Who will be better in 2025 - Geelong or Hawthorn?

Who will be better in 2025?

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cats- they still got a year or 2 in them.
As long as J. Cameron stays fit, they will be in the mix.
 
Trajectory says the Hawks, but the Cats seem to be our cryptonite of late.

Al least we will (should) have a few good KB's to take on Jez and mates.
 

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Daka said:
Sicily still played 22 games not saying he needed to be top 5, I know missing games can hurt B&F still a surprise missed the top 10 though.
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Most blokes that missed a couple of games completely fell off the pace of the votes and you’ve got to remember Sicily might have only missed a few games but he also played games twice after the dislocation where he wasn’t able to do much until it settled down a week or two later.
 
WalshistheGOAT said:
Hawks depth is lacking and untested, also KPF stocks are sub par until Dear's body matures.

Geelong's midfield without Oliver still weak + an extra year in the legs of Stanley, Danger, Blicavs, Duncan who are pretty close to cooked as is.
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Untested you say? A good portion of our depth have now been exposed to finals football.
 
May I suggest a corresponding question:
Which one of Scott or Mitchell will be recognised as having been the better coach in 15 years from now?

Scott took over a very good group containing a swag of double-premiership winners and won a flag in his first year. He has since kept the Cats constantly in the finals hunt, often over-achieving with the talent at his disposal. It's fair to say he has been the second-best coach of the past decade-and-a-half, next to Clarkson. It's worth noting, though, that Scott has won just 2 flags in almost 15 years.

Mitchell took over an outfit ravaged by list mismanagement in Ckarkson's final years and has overseen an almost complete overhaul of the list as well as the game plan, in just 3 seasons. Without being too biased, I'd be willing to wager that he'll overtake Scott in terms of flags won, if he has as long a tenure.

On the question relating to this thread, it's 50-50 by my reckoning. Geelong were far better in 2024 than I'd expected but so were the Hawks. I'd expect both to feature prominently next September.
 
What's everyone's grand final prediction for next season? (including potential trades/drafts)

CobraKaiLover9's; Catters v Lions
 
jezza1435 said:
Geelong may not get Smith, let alone Oliver
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Agree.
Hawthorn SHOULD have more upside.
We both certainly overachieved this season.
I am not sure if we can hope or expect improvement from Conway, Clark, and Knevitt, to the extent that we did with Dempsey, but without that , we will not progress.
 
WalshistheGOAT said:
Depth includes beyond the best 22. In 2024 the Hawks 2nd stringers weren't really tested as they had a fairly favourable run with injuries.
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Three of our depth players almost helped us across the line in a Semi.

Another was arguably a 4th, but will be first team next year.

You have no clue who our players are, let alone who is depth.

Which is pretty much why the whole BF forum doesn't take you seriously.
 
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Taper said:
Is that why we couldn't match Gold Coast's offer for Ablett Jr in 2010?

Anyway,
Chris Scott's system is why so many of our players look good, just look at the players who have left us during the Scott era and been exposed as plodders at other clubs.

Esava Ratugolea is the most recent example.
He looked decent while playing for us, but since being at Port he's looked all at sea.

Tim Kelly is another recent example.
He looked a genuine A+ grade superstar while playing for us and close to the best player in the game, but he's been a solid reliable B+ grade midfielder at best since being at West Coast.
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first off, I am going to try and avoid a tigers vs cats poo fight on here.

The current cats side in a way reminds me on then Richmond made finals consistently from 2013-22. Damien Hardwick managed to find a game plan that made his rotating players reliable. It's the same with Chris Scott at the cats.

Richmond had 4 or 5 elite players in the 23 but they had some solid back up and rotation players that were reliable.

I look at the cats grand final sides of 2020 and 2022. Elite players and leaders in Selwood and Hawkins.

But the cats had many good experienced and rotation players.

I agree with your view on Tim Kelly. He looked elite at Geelong. But he had good experienced players and that shows. He wasn't overly relied upon at the cats each week. He had guys like Dangerfield and Selwood to work with.

Tim Kelly at west coast is still good. But yeah his experienced teammates at west coast are duds or injured. Elliott Yeo for example has been injured for the last 3 years. Guys like Andrew Gaff are with old, on the decline or retired.

As far as the cats and the salary cap is concerned.... Salary cap this season is 17 million. It grows to 17.7 million in 2025.

Go look at the cats squad. You can see which cats players are on around $500,000 to $600,000 a year.
 
Freomaniac said:
first off, I am going to try and avoid a tigers vs cats poo fight on here.

The current cats side in a way reminds me on then Richmond made finals consistently from 2013-22. Damien Hardwick managed to find a game plan that made his rotating players reliable. It's the same with Chris Scott at the cats.

Richmond had 4 or 5 elite players in the 23 but they had some solid back up and rotation players that were reliable.

I look at the cats grand final sides of 2020 and 2022. Elite players and leaders in Selwood and Hawkins.

But the cats had many good experienced and rotation players.

