Two great players near 300 games. Who has been better?

[cfc4life]

Crawf should have two brownlows.

He was robbed by the umpires in the last round of 2003 when the umpires gave him two votes and Coughlan three votes in a game where everybody else acknowledged that Crawf was BOG.

Had he received the three votes, he would have tied with Buckley, Goodes and Riccuito and received another brownlow.

Still can't see how a Norm Smith medal, while a great accolade, is relevant to a comparison between McLeod and Crawford when, notwithstanding being a superb player that he is, Crawford was unluckily born too late to participate in Hawthorn's golden period of playing in grand finals.

Standing up on the AFL's biggest stage is what makes a great player and McLeod did that twice.

 

[sgbn77]

Using Premierships and Norm Smith medals as a reason for putting McLeod first is like saying Crawford is a lesser player because he didn't make the Indigeneous Team Of The Century, but McLeod did.

Getting to a Premiership is due to the acts of a team. Winning a Norm Smith means you played outstandingly when it counted, but we aren't going to put Embley above Crawford as well are we?

Crawford WAS Hawthorn for so long, copping the tags each week, because there simply wasn't anyone else. Winning a Brownlow was outstanding, but McLeod got damn close.

The number of All-Australian's and polling in Brownlow's shows were these two are...personally I'd have McLeod just first, but to rule out Crawf for recent years is like thinking of Kouta for his Gladiators work. He was phenomenal in the latter parts of the 1990's.

 

[sgbn77]

Standing up on the AFL's biggest stage is what makes a great player and McLeod did that twice.

Of course it does. No one disputes that, but to use a stage that only one player has played in, as some form of dominance, shows that you have very average debating skills.

Crawford is better because he has more stuff hanging in the Hawthorn FC Museum, perhaps?

 

[Alan Alda]

Crawf has a brownlow

McLeod doesnt but should have in 2001 so it is too hard to call, probably McLeod just because of the two Norm Smiths and numerous B&F's

Actually Crawf has more b&fs than McLeod. I wonder who has more career brownlow votes?

Both out and out superstars.

If I had to pick one, and I really don't want to, I'd take McLeod by a whisker over the long haul. But Andrew McLeod never put in a season quite as good as Crawf's 1999. He won all the awards that year - MVP, brownlow, b&f, AA, newspapers, tv shows. One of the best individual seasons of the last 30 years.

 

[Dixie Flatline]

Actually Crawf has more b&fs than McLeod. I wonder who has more career brownlow votes?

According to Footywire, Crawf has 159 career Brownlow votes to McLeod's 128.

 

[phreeze77]

Standing up on the AFL's biggest stage is what makes a great player and McLeod did that twice.

Paul Dear is a great then!!!

Crawf has been an outstanding player for a long period. 1999 and 2003 were his best seasons.

To say he couldnt play a multitude of positions like McLeod is being naive. There were times he played on James Hird in the Backline and tore him a new one .. he played on Robert Harvey at his peak and drew level with him if not beat him. He played on Jeff Farmer when he was going through a purple patch and kept him well down and picked up 30 touches rebounding off him.

He used to burn off 2-3 taggers a game. McLeod was a Half Back Flanker who created.

He never played as a Midfielder, to me it is no contest .. Different players , Different sides they played in. One played in 2 Premiership sides and had a side that was a contender for most of his career , while the other was the only shining light in the middle of some mediocre footballers.

It is the same argument you'd use for Tony Lockett ahead of Jason Dunstall for example.

 

[Ron The Bear]

If I had to pick one, and I really don't want to, I'd take McLeod by a whisker over the long haul. But Andrew McLeod never put in a season quite as good as Crawf's 1999. He won all the awards that year - MVP, brownlow, b&f, AA, newspapers, tv shows. One of the best individual seasons of the last 30 years.

Coming to Round 18, he was equal second in the Brownlow count, 3 votes behind Mercuri. Reeled off four consecutive BOG's to put the issue beyond doubt.

Since 3-2-1's were first recorded in 1984, McLeod has polled the third-most BOG's (28) of any non-Brownlow winner (behind West, 30 & Matera, 29).

 

[HeLMie]

No contenst, Mcleod easily by the length of the bass straight ...

Hawthorn fans are overrating Crawford grossly if they think he's career has come close to the brilliance of Mcleod ...
Last time I checked, Crawford single handidly didn't get his team over the line in two GF's ..

We're talking about Mcleod not Jarman.

 

[marvin]

McLeod was a Half Back Flanker who created.

He never played as a Midfielder,

Have you ever seen him play? Of course he played as a midfielder.

 

[NikkiNoo]

One played in 2 Premiership sides and had a side that was a contender for most of his career , while the other was the only shining light in the middle of some mediocre footballers.

Um Shaw years anyone?

 

[Masten2McKinley]

both are great players but i would have mcloed becasue imo he was better in his prime also won 2 norm smith medals

 

[Dixie Flatline]

both are great players but i would have mcloed becasue imo he was better in his prime also won 2 norm smith medals

Crawf has never been in a position, through no fault of his own, to win a Norm Smith medal or a premiership.

