Travis Varcoe

[winty]

can anyone who was at the game comment where varcoe played in the second half. I thought he was off the back flank and made some piercing runs through the middle aka Monica.
May well be a spot for him running out as i thought he foot skills were awesome with some stunning delivery lace out

He was playing on the half back flank in the second half, and looked comfortable doing it. Will be interesting to see if he can perform to a similar standard in that role against a team having a dip though.

This is reaching from the memory a bit - but Trav played some pretty good footy last year against the Pie? Think that Rnd 19 game was a big one and i think he was also one of our better in the preliminary final loss? Don't quote me on it though.

I remember that game too. I think Varcoe had a hand in about 5 of our first 6 goals that night, several of which were 50m passes through the midfield to players streaming towards goal.

Hopefully the Demons, and to a lesser extent the Tigers, have played Trav back into form. I guess we'll find out in the next month.

 

[Vdubs]

So we have this Varcoe thread, why not something fair and novel like a thread for all 30 odd senior players and we can do a weekly assessment of their pros and cons, bowel actions, whatever. Has one single player ever had so much BF scrutiny? All in all, it's a compliment of sorts.

Anyway, I for one am enjoying the fact that he appears to be hitting true form and remaining a lock-in. He is the sort of player that does not need to go the 2's to enhance form and confidence, EVIDENTLY

 

[PatrickBateman]

So we have this Varcoe thread, why not something fair and novel like a thread for all 30 odd senior players and we can do a weekly assessment of their pros and cons, bowel actions, whatever. Has one single player ever had so much BF scrutiny? All in all, it's a compliment of sorts.

I think the answer here is pretty simple, of all the senior players he's been the least convincing from an improvement/expectation perspective in 2011. Whether this is fair or not is up for discussion, I for one think he's been very inconsistent. He has shown glimpses of a high quality midfielder, but perhaps he's only ever going to be a small forward who comes in and out of games?? He's certainly shown he doesn't have what it takes to play midfield with great success, just isn't prepared to play hard enough.

Anyway, I for one am enjoying the fact that he appears to be hitting true form and remaining a lock-in. He is the sort of player that does not need to go the 2's to enhance form and confidence, EVIDENTLY

Why is it not sinking in? You just don't get it do you?

Explain to me how his performances against Adelaide, Richmond and Melbourne(all terrible opposition) compute into him turning around his deplorable efforts in hard, intense, contested games? I'd like to see him turn it around but am not prepared to make assumptions after his efforts against our better opponents in 2011.
Good teams simply give you NO SPACE. The defensive press unfortunately ******s Varcoe's ability to be ultimately effective for the team. A good defensive press(Collingwood/West Coast especially) creates contests up and down the entire ground, Varcoe struggles with this and laps up open space, clear running, handball recieves etc... all difficult to come by.

Like I said, he'll EVIDENTLY have the finals to prove me wrong and I hope for the sake of our success that he does. Till then, he's a downhill skier. Nothing he's done in 2011 proves otherwise in my book.

 

[meto]

I think the answer here is pretty simple, of all the senior players he's been the least convincing from an improvement/expectation perspective in 2011. Whether this is fair or not is up for discussion, I for one think he's been very inconsistent. He has shown glimpses of a high quality midfielder, but perhaps he's only ever going to be a small forward who comes in and out of games?? He's certainly shown he doesn't have what it takes to play midfield with great success, just isn't prepared to play hard enough.



Why is it not sinking in? You just don't get it do you?

Explain to me how his performances against Adelaide, Richmond and Melbourne(all terrible opposition) compute into him turning around his deplorable efforts in hard, intense, contested games? I'd like to see him turn it around but am not prepared to make assumptions after his efforts against our better opponents in 2011.
Good teams simply give you NO SPACE. The defensive press unfortunately ******s Varcoe's ability to be ultimately effective for the team. A good defensive press(Collingwood/West Coast especially) creates contests up and down the entire ground, Varcoe struggles with this and laps up open space, clear running, handball recieves etc... all difficult to come by.

Like I said, he'll EVIDENTLY have the finals to prove me wrong and I hope for the sake of our success that he does. Till then, he's a downhill skier. Nothing he's done in 2011 proves otherwise in my book.

He is the consumate outside small fwd, will always rely on others for handball recieves to be effective.
Personally I don't mind having one in the forwardline, providing he takes his chances and converts opportunties afforded to him.
2 goals is just a passmark, 3 is what you want, of late he's been able to produce but the standard of opposition is questionable allowing him the freedom he needs to be a factor.
I'll reserve my judgement till finals time, we have a soft run home.