I agree with your view on Tim Kelly. He looked elite at Geelong. But he had good experienced players and that shows. He wasn't overly relied upon at the cats each week. He had guys like Dangerfield and Selwood to work with.

Tim Kelly at west coast is still good. But yeah his experienced teammates at west coast are duds or injured. Elliott Yeo for example has been injured for the last 3 years. Guys like Andrew Gaff are with old, on the decline or retired.

As far as the cats and the salary cap is concerned.... Salary cap this season is 17 million. It grows to 17.7 million in 2025.

Go look at the cats squad. You can see which cats players are on around $500,000 to $600,000 a year.
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I think Kelly’s performances with the Eagles over the last three years have been criminally underrated.

No he’s not a Dangerfield or Martin or Cripps but he has had so little around him for most of that period not just in the middle of the ground but all over it: when he wins or has the ball he has so little to go to.

He would not even have to be in a top 6 team to look very good again: just a semi competitive team would make him look a really, really strong player IMO
 

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It is a really good question that could go either way.

I think there's a few key position types at the cats who need to stay on the park and there's a couple of mids we can't really do without. The only older players we really rely on are Dangerfield, Cameron, and Stewart. But if Conway and/or SDK go down we are relying on Stanley and/or Blitz to hold the structure up at 34 years old.

Hawks some good kids really coming into their own but opposition analysts will now actually have to spend their limited resources to assess their game style and advise coaches on it. If one coach finds a way to pin their drive off half back down then they have to adjust rather than play on instinct. They're coming along well but that's a big test for a young group.

I genuinely do not know
 
Hawfs have the Adelaide Crows written all over them.

Big tumble down the ladder. Their squad is thinner than Jordan Lewis' hairline.
 
unitedhawk said:
May I suggest a corresponding question:
Which one of Scott or Mitchell will be recognised as having been the better coach in 15 years from now?

Scott took over a very good group containing a swag of double-premiership winners and won a flag in his first year. He has since kept the Cats constantly in the finals hunt, often over-achieving with the talent at his disposal. It's fair to say he has been the second-best coach of the past decade-and-a-half, next to Clarkson. It's worth noting, though, that Scott has won just 2 flags in almost 15 years.

Mitchell took over an outfit ravaged by list mismanagement in Ckarkson's final years and has overseen an almost complete overhaul of the list as well as the game plan, in just 3 seasons. Without being too biased, I'd be willing to wager that he'll overtake Scott in terms of flags won, if he has as long a tenure.

On the question relating to this thread, it's 50-50 by my reckoning. Geelong were far better in 2024 than I'd expected but so were the Hawks. I'd expect both to feature prominently next September.
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Played poker against Sam Mitchell.

Pulled his pants down and left him penniless.

How is this even a question?

He started crying when Kenny took it to Ginny (and rightfully so). "A much older man..."

Give me a break...
 
toomanysquibs said:
Three of our depth players almost helped us across the line in a Semi.

Another was arguably a 4th, but will be first team next year.

You have no clue who our players are, let alone who is depth.

Which is pretty much why the whole BF forum doesn't take you seriously.
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Man he has it in for Hawks too? Thought it was just us
 
Hawthorn.

The actual best side and depth, is going to be one of the best in the competition.

One of the deeper and more talented sides, with more to come through the draft.

BACKLINE
Blake Hardwick - Tom Barrass - Josh Battle
James Sicily - Jack Scrimshaw - Karl Amon

MIDFIELD
Josh Weddle - Will Day - Massimo D’Ambrosio
Lloyd Meek - Jai Newcombe - James Worpel

FORWARDLINE
Dylan Moore - Mitch Lewis - Connor MacDonald
Jack Ginnivan - Calsher Dear - Nick Watson

INTERCHANGE
Mabior Chol - Cam Mackenzie - Josh Ward - Conor Nash - Jarman Impey

5 man bench?

DEPTH
Maginness
Gunston, Breust
Hustwaite, Morrison
Blanck/Frost, Mitchell
Jiath

It’s a 30 man squad or more of quality with other players developing who well and truly would of played had it been the start of a rebuild, or could play for other clubs.

It’s an overall quality side, has all components covered and this is still a pretty young squad.

Geelong are obviously going to be good again, I just don’t think they’ll be as good, and their side is and has been ageing, this may be a negative with how the games going to be played, Bailey Smith is huge for their midfield however.
 
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Footy Smarts said:
The differences between the two teams are overblown. Geelong had 6 players under 23. Hawthorn had 7. Both showed enough form to win a flag but both lost close finals after not their best performances.

Both teams had players they expect to be guns missing (Day and De Koning).

Both teams have early draftees to come in to the side that they rate highly and expect to become good players (McKenzie, Clark and O'Sullivan).

The potential range for both teams is incredibly wide next year. I wouldn't be that surprised if either won the flag. But I also wouldn't be at all surprised if either miss finals.
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De Koning hasn’t really been performing at all in 2024, could be a gun but not sure why he stagnated so hard, atleast with Day he is probably one of hawthorns most important players, Lewis and him are massive inclusions from the finals sides.
 