By this reasoning, Paul Dear > Crawf because Dear won the 1991 Norm Smith medal.

 

[jonoman89]

I'm obviously biased, but Crawf has set the benchmark for preparation and dedication to the sport that few, if any, at our club have matched since he began playing.

Pretty sure Kouta was the benchmark for the modern AFL player. Much more versatile than Crawf.

 

[Hawkamania!]

Both are champions of the game and deserve the accolades as such. I would have loved to have McLeod at Hawthorn and I doubt any intelligent fan would say otherwise for their club.

Crawford has given his all and put his career on the line to make the coaching change we needed and by the looks of things, is going well. He is one of the best when it comes to preparing himself for games and other clubs have pursued his services for most of his career.

Anyone who disrespects either player does not understand football at all.

 

[Exhale You]

My only issue with Crawford is that each of his B&F's came in seasons when Hawthorn were poor.

He won the B&F in 1998 and 1999, then missed out in 2000 and 2001 (the years Hawthorn made finals), then when they again struggled he won the B&F in both 2002 and 2003.

Compare that to McLeod who won his first B&F in a premiership year (which is a wonderful feat) and his other two B&F's came in years when his team made the finals.

Both players are champions, but i'd take McLeod because he's proven he can perform in big games and can standout in both good and bad teams.

 

[Exhale You]

Crawf has never been in a position, through no fault of his own, to win a Norm Smith medal or a premiership.

Correct, but you cannot take the achievement away from McLeod, and it's only fair to use it when judging McLeod because it (along with his B&F in a premiership year) proved that he was a big game player.

 

[GoodFootyNorth]

Agree with all who have said that both are great players, and that those bagging Crawford are peanuts - he's a gun.

However, I was at both the 97 and 98 Grand Finals, and McLeod was untouchable in both games; just could not be tackled or stopped. Practically won them both matches (along with some other stuff). Can't recall anything like it in the many Grand Final's I've been to.

You can't do more as a footballer than win your side flags. So if I had to choose one I'd take McLeod. But I reckon we could have fitted both in the North team quite nicely.

 

[medusala]

Pfft, Andrew McLeod will go down as a great player in the AFL. Crawford has been great for Hawthorn but he certainly hasn't been anything special for the game.

you are delusional

did you ever watch football when Judge was coaching Hawthorn? Ever notice the calibre of player Hawthorn had (particularly in the midfield)?

All you had to do was stop one of Crawford, Dunstall and Salmon and they were stuffed. Accordingly all attention was paid to Crawford in the midfield as the rest were very average, unlike McLeod who had some rather decent team mates

The times Crawford played on James Hird and gave him a towelling must have also escaped you

 

[Cassius_Clay]

The brownlow medalist thanks. While McLeod's best is/was better Crawford was as durable as they came. He's a machine. Anyone who saw the Hawks final against the crows knows that Crawf and not Buddy won the game. He was amazing.

 

[Altum Volantes]

I rate McLeod the better player of those 2..

Crawf is just that next tier down I guess, maybe if his best footy had been played on the big stage rather than in mediocre sides I'd rate him higher..

 

[Slamin]

Great thread....

I just cant split them, 2 of the very best.

I remember how in awe of Crawf we all were when he was at his absolute peak...he was the best in the comp IMHO. At times he lifted an ok side into the finals.

As for Andy Mac...a rolls royce and has always been a pleasure to watch him play.

Congrats to both ledgends...sorry I am fence sitting here.

 

[Crow-mo]

Crawf or McLeod.

I think Crawf's best was better than McLeod's, but maybe McLeod has been more consistent.

I'd probably have McLeod just.

I see the other way round, I don't think Crawf's best touches McLeod's. not even nearly; but he's been a touch more consistent.

I'd take McLeod for his brilliance, and for being one of the best big game players of his era. including the tin cup, 3 b.o.g's in his first 3 grand finals.

But Crawford has been a great player, and a great role model. I say that because I remember as a young player interviewed him saying all he wanted was to captain Hawthorn. that man loved his Club.

McLeod served his club better imo, but never loved it like crawf loved his. on at least 3 occassions McLeod has threatened to walk for more cash - which is fair, I don't mind but he didn't love his club.

 

[Crow-mo]

thats a common sign of expected failure. using the premiership stat...

crawford - 1 brownlow
mcleod - 0 brownlow

AFLPA MVP's?

 

[Crow-mo]

If I had to pick one, and I really don't want to, I'd take McLeod by a whisker over the long haul. But Andrew McLeod never put in a season quite as good as Crawf's 1999. He won all the awards that year - MVP, brownlow, b&f, AA, newspapers, tv shows. One of the best individual seasons of the last 30 years.

umm... seriously? mcLeod's 2001 was just as good, as was Kouta's in 2000

consecutive seasons were at that level, and Ben Cousins a couple of years ago as well. lets not get too hyperbolic.

 

[Crow-mo]

McLeod was a Half Back Flanker who created.

He never played as a Midfielder

ummm....