Toast Van Berlo's Captains Last Quarter

[Southerntakeover]

Only one of us has our head up our ass when it comes to van Berlo, and we all know who that is.

Was this really the best you could muster?

Im rubber and you're glue etc. Oh no, please withhold the mightiness of your wit.

Of the 17 captains, van Berlo is the worst player. It's not the end of the world, but he's starting from a long way back.

So, you've flip flopped back to game performance.

It's not hard to understand, ST. I said he either needs to be an outstanding player, or an outstanding leader. You've challenged me to cite what constitutes the latter, but haven't cited it yourself. Which one of the two of us is more likely to have an objective opinion about VB? Me, being a supporter, or you, being his pseudo boyfriend?

It apparently is hard for you to understand, given you've failed to outline even one measure by which you've supposedly judged him. Or maybe its because you're entirely full of crap right now?

You: Hes not a good enough player, or a good enough leader. They're measured differently.

Me: Really? how are you measuring leadership.

You: How are you measuring it?

Me: Its your ****ing claim, you support it.


etc.

 

[Slippery Pete]

So, you've flip flopped back to game performance..

Weren't you the one who mentioned Chris Judd and his dominating influence on games? I'm happy to help you differentiate between a great player and a great leader, if you are having trouble doing it yourself.

It apparently is hard for you to understand, given you've failed to outline even one measure by which you've supposedly judged him. Or maybe its because you're entirely full of crap right now?

You: Hes not a good enough player, or a good enough leader. They're measured differently.

Me: Really? how are you measuring leadership.

You: How are you measuring it?

Me: Its your ****ing claim, you support it.


etc.

Being a great leader is a lot of things. It's leading by example, it's encouragement, it's direction, it's being the voice of the players, it's being vocal on the field, charismatic off it, inspirational and influential to teammates. It's being able to recognise when team direction is fundamentally flawed, and having the sack to fix it or at least speak about it. It's being able to placate players, supporters, even sponsors.

Some players, like Judd, although not born natural leaders, are able to exhibit these qualities through their play. Some, like Nick Maxwell or Tom Harley, need to take a more active leadership role to exhibit these qualities because they aren't super talented players.

Ian Callinan: "If I was a young player in the team, I'd look at Scott Thompson and say, that's what I want to be like."[/I]

Speaks volumes.

 

[Vader]

Being a great leader is a lot of things. It's leading by example, it's encouragement, it's direction, it's being the voice of the players, it's being vocal on the field, charismatic off it, inspirational and influential to teammates. It's being able to recognise when team direction is fundamentally flawed, and having the sack to fix it or at least speak about it. It's being able to placate players, supporters, even sponsors.

VB gets an A+ in all of the categories I've bolded. The only one he misses out on is "inspirational to teammates", which is more related to his own performance than his leadership qualities.

Thanks for the LOLZ. Another epic fail on your behalf. It took you this long to go beyond the cheap slogans, to actually think what leadership is - only to prove conclusively just how good VB's leadership is in the process. Priceless.

 

[Slippery Pete]

VB gets an A+ in all of the categories I've bolded. The only one he misses out on is "inspirational to teammates", which is more related to his own performance than his leadership qualities.

Thanks for the LOLZ. Another epic fail on your behalf. It took you this long to go beyond the cheap slogans, to actually think what leadership is - only to prove conclusively just how good VB's leadership is in the process. Priceless.

An A+ in all those categories? Really? VB is charismatic is he? I guess if you watch The Big Bang Theory, he is.

And a concession that he is not inspirational to teammates?

I think we should open the polls on this.

 

[Vader]

I'd also argue that being "inspirational to teammates" is a far lower priority than almost all of the other KPIs you listed there.

The following would all be far, far more important:

• Leading by Example
• Encouragement
• Providing Direction
• Vocal on the field
• Influential to his teammates
• Willingness to speak up when things need to change

The following are on par:

• Good public face for the team - for the benefit of players, spectators and sponsors alike.

Note that I've paraphrased a couple of them. I much prefer my definition to the last one, in preference to your comment about being "able to placate..". This KPI incorporates "charisma", which VB has in spades.

Once again, I reiterate that these are all areas where VB excells. That's why he was the universal choice - both players & coaches - as Captain of the team.

