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Eons said:
As in his acting or the show?

Wire is one of my favorite shows of all time.
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Luther is a fine show, but it's not very much like the Wire. Luther is a bit more dramatic and over the top.

Idris Elba is very good in it.
 
Lots of controversy surrounding 13 reasons on Netflix and its easy to see why.

A few groups have suggested that it will spark copycats or similar but I'm not sure... although I have no basis to say that so perhaps I should say nothing. It's very in your face, and it hits home - hard. But to me it does it in a way that not only shows how easy it is for people to add to a catastrophic situation, sometimes by accident even, but it also highlights the pointless loss suicide is.

The escalation of hopelessness is really well depicted... any one thing alone isn't too big a deal. But pile on and the result is a burden some find too hard to bear. That silly comment. That throw away insult. The invasion of privacy. Social media just adds a level of irresponsibility and bravado that we have to learn to live with somehow because we will never control it.

My first boss said to me "you can't put an old head on young shoulders". As an arrogant youngster I thought he didn't know what he was talking about.

But it's a lesson we have to teach. Schools unfortunately need to take the reigns as parents seemingly are unaware, unwilling or sadly unable. Personal responsibility, societal responsibilities, life skills. The world we live in gets smaller and smaller everyday on a personal level, and we've forgotten how to care for each other and interact with each other.

If this show shocks people it's done it's job.

Take the time to watch the extra "episode" on the making of the series after... it shows the level of care and debate in putting the series together.
 

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notliondown said:
Lots of controversy surrounding 13 reasons on Netflix and its easy to see why.

A few groups have suggested that it will spark copycats or similar but I'm not sure... although I have no basis to say that so perhaps I should say nothing. It's very in your face, and it hits home - hard. But to me it does it in a way that not only shows how easy it is for people to add to a catastrophic situation, sometimes by accident even, but it also highlights the pointless loss suicide is.

The escalation of hopelessness is really well depicted... any one thing alone isn't too big a deal. But pile on and the result is a burden some find too hard to bear. That silly comment. That throw away insult. The invasion of privacy. Social media just adds a level of irresponsibility and bravado that we have to learn to live with somehow because we will never control it.

My first boss said to me "you can't put an old head on young shoulders". As an arrogant youngster I thought he didn't know what he was talking about.

But it's a lesson we have to teach. Schools unfortunately need to take the reigns as parents seemingly are unaware, unwilling or sadly unable. Personal responsibility, societal responsibilities, life skills. The world we live in gets smaller and smaller everyday on a personal level, and we've forgotten how to care for each other and interact with each other.

If this show shocks people it's done it's job.

Take the time to watch the extra "episode" on the making of the series after... it shows the level of care and debate in putting the series together.
Click to expand...

I haven't watched it yet but we are trained in journalism to be super responsible in the way suicide is reported on because rates surge immediately following a high profile one. I don't know whether fictional suicide carries the same risks but it is incredibly dangerous to glamorise it any way and from what I've heard that is one way the series could be interpreted.
 
Caiphus said:
I haven't watched it yet but we are trained in journalism to be super responsible in the way suicide is reported on because rates surge immediately following a high profile one. I don't know whether fictional suicide carries the same risks but it is incredibly dangerous to glamorise it any way and from what I've heard that is one way the series could be interpreted.
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Yeah for sure I can see how that might be the case, and it's certainly what's been argued in the media.

The difference I think is that this is speaking at the level of the target audience... and I'm not sure it glamourises it in anyway. The pain depicted by those left behind is very real too.

It's the same old debate I guess. Like mental health, like depression, like gay rights, like black rights, like rape, like domestic violence, like child abuse... There's a plethora of topics we've shied away from over the years, and to our detriment as a society it would seem. It's not until these things are brought out into the open and made mainstream that progress starts being made.

I get that those already inclined may feel emboldened by the show in some way and that makes me incredibly sad. But if on the other hand this gets parents talking to their kids, classmates thinking about classmates or encourages those feeling lost to ask for help then it's worth the risk I think.