 

[Vdubs]

I think the answer here is pretty simple, of all the senior players he's been the least convincing from an improvement/expectation perspective in 2011. Whether this is fair or not is up for discussion, I for one think he's been very inconsistent. He has shown glimpses of a high quality midfielder, but perhaps he's only ever going to be a small forward who comes in and out of games?? He's certainly shown he doesn't have what it takes to play midfield with great success, just isn't prepared to play hard enough.



Why is it not sinking in? You just don't get it do you?

Explain to me how his performances against Adelaide, Richmond and Melbourne(all terrible opposition) compute into him turning around his deplorable efforts in hard, intense, contested games? I'd like to see him turn it around but am not prepared to make assumptions after his efforts against our better opponents in 2011.
Good teams simply give you NO SPACE. The defensive press unfortunately ******s Varcoe's ability to be ultimately effective for the team. A good defensive press(Collingwood/West Coast especially) creates contests up and down the entire ground, Varcoe struggles with this and laps up open space, clear running, handball recieves etc... all difficult to come by.

Like I said, he'll EVIDENTLY have the finals to prove me wrong and I hope for the sake of our success that he does. Till then, he's a downhill skier. Nothing he's done in 2011 proves otherwise in my book.

Settle down, time for meds? TV's shown glimpses of his best this year against Hawks and Blues, don't you remember. His form this year is not related to the opposition directly. He was able to perform under pressure in finals last year. His role as a small forward is always more likely to be an inconsistent one. Look around. Betts, Milne, 2 of the better ones this year, they also go missing. Stop comparing him to Selwood, Corey, Bundy etc. They are there for different reasons., Seems like YOU JUST DON'T GET IT.

The coach and MC have EVIDENTLY declared their thoughts on TV this year.

Let's just enjoy what he brings and hope he is on the improve. From what I've observed, he doesn't mind the big stage or a pressure game. There are a combination of reasons for his average start to the year, but he has proven now that he seems to have caught up with his teammates in fitness and now some form. We will be the benefactors of his hard work, just try and enjoy it. This team is complex and not all players are expected to be clones of each other. Imagine if Joel Selwood could have the finishing skills and touch and speed of a Varcoe. We'd have...a Gary Ablett!!

 

[Vdubs]

Dear Patrick, Seeing you keep bringing this up,

At the Winter Olympics, they have events for both downhill skiing, and XC skiing, both requiring skill and fitness, and not the same athletes. In footy, we have roles for both types in a team event.

 

[DanA]

Still not convinced with Trav. Even when in a slump it was never about his skill level, it's always been his work rate and willingness to put his body on the line.

He seems to have picked up his work rate, that's evident in the run downs and end to end play he's been involved in the last month.

What I'm not sold on is that he has 100% confidence in hi shoulder.
Has he been able to hide that a little bit against Melbourne and Richmond? Will he be able to hide it against Collingwood?

 

[Vdubs]

Still not convinced with Trav. Even when in a slump it was never about his skill level, it's always been his work rate and willingness to put his body on the line.

He seems to have picked up his work rate, that's evident in the run downs and end to end play he's been involved in the last month.

What I'm not sold on is that he has 100% confidence in hi shoulder.
Has he been able to hide that a little bit against Melbourne and Richmond? Will he be able to hide it against Collingwood?

There are MANY things we need to worry about against Pies. TV's shoulder would be way down the list

 

[topic97]

He is the consumate outside small fwd, will always rely on others for handball recieves to be effective.
Personally I don't mind having one in the forwardline, providing he takes his chances and converts opportunties afforded to him.
2 goals is just a passmark, 3 is what you want, of late he's been able to produce but the standard of opposition is questionable allowing him the freedom he needs to be a factor.
I'll reserve my judgement till finals time, we have a soft run home.

True about the standard of opposition, however Selwood has been playing the same opposition and until saturday hasnt found much touch whereas TV has - I am going to stay on the hopeful side and say he is coming in to form.
Sydney will be a great test for him in a few weeks, whilst I think we will still win, they can play defensive football as well as the best so it should still be a good indicator.

But, opposition aside, I thought he played well saturday.
I dont care if Melbourne were about as inspiring as a speech from Julia Gillard, but it was fantastic to see him chase down players again, and his 2nd efforts and tackles were back to what we expect them to be.

I seriously think with Trav its a whole confidence thing that holds him back, not a fitness or form or whatever, and I have rarely seen him play with confidence this season like he did last - it seems when he backs himself and doesnt second guess is when he plays his best footy.

Lets hope the next few weeks will have him keep up the confidence to back himself and carry it into the finals.