For what it's worth, I think you've done a really good job of defining what "leadership" means at an AFL club. I commend you for going past the "influential on the field" KPI, which is about as far as 95% of the BigFooty fans seem to go.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Once again, I reiterate that these are all areas where VB excells. That's why he was the universal choice - both players & coaches - as Captain of the team.

Except Ian Callinan? I think it speaks volumes that a guy who hasnt lived and breathed the AFC bubble, who has a fresh perspective, and who has a very high footy IQ, and has been a key leader in a very successful organisation, came in and said that young players should aspire to be like Scott Thompson.

The jury is still well and truly out on whether VB excels in those areas. You can't say with any assurity that he does. The club is delusional about a lot of things at present - who's to say leadership isn't another one? That's a question I'd actually like to put to SouthernTakeover. His opinion about our leadership is really at odds with everything he stands for on this board.

For what it's worth, I think you've done a really good job of defining what "leadership" means at an AFL club. I commend you for going past the "influential on the field" KPI, which is about as far as 95% of the BigFooty fans seem to go.

It's not actually the first time I've defined it on this board, and I have defined it in greater detail elsewhere, but to stop ST bitching at me all day I thought I'd post a quick rundown again.

He's been much stronger in his rabid support of VB than I have in any criticism. In fact you can hardly call it criticism, I haven't roasted VB at all. Yet he has put the onus on me to define leadership. Fine, there it is. You be the judge.

 

[Vader]

Except Ian Callinan? I think it speaks volumes that a guy who hasnt lived and breathed the AFC bubble, who has a fresh perspective, and who has a very high footy IQ, and has been a key leader in a very successful organisation, came in and said that young players should aspire to be like Scott Thompson.

I don't see any conflict between VB being the club's best leader and Callinan stating that: "If I was a young player in the team, I'd look at Scott Thompson and say, that's what I want to be like."

There is no conflict here. None.

Thompson is our hardest & toughest player. It's no surprise at all that Callinan would nominate him as being a player that our youngsters should seek to emulate. I'd love it if all our players were as hard & tough as Thompson. However, hardness & toughness are not qualities which are particularly important to a leader - you didn't have them on your own list of leadership KPIs and you were right to omit them.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Thompson is our hardest & toughest player. It's no surprise at all that Callinan would nominate him as being a player that our youngsters should seek to emulate. I'd love it if all our players were as hard & tough as Thompson. However, hardness & toughness are not qualities which are particularly important to a leader - you didn't have them on your own list of leadership KPIs and you were right to omit them.

There were two very damning things about Ian Callinan's comments. One, that a first gamer was able to pinpoint, and make public reference to deficiencies that fans in the know have been screaming about for a long time, which the club has long denied existed. And two, when citing what young players should aspire to, that Scott Thompson was the first player named, and not the Skipper. The Skipper should roll off the tongue, FFS. HE should be the player young players want to be like.

And I dont think Ian was referring just to hardness and toughness either........

As Roo said on radio at the weekend, other than being spot on, Callinan's comments unmasked some embarrassing truths about what was a once proud football club.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Except Ian Callinan? I think it speaks volumes that a guy who hasnt lived and breathed the AFC bubble, who has a fresh perspective, and who has a very high footy IQ, and has been a key leader in a very successful organisation, came in and said that young players should aspire to be like Scott Thompson.

Only if you entirely misrepresent what Callinan said to fit your agenda.

Callinan did NOT criticize the captaincy of van Berlo.

The jury is still well and truly out on whether VB excels in those areas. You can't say with any assurity that he does. The club is delusional about a lot of things at present - who's to say leadership isn't another one? That's a question I'd actually like to put to SouthernTakeover. His opinion about our leadership is really at odds with everything he stands for on this board.

Its not at all.

I dont believe in blanket criticism, or approval. Not everything we do is wrong. I believe in assessing on the merits of the situation. In this circumstance, its my belief that van Berlo was the right choice.

It's not actually the first time I've defined it on this board, and I have defined it in greater detail elsewhere, but to stop ST bitching at me all day I thought I'd post a quick rundown again.