Some would say it's foolish, others brave. Hopefully it's the later.
 
Eons said:
As in his acting or the show?

Wire is one of my favorite shows of all time.
Click to expand...
Ironmonger said:
Luther is a fine show, but it's not very much like the Wire. Luther is a bit more dramatic and over the top.

Idris Elba is very good in it.
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I never really got into the Wire, so I suppose that makes me biased. Loved Luther. Genuinely dark police drama. And British, which improves everything.
 
Caiphus said:
I haven't watched it yet but we are trained in journalism to be super responsible in the way suicide is reported on because rates surge immediately following a high profile one. I don't know whether fictional suicide carries the same risks but it is incredibly dangerous to glamorise it any way and from what I've heard that is one way the series could be interpreted.
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notliondown said:
Yeah for sure I can see how that might be the case, and it's certainly what's been argued in the media.

The difference I think is that this is speaking at the level of the target audience... and I'm not sure it glamourises it in anyway. The pain depicted by those left behind is very real too.

It's the same old debate I guess. Like mental health, like depression, like gay rights, like black rights, like rape, like domestic violence, like child abuse... There's a plethora of topics we've shied away from over the years, and to our detriment as a society it would seem. It's not until these things are brought out into the open and made mainstream that progress starts being made.

I get that those already inclined may feel emboldened by the show in some way and that makes me incredibly sad. But if on the other hand this gets parents talking to their kids, classmates thinking about classmates or encourages those feeling lost to ask for help then it's worth the risk I think.

Some would say it's foolish, others brave. Hopefully it's the later.
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I discussed this with a mate of mine who's a psychiatrist, and they said very similar to you Caiphus. Media has a higher duty of care when dealing with this due to the scary influence they can have, and the 'contagiousness' of suicide. NotLionDown - they also stated that fictionality wouldn't impact it at all. In fact a show like that would attract a lot of people considering suicide. Apparently the book produces a lot more thoughts on the negative whereas for people considering suicide, the show supposedly shows it more as "on option".

A lot of suicide watch groups have also raised concerns that the show effectively provides a DIY toolkit for "how to kill yourself" so there's been real concerns over that, as a lot of teenagers particularly don't actually know how to effectively kill themselves, which leads to failed attempts. Far preferable to successful attempts, and can lead to treatment.

I say this without having seen it, and without having mental health training myself, so I could be wrong on things... On advice of people I trust (like my psychiatrist mate, who is boycotting the show), I don't feel morally that I can watch the show, giving Netflix an audience for it. I know - one rating isn't going to cause them any problems, but still, that's what I've chosen.
 
spotthedog1 said:
I never really got into the Wire, so I suppose that makes me biased. Loved Luther. Genuinely dark police drama. And British, which improves everything.
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Dark is the right word. It's a bit like a modern noir thriller.
 
spotthedog1 said:
I discussed this with a mate of mine who's a psychiatrist, and they said very similar to you Caiphus. Media has a higher duty of care when dealing with this due to the scary influence they can have, and the 'contagiousness' of suicide. NotLionDown - they also stated that fictionality wouldn't impact it at all. In fact a show like that would attract a lot of people considering suicide. Apparently the book produces a lot more thoughts on the negative whereas for people considering suicide, the show supposedly shows it more as "on option".

A lot of suicide watch groups have also raised concerns that the show effectively provides a DIY toolkit for "how to kill yourself" so there's been real concerns over that, as a lot of teenagers particularly don't actually know how to effectively kill themselves, which leads to failed attempts. Far preferable to successful attempts, and can lead to treatment.

I say this without having seen it, and without having mental health training myself, so I could be wrong on things... On advice of people I trust (like my psychiatrist mate, who is boycotting the show), I don't feel morally that I can watch the show, giving Netflix an audience for it. I know - one rating isn't going to cause them any problems, but still, that's what I've chosen.
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Oh no I get it... and I very much respect your choice. It's not a show to watch easily or take lightly which I think was the entire point. You wince, you cringe and your emotions are on a roller coaster.