 

[PatrickBateman]

Selwood has been playing the same opposition and until saturday hasnt found much touch whereas TV has - I am going to stay on the hopeful side and say he is coming in to form.

A Selwood v Varcoe comparison... hmm.

Selwood struggled first game back from a 4 week break(still better than Varcoe's useless effort against West Coast), played well against the Tigers, arguably BOG against Melbourne(better than Varcoe in both). Shall we start on the rest of the 2011 season?? No, you wouldn't want to go there would you?

So yeah, what the hell are you talking about? Are we insulting our best players now to try and make the under performers look better? If Varcoe showed half as much heart as Selwood he'd be a top liner.... he doesn't.

 

[jimmy.h]

When the team performs strongly he does his bit, 2-3 goals is the expectation for a quality forward, this week he did the job effectively.

The Pies have just one player who is averaging 2-3 goals a game and I'd say they are doing OK.

Dawes averages 1.6, Krakouer 1.4, Beames 1.3, Swan 1.3, Sidebottom 1.2 and Blair 1.2. I would say most, if not all, of these players have been quality forwards for the Pies and are part of why they are such a dominant side.

Having Varcoe, Stokes, Menzel, Duncan and Hawkins kicking only 1.3-1.4 goals a game doesn't strike me as a particularly bug problem.

 

[TheTimeCometh]

For those proposing so, I wouldn't wanna see mackie & varcoe in the same HB line. Bad enough seein ol Crabby tryin to get his pincers around the pill on the last line!

varcoe has real trouble spoilin when its in the air and makin tackles stick when it's against the flow.


Just like Mooney's game, i certainly aint gettin carried away w/ performances against the likes of crows/tiges/dees.

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

Still not convinced with Trav. Even when in a slump it was never about his skill level, it's always been his work rate and willingness to put his body on the line.

He seems to have picked up his work rate, that's evident in the run downs and end to end play he's been involved in the last month.

What I'm not sold on is that he has 100% confidence in hi shoulder.
Has he been able to hide that a little bit against Melbourne and Richmond? Will he be able to hide it against Collingwood?

won't need to because he'll be playing on a softy called Neon Leon who waits for the hard nuts to get it out and Trav will be peaking form by then anyways

Travs form in recent weeks is pretty impressive, even those that want him out won't ever admit it but his rise in form in only a month has been better than what I expected and by September will be worrying defenders. He's got the Wojak factor but is incredible around the goals and very unselfish as they are all are in the team. Great stuff Trav!

 

[Mooney_d'King]

I believe I've refrained from making any comment during this thread, but my simple observation is this:

Travis Varcoe is suited to a certain style of play. He's a running player, generally an outside player and that's the role in which he excels. He's not a contested ball player, so when we get stuck in stodgy contest fests, like games with St Kilda can be, Collingwood often are, etc, he doesn't look anywhere near as good - in fact he can arguably be a liability.

Yesterday's game against Melbourne also showed us that whenever possible, that's the game style that still suits the whole team, the 2007 style. Players like Mackie look a lot better too. Naturally though, the current opposition tactics don't normally allow it and players like Varcoe, Wojo, Mackie and others get shown up.

 

[topic97]

A Selwood v Varcoe comparison... hmm.

Selwood struggled first game back from a 4 week break(still better than Varcoe's useless effort against West Coast), played well against the Tigers, arguably BOG against Melbourne(better than Varcoe in both). Shall we start on the rest of the 2011 season?? No, you wouldn't want to go there would you?

So yeah, what the hell are you talking about? Are we insulting our best players now to try and make the under performers look better? If Varcoe showed half as much heart as Selwood he'd be a top liner.... he doesn't.

No no no, you missed my point completely.
Selwood is 100 times the player TV is and always will be, dont get me wrong on that one!!

What I mean is, sure Selwood had a few weeks off and may have carried some bad form in to the games because of it, but Varcoe hasnt been in the best form either and they were both playing the same oppositon.
And both have seemed to start running into form at around the same time, sure Selwoods form is better than Varcoe's, but it always will be because he is a far better player.

I am not questioning Selwoods skill at all - what I am getting at is they are both getting better as the weeks go by so saying that Varcoes game on saturday is any less impressive by his standards than Selwoods was by his is a bit silly.

It would be like saying that Selwoods 43 possessions arent that good because the Demons were crap opposition.

Fact of the matter is, you play who you run out against on the day, and as long as Varcoe keeps chasing, tackling and running the way he did on the weekend what more can he do to please anyone?
Thats what he is there for.