He's been much stronger in his rabid support of VB than I have in any criticism. In fact you can hardly call it criticism, I haven't roasted VB at all. Yet he has put the onus on me to define leadership. Fine, there it is. You be the judge.

Actually, im pretty happy with the way this turned out. I gave you enough rope and you hung yourself.

I dont believe any reasonable assessment of van Berlo against the criteria you outlined could suggest that he fails as a leader. Personally I think he stacks up pretty well actually, but at the very least I think youd struggle to argue that he fails on such an assessment. That is entirely in line with my earlier statement that van Berlo doesnt need to be a judd esque performer to be a ood captain.

 

[Wood_Duck]

VB gets an A+ in all of the categories I've bolded. The only one he misses out on is "inspirational to teammates", which is more related to his own performance than his leadership qualities.

Thanks for the LOLZ. Another epic fail on your behalf. It took you this long to go beyond the cheap slogans, to actually think what leadership is - only to prove conclusively just how good VB's leadership is in the process. Priceless.

Whilst I dont have a problem with VB's leadership, this post is utter tripe. A+, WTF?
You clearly have extremely low standards. No wonder you love reading your own posts so much.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Actually, im pretty happy with the way this turned out. I gave you enough rope and you hung yourself..

Keep telling yourself that mate. You weren't adept enough to come up with the criteria that you so adamantly claim VB is excelling at.

dont believe any reasonable assessment of van Berlo against the criteria you outlined could suggest that he fails as a leader. Personally I think he stacks up pretty well actually, but at the very least I think youd struggle to argue that he fails on such an assessment. That is entirely in line with my earlier statement that van Berlo doesnt need to be a judd esque performer to be a ood captain.

Unless you dissect that criteria line by line, this paragraph is utter rubbish. At least Vader highlighted the parts that he subjectively viewed VB as excelling at. Even if he was wrong.

Put up or shut up, mate. Your unwavering defence of VB is categorically blind by most people's standards. It's hard to have a reasonable discussion on those grounds..

And you're far more vocal than you were last week. Coincidence?

 

[Jars458]

Leaders have to lead by example.

So yes leadership is inherently tied up with performance. More so in football where leaders can't delegate, they have to get out there and do it.

IMO, VB's performances on the ground are not good enough to lead by example. This is of course a subjective opinion.

 

[Slippery Pete]

IMO, VB's performances on the ground are not good enough to lead by example. This is of course a subjective opinion.

Which happens to be shared by a large number of supporters.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Keep telling yourself that mate. You weren't adept enough to come up with the criteria that you so adamantly claim VB is excelling at.

I made the claim?

You put forward the argument that he was failing in that respect. I asked you to identify standards to assess on, you did, and your position fell apart.

That you think being able to identify criteria which agree with my position is a win for you is hillarious.

Unless you dissect that criteria line by line, this paragraph is utter rubbish. At least Vader highlighted the parts that he subjectively viewed VB as excelling at. Even if he was wrong.

Put up or shut up, mate. Your unwavering defence of VB is categorically blind by most people's standards. It's hard to have a reasonable discussion on those grounds..

Since you insist.

leading by example: Yes. Puts his body on the line, has an unmatched work ethic.

it's encouragement: Yes. Hes very good at supporting the inexperienced players on our team. If you want an example, watch the after match from this week, particularly the interaction between vB and Petrenko. Good stuff.

it's direction: Yup.

it's being the voice of the players: Yeah. Clearly is. They elected him. BTW, havent you argued that the players shouldnt be allowed to elect their captain?

it's being vocal on the field: Yes. And this is an underrated aspect of his captaincy. Watch him live at a game sometime. Hes frequently directing team mates.

charismatic off it: Not really sure why this is even a criteria.

inspirational and influential to teammates: Seems like this is actually an on field performance criterion. Id argue that he is inspirational however.

Able to recognise when team direction is fundamentally flawed, and having the sack to fix it or at least speak about it: See, this is your agenda shining through. Criticizing the captain for not having tried to get the coach sacked (despite not really knowing what goes on behind closed doors at all) is the weakest possible level of criticism.

Able to placate players, supporters, even sponsors: An ability to placate you is about as unimportant as could possibly be. I couldnt tell you whether the players are placated by him or not. Could you?

And you're far more vocal than you were last week. Coincidence?

