Christian and you don't have to look far to find people shitting on Aboriginals.

 

[Gralin]

So who decides who deserves bashing?

Like I said, do you think gay bashings don't still happen?

You think trans people don't get harrassed and assaulted just for being trans?

You're complaining about a minority saying they're going to fight back.

Against the people pushing the hate agenda.

Of course it's not just trans people that end up as victims of that agenda.

Two Cisgender People Were Killed in Separate Attacks Motivated by Transphobia

It's a reminder that transphobia doesn't just affect trans people.

www.them.us

 

[Engimal v3]

Exhibit B. Question the motives of people that disagree with you.

Yes, shocking as it may be to you, I do support trans rights.

My argument all along (and on the Greens thread, where the topic comes up with monotonous regularity), is that other issues are far more important.

And there are only so many hours in a day, so by definition, something has to give.

Please desist from deliberately misrepresenting my position and relentless questioning my motives. You are a mod after all. Perhaps you could contribute to raising the standard of discourse on BF by leading by example.

You could say this about literally anything though. It's the "kids starving in Africa" argument lol

 

[mcnulty]

Like I said, do you think gay bashings don't still happen?

What an utterly ridiculous piece of sophistry. Bashings of any kind should denounced. That you seem incapable of grasping this shows you really can’t see past the end of your nose.

 

[mcnulty]

And the laughing emoji is a poor coping strategy…

But I’ll ask again, since you clearly advocate violence. Who decides who gets bashed in your world?

 

[Gralin]

What an utterly ridiculous piece of sophistry. Bashings of any kind should denounced. That you seem incapable of grasping this shows you really can’t see past the end of your nose.

You're a hoot.

Violence is used every day to oppress people.

Change, real change generally doesn't happen without dealing with that, fighting back is common and peaceful protest is not the way.

If you think this is the first time queer people have talked like this you've paid zero attention queer to history.

If you think it's all about peaceful protest you haven't paid attention to any history.