Transgender

[ShanDog]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

It would still be robbing athletes and the countries that they represented of their moment of glory on the medal dais. Does anyone know or remember or care who the female sprinters were that received their medals years after Marion Jones was finally stripped of her Gold medals?

That's a fair point. They'd get due recognition and the medal but yeah. No dais and no national anthem. I suppose either way someone is going to be denied. If they are barred without hard science facts and figures there will always be that 'What if...' question from someone, won't there? Once the facts are in there will be no denying them from either camp.

 

[Taylor]

But they also need the hard data over many years to acompany that. A world record or two at one competitive meet, are they an anomaly? An outlier? If there is an advantage for a period after gender reassignment but this advantage drops year after subsequent year, will there come a year when said advantage is nill or close to it? And is that then decided as the point in time trans athletes can compete as the gender they identify as?

The world record is the result of decades of women athletes

 

[Andrew Birch]

That's a fair point. They'd get due recognition and the medal but yeah. No dais and no national anthem. I suppose either way someone is going to be denied. If they are barred without hard science facts and figures there will always be that 'What if...' question from someone, won't there? Once the facts are in there will be no denying them from either camp.

Not only that, many sporting bodies funding is also dependent on how successful their athletes are at international level. And what about the huge financial endorsements and commercial opportunities for athletes that often come soon after winning Olympic gold? I can't see Nike retrospectively signing up retired athletes on multi million dollar contracts because as it turns out they were the real world champion of a 100 metre race from 10 years ago.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

And how would you deliver that news to female athletes - now - who are convinced that some trans athletes are taking advantage of being able to identify as women to compete against females even though they are biologically male? How do you think they'd receive that news?

Hang about - are you suggesting that there are people who seriously believe that there are people having their penises sliced, diced and inverted JUST to compete as women?

Really?

You're advocating suppressing some women's positions for the sake of a very small minority "just in case they don't have an advantage". How would you explain to the growing number of female athletes who are disheartened when the findings ten years down the track display that biological male trans athletes actually do have an advantage? How do you think they'd receive that new?

I'd suspect they'd look at the revised figures, punch the air and thing 'Hot damn, I WAS the best!'

The rise of trans athletes is in it's infancy and I'm all for progress as long as it's practical, this is not one of them because it's far reaching to appease a very small number and could be considered discriminatory against biological female athletes - if not already.

How about it's proven one way or the other THEN trans can compete as females if they wish and is proven they don't have an advantage. That seems a much more logical solution.

Let me put it this way, I'm more for inclusion than exclusion but this could equally work. Thing is, Trans athletes NEED to compete against the gender they identify as and this data logged and studied. From the grass roots to the very top level. Extrapolating data from lower-level comps will only get you so far.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

The world record is the result of decades of women athletes

So this is more of a 'fear the unknown' than anything else? That's fair enough - fearing the unknown is hardwired into most of us. The International Olympic Committee itself used to be horrified at the very thought of women at the Olympics

Women's Olympic Games

The Women's World Games was an event which consisted of several competitions, similar to the Olympics, conducted only for women participants between 1922 and 1934. The sole reason the event was established was to address the lack of women's athletic competitions in the Olympic Games.

The event was founded by Alice Milliat after the IOC refused to include women's track and field events in the Olympics. Milliat set up the Fédération Sportive Féminine Internationale (FSFI) to oversee the operations of the Women's Games.

A trial event was initially held in Monte Carlo in 1921 after which the main games were conducted for the first time in Paris in 1922. The event was held four times between 1922 and 1934 and was later discontinued after women's athletic events were widely included from the 1936 Olympics onwards.

The Paris event held in 1922 was initially known as Women's Olympic Games. After the IOC objected (to) the use of Olympics as part of the event's title, the event's name was changed to Women's World Games. After three editions the event was held for the last time in 1934 in London in which athletes from 19 countries took part...

How far we've come, eh? Dare we go a little bit further?