Kobe Gryant said:
It's a very good question, and both clubs have players at similar levels, across areas of the ground.

Of those in a similar age bracket:

Holmes - Day
Stengle - Moore
Humphries - D'Ambrosio
J Henry - Scrimshaw
Dempsey - Macdonald
Neale - Dear
Stewart - Sicily
Clark - McKenzie
Z Guthrie - Hardwick
SDK - Weddle*

*Stretch I know with Weddle marked for more time up the ground, but just trying to find comparisons.

Both clubs posses imposing small forward ranks, and would arguably be #1 & #2 in those areas across the league. It's pick your poison really.

Wizard, Macdonald, Ginnivan, & Moore - Mannagh, Close, Stengle, Miers.

Where Hawthorn really come out ahead is their prime aged midfielders for mine.

If we're prepared to call Day/Holmes a wash, it still doesn't change that Newcombe, Worpel, & Nash is just simply better than Bruhn & Bowes.

Bailey Smith could potentially make that look a bit more even, but it still needs one more IMO.

Not to mention Meek, who is just miles ahead of the corpse of Stanley and the still-raw Conway.

At this stage I'm inclined to say Hawthorn. Love what Mitchell has done, and the list looks primed for an extended tilt.

Geelong are 1-2 years away from really beginning that IMO. We need a couple more pre-seasons for the u-23s to really take over completely, and a couple more trades/FA's for mine.

All in all though, expect to see these two clubs meet in finals at some point over the next few years.

Just seems like fate yet again.
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Geelongs good areas are obviously forward with Cameron and the smalls, Neale is a good younger option too.

Their midfield is lacking but the defensive line is strong, even without the big names just a super system. Scott helps as a coach.

The midfield is what separates this along with the age. Hawthorn a young side on the up while Geelong holding on, Hawthorn gain more experience through free agents and trades, addressing key areas, not losing anyone important and keeping/building depth, whilst getting natural progression from the youth, with a hunger.

The Hawthorn defensive group was good in 2024 and will only get better in 2025 with two quality key defenders coming in, an ability to defend all types of forwards, be strong aerially and elite by foot with run and dash rebound.

Geelong will still have a top level forward 50 with Cameron and then Stengle, Miers, Close etc who are quality.

Although again, midfield wise. Holmes is very good, Bruhn solid, and a few other solid options. Bailey Smith coming in maybe as a star option if he can explode with extra responsibility, compare this to:

Day and Newcombe who will both be star level midfielders in 2025, Newcombe especially who I think will cement himself as a top 10 midfielder, his backend of 2024 and finals was as good as anyone else and everyone knows how good Day is.

Newcombes last 5 games - PR 20.4 (2nd) - 32 disposals - 83% - 13 cp - 7 cl - 0.6 goals - 1.8 goal assists - 10.6 score involvements - 4 tackles

Worpel a good midfielder, Nash pretty good but has that real defensive side, depth in Maginness.

Then you add Mackenzie & Ward who are both supremely talented hybrid midfielders who will most definitely look to break out in 2025, MacDonald will also look for more midfield time and even Moore pinch hits at a high quality.

Definitely plays a huge part in why I think what I do.
 
Hawksboy72 said:
Feel hawthorn are still 1 mid and a proper KPF short. Lewis is not reliable with both fitness and form in many games he gets pushed out of the contest to easy. Chol is way too inconsistent, and like Lewis is too easily pushed out of a 1 on 1 contest. Sicily can go forward but do we need his elite kicking coming out of defence.

With the midfield, the addition of both B1 & B2 will hopefully release Weddle up the ground to a wing or midfield.

Geelong will always win enough games to make the 8 probably bottom half of the top 8. Hawthorn is most likely in the top half of the bottom 8.

Feel Hawthorn will have a crack at Oscar Allan being an FA or JUH for a 1st round pick.

On SM-S918B using BigFooty.com mobile app
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Lewis’s form? Came back and kicked 2 then did his ACL, playing injured earlier in the year and prior to that in 2023 he was one of the most promising forwards, kicking nearly 40 goals without playing every game, showcasing how good he can be as a genuinely dominant power forward. You don’t find guys like this who are strong 1on1, on the lead, up the ground and in pack situations whilst being a leader, strong on the ground and with great field kicking and finishing skills. He will be a big in after 5-10 rounds.
 
CobraKaiLover9 said:
You've said it.

You've absolutely lost your lamb chops if you think Hawthorn is going to be a stronger team than Geelong next season.
If they land Bailey Smith.
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Jai Newcombe is better, Will Day will probably equal out Holmes and then you’ve still got Worpel, Nash, Mackenzie, Ward and MacDonald. Midfield debate isn’t really a debate at all, forwardlines pretty even and Hawthorns backline with Battle and Barrass may end up better, but were even in 2024
 

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