Yeah, its not like I stuck around after the game having an all in with half the board over incidents in the game.

Where the **** do you get off trying to imply im a front runner?

 

[Slippery Pete]

I made the claim?

You put forward the argument that he was failing in that respect.

You've claimed he is excelling in almost all the categories that we deem to be important as a leader. I actually put forward the argument that he has very little natural presence as a leader. You have disagreed, that's your perogative. You have gone as far as to say he is inspirational. He may well be, but on evidence to date, that is an absurd claim to make.


Let's concentrate on this part of the criteria, as this is where you believe my agenda is clouding my expectations.

Able to recognise when team direction is fundamentally flawed, and having the sack to fix it or at least speak about it: See, this is your agenda shining through. Criticizing the captain for not having tried to get the coach sacked (despite not really knowing what goes on behind closed doors at all) is the weakest possible level of criticism.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-sport/crows-players-endorse-craig-van-berlo-20110614-1g1fi.html

Van Berlo believes Craig, under scrutiny after notching just three wins so far this year and with his battling outfit in 14th spot, should be reappointed next season.

"Craigy knows he has got the full support of the playing group and the football club itself. And he is more committed than ever to the football club, as are the playing group, so to us it's no issue whatsoever."

And then this.

I dont believe in blanket criticism, or approval. Not everything we do is wrong. I believe in assessing on the merits of the situation. In this circumstance, its my belief that van Berlo was the right choice.

My, my. Reappoint Neil next year, says the Captain. Isn't this an awkward moment for you and VB? Did you want to have a chat with him about this before getting back to me?

You may argue that he's not going to come out and say "sack Craig." But that isn't what we're asking. It took a 28yo first gamer to tell us some home truths, to tell us the things we've been waiting for the leadership to group to say for two freaking years. Callinan summed up in one interview what our current leaders, including VB, haven't been able to say or see, through all the bullshit of the current regime.

Secondly, you've inferred nobody knows what's going on behind closed doors. So, tell us, do you believe honestly that VB's attitude toward this is different to what he's told us? It's not a rhetorical question either - I'm genuinely asking if you believe it. If it turns out that what he believes is exactly as he's said - are you ok with this?

 

[Southerntakeover]

You've claimed he is excelling in almost all the categories that we deem to be important as a leader. I actually put forward the argument that he has very little natural presence as a leader. You have disagreed, that's your perogative. You have gone as far as to say he is inspirational. He may well be, but on evidence to date, that is an absurd claim to make.

Yeah, i challenged your viewpoint. Thats what happens when you make weak claims. And when further challenged, I responded individually to the criteria, and even provided some examples.

Heres the thing though. Even if you dont believe that he excels in those areas, can you genuinely say hes a fail in those regards? I wouldnt have thought so.

Let's concentrate on this part of the criteria, as this is where you believe my agenda is clouding my expectations.

Ahh theres a shock. Youd rather focus on a Neil Craig rant than the substantive content of the argument.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-sport/crows-players-endorse-craig-van-berlo-20110614-1g1fi.html

Van Berlo believes Craig, under scrutiny after notching just three wins so far this year and with his battling outfit in 14th spot, should be reappointed next season.

"Craigy knows he has got the full support of the playing group and the football club itself. And he is more committed than ever to the football club, as are the playing group, so to us it's no issue whatsoever."

And then this.



My, my. Reappoint Neil next year, says the Captain. Isn't this an awkward moment for you and VB? Did you want to have a chat with him about this before getting back to me?

You may argue that he's not going to come out and say "sack Craig." But that isn't what we're asking. It took a 28yo first gamer to tell us some home truths, to tell us the things we've been waiting for the leadership to group to say for two freaking years. Callinan summed up in one interview what our current leaders, including VB, haven't been able to say or see, through all the bullshit of the current regime.

Secondly, you've inferred nobody knows what's going on behind closed doors. So, tell us, do you believe honestly that VB's attitude toward this is different to what he's told us? It's not a rhetorical question either - I'm genuinely asking if you believe it. If it turns out that what he believes is exactly as he's said - are you ok with this?

Im fine with van Berlo having an opinion thats contrary to mine. Im also fine with him publically supporting the coach. For what its worth, I genuinely do believe that he believes in the coach. Hes allowed to. Im sure he'll support the next coach too.