Personally I don't think it does show it as an "option"... it highlights the consequences and results dramatically. It also illustrates how quickly we can contribute to that state of mind of someone feeling low or hurt... which is by far the biggest lesson here.

As for the argument that someone inclined to take their own life doesn't know how, that just doesn't add up to me. Banning the internet would be the only way you could stop young people finding out that information - and even then the result would be limited. I understand the position the professionals have taken, duty of care almost deems it essential. And despite these discussions I'm still torn on it's merits. Which is probably the point as I see it.

Talking about being gay doesn't make you gay. Talking about domestic violence doesn't make people commit it. Talking about being black doesn't make you black.

This thing is out there now, rightly or wrongly. And the few discussions I've had with teen's - mid 20's who've watched it, they've generally been happy it's an issue that was brought out in a way they could relate to. And ironically despite varying levels of "liking" the show, none said it shouldn't have been made. Go figure.
 
notliondown said:
Oh no I get it... and I very much respect your choice. It's not a show to watch easily or take lightly which I think was the entire point. You wince, you cringe and your emotions are on a roller coaster.

Personally I don't think it does show it as an "option"... it highlights the consequences and results dramatically. It also illustrates how quickly we can contribute to that state of mind of someone feeling low or hurt... which is by far the biggest lesson here.

As for the argument that someone inclined to take their own life doesn't know how, that just doesn't add up to me. Banning the internet would be the only way you could stop young people finding out that information - and even then the result would be limited. I understand the position the professionals have taken, duty of care almost deems it essential. And despite these discussions I'm still torn on it's merits. Which is probably the point as I see it.

Talking about being gay doesn't make you gay. Talking about domestic violence doesn't make people commit it. Talking about being black doesn't make you black.

This thing is out there now, rightly or wrongly. And the few discussions I've had with teen's - mid 20's who've watched it, they've generally been happy it's an issue that was brought out in a way they could relate to. And ironically despite varying levels of "liking" the show, none said it shouldn't have been made. Go figure.
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Fair points. I'm very much for having discussions surrounding things like suicide. I don't think that pretending it doesn't exist is a healthy way to deal with it at all. Sweeping it under the rug simply doesn't work, and I'm very much in favour of campaigns like "RUOK". That said, as has been stated, there are very strict training for (serious) journalists and medical professionals and mental health workers on how to address things like suicide. And I think that unless they engaged substantial assistance from professionals in the area (and listened to them), a netflix drama is unlikely to be able to navigate the issue in a way that is approved by mental health professionals (hence why many mental health professionals have denounced the show).

There is substantial proof that suicide has a form of contagion. When a person commits suicide, it has been conclusively proven that suicide rates for people who knew them (in person, as a celebrity, etc), increases. I agree that talking about being gay doesn't make someone gay. And I'm not saying that it'll make someone suicidal. But for people already considering it, and already susceptible to it, it does have an effect.

And I know that a person can find out how to commit suicide online. But there's a difference between a person, of their own volition, investigating this sort of thing, compared to wrapping it up in a nice drama show readily available, and openly promoted towards, people who are drawn to the issue (for various reasons - not suggesting Netflix is targetting people considering suicide... necessarily...). Even then, the stats show that for the number of people who have attempted suicide, and properly tried to, many of them still fail due to poor method. Some of the more popular methods of attempting actually have lower-than-people-realise success rates.