Selwood = Midfield General, playmaker & posession getter - champion.

Varcoe = Half Forward Goal Kicker, tackler, speed, run & carry - backup to our midfield.

Both fulfilled those roles on the weekend.

 

[PatrickBateman]

No no no, you missed my point completely.
Selwood is 100 times the player TV is and always will be, dont get me wrong on that one!!

What I mean is, sure Selwood had a few weeks off and may have carried some bad form in to the games because of it, but Varcoe hasnt been in the best form either and they were both playing the same oppositon.
And both have seemed to start running into form at around the same time, sure Selwoods form is better than Varcoe's, but it always will be because he is a far better player.

I am not questioning Selwoods skill at all - what I am getting at is they are both getting better as the weeks go by so saying that Varcoes game on saturday is any less impressive by his standards than Selwoods was by his is a bit silly.

It would be like saying that Selwoods 43 possessions arent that good because the Demons were crap opposition.

Fact of the matter is, you play who you run out against on the day, and as long as Varcoe keeps chasing, tackling and running the way he did on the weekend what more can he do to please anyone?
Thats what he is there for.

Selwood = Midfield General, playmaker & posession getter - champion.

Varcoe = Half Forward Goal Kicker, tackler, speed, run & carry - backup to our midfield.

Both fulfilled those roles on the weekend.

That's fair enough, although I don't believe Selwood was really ever out of form. He played the one average game against West Coast after his 'holiday', apart from that you'd be pressed to find him playing anything but a good quality game at worst. Has been fantastic all year for mine.

I see your point regarding Selwood and his 43 touches, although it's how he gets them and influences the contest that is important. Varcoe's game doesn't hold up against all opposition, Selwood's does... that's it in a nutshell.

 

[PatrickBateman]

I believe I've refrained from making any comment during this thread, but my simple observation is this:

Travis Varcoe is suited to a certain style of play. He's a running player, generally an outside player and that's the role in which he excels. He's not a contested ball player, so when we get stuck in stodgy contest fests, like games with St Kilda can be, Collingwood often are, etc, he doesn't look anywhere near as good - in fact he can arguably be a liability.

Yesterday's game against Melbourne also showed us that whenever possible, that's the game style that still suits the whole team, the 2007 style. Players like Mackie look a lot better too. Naturally though, the current opposition tactics don't normally allow it and players like Varcoe, Wojo, Mackie and others get shown up.

Unfortunately, many on here do not see this situation with similar rationality / logic. Emotion and faith cloud their minds.

 

[The Rusty Clam]

I believe I've refrained from making any comment during this thread, but my simple observation is this:

Travis Varcoe is suited to a certain style of play. He's a running player, generally an outside player and that's the role in which he excels. He's not a contested ball player, so when we get stuck in stodgy contest fests, like games with St Kilda can be, Collingwood often are, etc, he doesn't look anywhere near as good - in fact he can arguably be a liability.

Yesterday's game against Melbourne also showed us that whenever possible, that's the game style that still suits the whole team, the 2007 style. Players like Mackie look a lot better too. Naturally though, the current opposition tactics don't normally allow it and players like Varcoe, Wojo, Mackie and others get shown up.

Great post, couldn't agree more.

 

[topic97]

That's fair enough, although I don't believe Selwood was really ever out of form. He played the one average game against West Coast after his 'holiday', apart from that you'd be pressed to find him playing anything but a good quality game at worst. Has been fantastic all year for mine.

I see your point regarding Selwood and his 43 touches, although it's how he gets them and influences the contest that is important. Varcoe's game doesn't hold up against all opposition, Selwood's does... that's it in a nutshell.

You mean Brissy, he didnt play westcost. We probably would have won if he had....

Yeah thats exactly right, Varcoe isnt going to hold up against all oppositon like Selwood will, but as long as he actually runs and chases like he did last weekend and the week before - poor opposition or not - then he is certainly a worthwhile addition to our team.

Thats sorta what I was initially trying to get with my first analogy, but not in as many words.
I am hoping that his last few weeks is him finding form and not just because we are playing average teams.

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

I believe I've refrained from making any comment during this thread, but my simple observation is this:

Travis Varcoe is suited to a certain style of play. He's a running player, generally an outside player and that's the role in which he excels. He's not a contested ball player, so when we get stuck in stodgy contest fests, like games with St Kilda can be, Collingwood often are, etc, he doesn't look anywhere near as good - in fact he can arguably be a liability.