 

[its free real estate]

So this is more of a 'fear the unknown' than anything else? That's fair enough - fearing the unknown is hardwired into most of us. The International Olympic Committee itself used to be horrified at the very thought of women at the Olympics



How far we've come, eh? Dare we go a little bit further?

This is why I don’t buy your “good faith” argument. You see every step as part of an ongoing liberation. Reversing that would be an anathema to you.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Not only that, many sporting bodies funding is also dependent on how successful their athletes are at international level. And what about the huge financial endorsements and commercial opportunities for athletes that often come soon after winning Olympic gold? I can't see Nike retrospectively signing up retired athletes on multi million dollar contracts because as it turns out they were the real world champion of a 100 metre race from 10 years ago.

Even silver and bronzies get endorsements though don't they? I know what you're saying but it's not like only the goldies get noticed...

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

This is why I don’t buy your “good faith” argument. You see every step as part of an ongoing liberation. Reversing that would be an anathema to you.

You're anticipating my reaction again rather than waiting to see what the real deal is. You don't know me at all

 

[its free real estate]

Even silver and bronzies get endorsements though don't they?

Lol no. You are so out of your depth here.

 

[Lethality]

Are you upset that Mouncey was banned from playing AFLW? The lad was as big as Jonathan Brown

A lot of biological females are bigger than biological males.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Hang about - are you suggesting that there are people who seriously believe that there are people having their penises sliced, diced and inverted JUST to compete as women?

Really?

No I'm not suggesting that but I'm sure there are some born female athletes that would. In any case it's very convenient for a born male to compete at an advantage (possibly) against born females

I'd suspect they'd look at the revised figures, punch the air and thing 'Hot damn, I WAS the best!'

But that's not the point and you know it, to ensure a level playing field is the true measure.

Let me put it this way, I'm more for inclusion than exclusion but this could equally work. Thing is, Trans athletes NEED to compete against the gender they identify as and this data logged and studied. From the grass roots to the very top level. Extrapolating data from lower-level comps will only get you so far.

It already does work females v females, males v males. Greying the area for the sake of including a very small minority is wanting for a better term "putting the cart before the horse" it's possible that it is not a level playing field.

Prove it first then let trans compete against born females.

 

[Carringbush2010]

A lot of biological females are bigger than biological males.

That's an exception to the rule and you know it.

 

[Lethality]

That's an exception to the rule and you know it.

There's too many to be an exception. But there's nothing wrong with being big, women are allowed to be tall and strong too.

 

[Carringbush2010]

There's too many to be an exception. But there's nothing wrong with being big, women are allowed to be tall and strong too.

Ah no, the general rule in the mammalian kingdom is that males are by and large bigger and stronger. You're talking about a minority of women here - clutching at straws.

 

[Lethality]

Ah no, the general rule in the mammalian kingdom is that males are by and large bigger and stronger. You're talking about a minority of women here - clutching at straws.

Athletes are a minority too. Bigger, stronger, faster than the rest of us.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Let me put it this way, I'm more for inclusion than exclusion but this could equally work

Also if you're for inclusion as you say then why are you advocating for athletes that may have an unfair advantage? Why are you not including women?

 

[Carringbush2010]

Athletes are a minority too. Bigger, stronger, faster than the rest of us.

Well now you really are drawing a long bow.

 

[quotemokc]

 

[Connoisseur]

A lot of biological females are bigger than biological males.

I'm reasonably confident that even a woman who's several inches taller than another male, say for example 6'8 Liz Cambage, would have great difficulty physically overcoming/besting an average male under 6 feet tall. Testosterone, rather than height, accounts for why males are physically stronger and faster than women. The exception of a woman (i.e. Ronda Rousey at her peak in her UFC years) being realistically capable of posing a physical threat to a man are very few and far between. Most tall women I know (around 5'10 and 6') are lanky, uncoordinated and fairly weak when it comes to physical strength that even an average man under 5'9 would not have much of a problem physically manhandling and subduing them if necessary. No that there are many women that tall anyway. Males over 6' make up about 15% of the total male population and 6' tall women probably consist less than 5% (maybe as low as 3%) of the total female population.