Heres the thing Slippery- you said before that you want the captain to be the representative of the players. 'The voice of the players'. The flaw in your position is- you only want the players to talk when they agree with you. From what ive heard with a few exceptions, the players genuinely do like Craig. The players are not going to push for Craigs removal. Under any captain.

Does that mean van Berlo is a yes man, or wont stand up to Craig when he deems it appropriate? I dont think so. Wasnt the story which we all latched onto earlier in the year that the Leadership Group had confronted Craig over wanting changes to the training program? Did you not rely upon it at the time? You cant simultaneously claim that this happened, and yet claim that the captain wont stand up to the coach.

 

[Slippery Pete]

For what its worth, I genuinely do believe that he believes in the coach. Hes allowed to.

It surely must be a concern to you that he is beating the same old tired "as far as the eye can see" AFC drum that is turning supporters away in their droves. Surely you can take of your VB coloured glasses for one second to see that. Does it make him a bad captain? Not necessarily. Do I think there were better choices than VB? Yes, definitely.

Does that mean van Berlo is a yes man, or wont stand up to Craig when he deems it appropriate? I dont think so. Wasnt the story which we all latched onto earlier in the year that the Leadership Group had confronted Craig over wanting changes to the training program? Did you not rely upon it at the time? You cant simultaneously claim that this happened, and yet claim that the captain wont stand up to the coach.

Here's what I posted in the thread when he was announced as captain.

I dont doubt VB is a great leader on the track, and sets the right example, especially off the field.

However, he does not have a presence, an aura or a charisma. He is not inspiring in any way shape or form. He's clean cut, plain and boring as bat droppings.

Therefore, he's the obvious choice for our club.

Mr Nice Guy leading the Mr Nice Club. It was the obvious choice, really.

There were also several concerned posts in that thread about the makeup of our leadership group, and the fact that the players chose it (RIP Crow-mo). You should clearly remember that latter point, as I recall you debating it vigorously, defending the selection process. The fact is, I wouldnt trust some of the players to put petrol in my car, let alone be capable of choosing a captain. Should we let them choose the CEO too?

The flaw in your position is- you only want the players to talk when they agree with you. From what ive heard with a few exceptions, the players genuinely do like Craig. The players are not going to push for Craigs removal. Under any captain.

You can't say that, champ. Who knows what effect a different leadership group and captain would have. We've already seen a guy play one game and come out with comments totally at odds with the usual bullshit spin we hear out of the playing group.

I'm not interested in whether the players like the coach. Im interested in whether they perform for him. And that latter point should always be on the radar of the skipper.

 

[macca23]

There were also several concerned posts in that thread about the makeup of our leadership group, and the fact that the players chose it (RIP Crow-mo). You should clearly remember that latter point, as I recall you debating it vigorously, defending the selection process. The fact is, I wouldnt trust some of the players to put petrol in my car, let alone be capable of choosing a captain. Should we let them choose the CEO too?

Jee-sus!! You have the hide of a fkg elephant Pete.

You think you have superior judgement and knowledge to that of the 40 odd players who represent our club and know all the individuals and attributes from close up and first hand, while in reality you have no genuine personal knowledge upon which to make your comments.

Fkg unbelievable!!

 

[jenny61_99]

Put up or shut up, mate. Your unwavering defence of VB is categorically blind by most people's standards.

Your unwavering attack of VB is categorically embarrassing.

 

[Southerntakeover]

It surely must be a concern to you that he is beating the same old tired "as far as the eye can see" AFC drum that is turning supporters away in their droves. Surely you can take of your VB coloured glasses for one second to see that. Does it make him a bad captain? Not necessarily. Do I think there were better choices than VB? Yes, definitely.

Why must it be a concern?

Has a captain of a club EVER publically made statements against a coach while they were in office?

Here's what I posted in the thread when he was announced as captain.

Yeah, if this thread needed anything it was more of your ranting. Cheers bro.

There were also several concerned posts in that thread about the makeup of our leadership group, and the fact that the players chose it (RIP Crow-mo). You should clearly remember that latter point, as I recall you debating it vigorously, defending the selection process. The fact is, I wouldnt trust some of the players to put petrol in my car, let alone be capable of choosing a captain. Should we let them choose the CEO too?