It's worth noting that I'm also against censorship. But just because I believe a person is free to say what they want, doesn't mean they should, and definitely doesn't mean that I have to listen to them...
 
spotthedog1 said:
And I think that unless they engaged substantial assistance from professionals in the area (and listened to them), a netflix drama is unlikely to be able to navigate the issue in a way that is approved by mental health professionals (hence why many mental health professionals have denounced the show).
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There was substantial input... in fact there was a team of professionals involved... hence my comment about watching the "making of" episode in the earlier post. I sure that doesn't make it automatically right, but nor does it make it wrong. And like the debate now they had long discussions about how to depict things. I guess like all things even the professionals will differ :)

Thanks for a great discussion spotthedog1... even here on a footy forum these things make you think and question :thumbsu:
 
Beyond Blue have come out in the last few days and said 13 Reasons Why "glamourises suicide", as killing herself gave Hannah Baker power over her school mates. Hannah used this power in the tapes to get the kids to do things, like throw rocks at Tyler's window ect. Consider also that a number of youths attempt suicide for attention, this show and the consequences of Hannah's actions seemingly reinforce that ability to gain attention from suicide.

I think with social media a prevalent part of growing up these days it's hard for adults and teachers to confidently know how to deal with bullying and teenage issues - it's still a big unknown. I don't think for a second I've got the answers to overcoming teen suicide but it's pretty clear schools need to be investing in more counsellors and support staff, unlike Mr Porter.
 

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Watched the first 5 episodes of Sense8 over the weekend, had a lump in the throat and nearly teared up when this song came on, it was a big year for our family the year this song came out as well which probably contributed to the lump and tear. Love this series so far.

 
jason pm said:
Watched the first 5 episodes of Sense8 over the weekend, had a lump in the throat and nearly teared up when this song came on, it was a big year for our family the year this song came out as well which probably contributed to the lump and tear. Love this series so far.

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Just binge watched the entire second series over the weekend - exactly how we dealt with the first series.

Just love it. It's so different and diverse, the way they intermingle and intertwine the scenes and stories is just so bloody clever.

The story line gets better and better too... keep going, it's a brilliant series!
 
jason pm said:
Watched the first 5 episodes of Sense8 over the weekend, had a lump in the throat and nearly teared up when this song came on, it was a big year for our family the year this song came out as well which probably contributed to the lump and tear. Love this series so far.

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notliondown said:
Just binge watched the entire second series over the weekend - exactly how we dealt with the first series.

Just love it. It's so different and diverse, the way they intermingle and intertwine the scenes and stories is just so bloody clever.

The story line gets better and better too... keep going, it's a brilliant series!
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It definately just keeps getting better.
The way their lives are all integrated together is just amazing. It takes you on an amazing journey and it just keeps upping the anti. Would recommend to anyone. A few of the sex scenes get a little crazy!
It a great series.
 
notliondown said:
Just binge watched the entire second series over the weekend - exactly how we dealt with the first series.

Just love it. It's so different and diverse, the way they intermingle and intertwine the scenes and stories is just so bloody clever.

The story line gets better and better too... keep going, it's a brilliant series!
Click to expand...
Dlions said:
It definately just keeps getting better.
The way their lives are all integrated together is just amazing. It takes you on an amazing journey and it just keeps upping the anti. Would recommend to anyone. A few of the sex scenes get a little crazy!
It a great series.
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Can't wait to watch more of it with those rave reviews. Unfortunately will have to wait till the weekend, my wife likes to watch that endless reality TV garbage during the week. I'll stick to BF while she's watching that tripe.
 
I thought Sense8 was a classic example of style over substance. The ending was so underwhelming for what was an interesting idea.

Haven't seen the second series yet.
 
jason pm said:
Can't wait to watch more of it with those rave reviews. Unfortunately will have to wait till the weekend, my wife likes to watch that endless reality TV garbage during the week. I'll stick to BF while she's watching that tripe.
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Haha! I cant stand that reality shit!
 
jackess said:
I thought Sense8 was a classic example of style over substance. The ending was so underwhelming for what was an interesting idea.

Haven't seen the second series yet.
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I have only watched the first 3 episodes of the 2nd but it is one of those shows where the ending of each episode, ya just want to watch more. For me anyway.
 

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