 

[Lethality]

I'm reasonably confident that even a woman who's several inches taller than another male, say for example 6'8 Liz Cambage, would have great difficulty physically overcoming/besting an average male under 6 feet tall. Testosterone, rather than height, accounts for why males are physically stronger and faster than women. The exception of a woman (i.e. Ronda Rousy at her peak in her UFC years) being realistically capable of posing a physical threat to a man are very few and far between. Most tall women I know (around 5'10 and 6') are lanky, uncoordinated and fairly weak when it comes to physical strength that even an average man under 5'9 would not have much of a problem physically manhandling and subduing them if necessary. No that there are many women that tall anyway. Males over 6' make up about 15% of the total male population and 6' tall women probably consist less than 5% (maybe as low as 3%) of the total female population.

I don't think they allow that level of testosterone for bio males in competition.

 

[Snake_Baker]

How have I proven that? Show me the hard science.

Get off your lazy arse and utilise the excellent search engine that the designers of this website have kindly provided for you.

 

[Snake_Baker]

 

[Andrew Birch]

I'm reasonably confident that even a woman who's several inches taller than another male, say for example 6'8 Liz Cambage, would have great difficulty physically overcoming/besting an average male under 6 feet tall. Testosterone, rather than height, accounts for why males are physically stronger and faster than women. The exception of a woman (i.e. Ronda Rousey at her peak in her UFC years) being realistically capable of posing a physical threat to a man are very few and far between. Most tall women I know (around 5'10 and 6') are lanky, uncoordinated and fairly weak when it comes to physical strength that even an average man under 5'9 would not have much of a problem physically manhandling and subduing them if necessary. No that there are many women that tall anyway. Males over 6' make up about 15% of the total male population and 6' tall women probably consist less than 5% (maybe as low as 3%) of the total female population.

But Rousey wasn't even a threat to women of her own size that have striking ability when she was at her peak, let alone men. She was pummeled by both Holm & Nunez via their superior striking ability. Her idiot coach and shills like Rogan sprouting rubbish that she could pound for pound beat half the men on the roster and outbox Floyd Maywether was beyond stupid. Rousey had a dream run when there wasn't a lot of quality female opposition. She had elite judo, grappling & submission skills and was super aggressive, but I wouldn't say she was physically superior to the other females. She would have been destroyed by every male in the UFC Flyweight division.

 

[Connoisseur]

But Rousey wasn't even a threat to women of her own size that have striking ability when she was at her peak, let alone men. She was pummeled by both Holm & Nunez via their superior striking ability. Her idiot coach and shills like Rogan sprouting rubbish that she could pound for pound beat half the men on the roster and outbox Floyd Maywether was beyond stupid. Rousey had a dream run when there wasn't a lot of quality female opposition. She had elite judo, grappling & submission skills and was super aggressive, but I wouldn't say she was physically superior to the other females. She would have been destroyed by every male in the UFC Flyweight division.

Yeah I was using Rousey as a rare example of a female that could possibly successfully impose herself physically on average male (5'9 or under who more or less lacks the fitness of a finely tuned trained athlete), not a fellow male professional fighter like herself.

Agree in general, and that was my whole point, females (one on one, not in a group) seldom pose any real physical danger to another man picked at random from a crowd, whether the far/hard/radical left like it or not that's the cold hard truth of the physiological differences between men and women. Got a problem with that take it up with mother nature and how animals, humans, etc.. have evolved over time.

And it's why I shake my head at the sheer stupidity of allowing individuals, who have been born into this world as males but then somewhere along the line have a change of heart perceiving themselves as females, to 'compete' against athletes who are unquestionably physiologically female (therefore not as strong as they lack the testosterone that charges much of male strength, muscle mass and the bone structure and density that comes with it) and therefore vulnerable to serious injury (possibly even death) from these 'former' males.

 

[Taylor]

Athletes are a minority too. Bigger, stronger, faster than the rest of us.

There are more average men who are bigger and better athletes than their are women of the same size. Then there are the male athletes