1. You argued that "being the voice of the players" is a key criteria of being a captain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can you atleast wait till the thread moves to a different page before blatantly contradicting yourself.

2. The captaincy is a player representative role. It makes sense they would vote. The CEO/President/Coach are NOT player representative roles.

You can't say that, champ. Who knows what effect a different leadership group and captain would have. We've already seen a guy play one game and come out with comments totally at odds with the usual bullshit spin we hear out of the playing group.

I'm not interested in whether the players like the coach. Im interested in whether they perform for him. And that latter point should always be on the radar of the skipper.

God you're making a ridiculous mountain out of a molehill with respect to Callinans statement. Never has one tried to make so little mean so much.

Meanwhile, You argued that the captain should try to instigate 'change' within the football club. Now you want to argue that they shouldnt have a say about who coaches them. Get your own argument straight.

BTW, im happy for van Berlo to be assessed on his performance as captain. That was what we were actually discussing before you ran back and hid in your sack Craig safety blanket. Of course, when you think 'not trying to get Craig sacked' is a key indicator of bad captaincy, theres not much hope you could hold up a good discussion on that front.

 

[Slippery Pete]

You think you have superior judgement and knowledge to that of the 40 odd players who represent our club and know all the individuals and attributes from close up and first hand, while in reality you have no genuine personal knowledge upon which to make your comments.

You agree with the concept of players choosing their own captain, do you?

 

[Slippery Pete]

Your unwavering attack of VB is categorically embarrassing.

Ah, there she is. Agreeing with ST? Are you feeling warm and fuzzy yet?

I haven't gotten close to attacking VB. I've pointed out what I think are deficiencies in his leadership style, and we need him to do as a club to rectify them - ie - perform like he did on Saturday night.

There are thousands of supporters feeling exactly the same way. They're not saying "sack VB," and neither am I.

 

[WALL-e]

Captains lead their troops.....who better to choose the captain than the troops?

They're not selecting the team, the structure, or what's for lunch. They're selecting someone to represent them, both on the field ond off.

You seriously think that the players should be told who their captain is, or are you letting your unwavering hatred for certain individuals sqeuw your opinion?

 

[Slippery Pete]

Why must it be a concern?

Has a captain of a club EVER publically made statements against a coach while they were in office?.

Nice try, champ. What a massive backpeddle. I ASKED you, if you thought van Berlo's comments were what he truly believes, or, in fact, if he is gravely concerned about the direction of the club. You responded that you thought his comments reflected his belief. And that this was ok with you, he was allowed to have a different opinion to you on Neil Craig and all things AFC.

Lucky he isn't a poster on this board then, isn't it? Why does VB get off the hook? Are there any posters left who actually think Craig should be reappointed, and if so, what would you say to them if their name wasn't Nathan?

Do tell.

Meanwhile, You argued that the captain should try to instigate 'change' within the football club. Now you want to argue that they shouldnt have a say about who coaches them. Get your own argument straight.

.

Say what? I didn't say the captain shouldnt have input into the coach, I said players shouldnt be charged with choosing the captain. God, your lack of knowledge of the game is astounding. You actually can't tell the difference between the average joe that is a listed player, and the CAPTAIN, and how they are, or should be, poles apart in their ability to recognise the direction of the team and the club. The captain is not included in such assessments of the playing group. That's why he's the captain. There really is no point going on after this, if you can't comprehend that simple concept.

The captain needs to be the VOICE of the players, because most footballers are as dumb as dosgshit and have very little care factor about anything other than the next contest. That's not an insult - it's the truth. Most footballers are simple individuals who need to be led. Sternly.

 

[Wood_Duck]

Not a masssive fan of 18 year old recruits with zero experience in so many aspects of life not just football voting on what is a pretty important issue for the club.

I am a bit with SP on that point. There are players on every clubs list that would not have a clue what constitutes leadership and would not recognize a good leader if they were being beaten to death by one.

I'm all for a panel selecting a captain. There are people within football clubs that would have a lot more idea than a bunch of teenagers.

N.B troops dont pick their leaders, they get appointed from above.