Yesterday's game against Melbourne also showed us that whenever possible, that's the game style that still suits Varcoe, the 2007 style. Players like Mackie look a lot better too. Naturally though, the current opposition tactics don't normally allow it and players like Varcoe, Wojo, Mackie and others get shown up.

edited for correction
If you are suggesting blokes like Selwood, Scarlett, Chapman, Mooney, Ling, Corey, Kelly, Stokes, Bartel, Johnson, Enright, Taylor, Lonergan etc enjoy playing with minimal contact as eluded to for Varcoe, Mackie & Wojak (which I disagree) then you must have the dvd player automatically set to play the 2007 season highlights every time you turn on the tv.

 

[PatrickBateman]

You mean Brissy, he didnt play westcost. We probably would have won if he had....

Yeah thats exactly right, Varcoe isnt going to hold up against all oppositon like Selwood will, but as long as he actually runs and chases like he did last weekend and the week before - poor opposition or not - then he is certainly a worthwhile addition to our team.

Thats sorta what I was initially trying to get with my first analogy, but not in as many words.
I am hoping that his last few weeks is him finding form and not just because we are playing average teams.

Yeah, couldn't agree more. Varcoe's tackling has been well down in 2011, which is a shame... he's a great defensive player when he puts the work in. We'll need him up and about in finals... fingers crossed.

 

[meto]

The Pies have just one player who is averaging 2-3 goals a game and I'd say they are doing OK.

Dawes averages 1.6, Krakouer 1.4, Beames 1.3, Swan 1.3, Sidebottom 1.2 and Blair 1.2. I would say most, if not all, of these players have been quality forwards for the Pies and are part of why they are such a dominant side.

Having Varcoe, Stokes, Menzel, Duncan and Hawkins kicking only 1.3-1.4 goals a game doesn't strike me as a particularly bug problem.

Your just backing up what I first wrote, 2 goals is what we want, 3 goals is terrific!
He does better with big forward protection, no doubt.

 

[Vdubs]

Unfortunately, many on here do not see this situation with similar rationality / logic. Emotion and faith cloud their minds.

No, you are the only one who has it worked out. I think you'll find all the TV supporters acknowledge the way he plays , but we can accept his limitations without resorting to terms such as gutless, soft, downhill skier, etc. Not accusing you personally of this either btw. And I agree that the description you refer to is a great synopsis.


Having followed footy since 1964, I have seen many players, and TV is an exceptional talent who fits in our team beautifully, and we have an excellent blend of mids and small forwards. Nothing to do with blind faith/emotion, not that I take your comment personally, but the MC has made the appropriate statements with Varcoe's selections, and he doesn't need us for support.

I still maintain that TV is not perturbed by high pressure games, and in fact thrives on them. His below average games this year do not seem to relate to fear of a contest.

 

[PatrickBateman]

I still maintain that TV is not perturbed by high pressure games, and in fact thrives on them. His below average games this year do not seem to relate to fear of a contest.

Fact? No. I've watched him closely this year(at games) and I can assure you that fear of the contest sums his midfield efforts up pretty well, especially against better opposition around stoppages. He's looked completely lost and out of place.

I really don't like to be seen to be putting the guy down, but people like yourself continue to just fail to see the obvious, which is why this thread keeps going and going. If you're involved in some sought of sponsorship program or similar involving him, I can understand why you're continually going into bat for the guy. To say he's thrived in high pressure games this year is just a joke, completely wrong.

 

[Vdubs]

Fact? No. I've watched him closely this year(at games) and I can assure you that fear of the contest sums his midfield efforts up pretty well, especially against better opposition around stoppages. He's looked completely lost and out of place.

I really don't like to be seen to be putting the guy down, but people like yourself continue to just fail to see the obvious, which is why this thread keeps going and going. If you're involved in some sought of sponsorship program or similar involving him, I can understand why you're continually going into bat for the guy. To say he's thrived in high pressure games this year is just a joke, completely wrong.

Correct about this year, he hasn't looked at his best, but it doesn't seem to be the pressure that has stopped him. How do you explain a burst of 3 goals against Blues that threw the game open into our advantage, and his efforts against Hawks. The sponsorship is irrelevant. Guys like PO and CF have been critical of TV's performances, openly, but NOT in an offensive manner, and CF is the instigator of the sponsorship, IIRC.

The tone has changed anyway, now that his form approaches what we hoped for. All I'm saying is, he appears to enjoy big stage games historically, that's why I'm not worried about him in finals.

Just let me ask one question, is he in your best 22? And yes, of course we all see what you and others describe as the obvious, but it's been so obvious that he has yet to be dropped from our team,and hopefully these lesser teams have played him back into form.

Offensive, btw, is suggesting that he is soft, gutless, fears contests