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AFLW 2024 - Round 7 - Pride Round - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
VFL Premierships......
- Thread starter speedy
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Fair enough.
My counting does not obscure the history of the competition.
Your counting OTOH deliberately omits other parts of the history of the clubs in the competition.
What is your reason for being so dog-in-the-manger and attempting to obscure non-Victorian achievements ?
I'm particularly interested in your answer here considering you are arguing against a proposal that takes nothing from you.
- Banned
- #104
Mark this is a pointless discussion. If you want a history of the game then the AFL/VFL is but a slice of the equation sure, I agree, but I don't particularly care how many flags the Lakes Entrance Chargers have won in their competition. Do you?
I'm not sure what you're argueing obviously, because everyone's flags are acknowledged in some way already aren't they? I mean StMarys have won a million flags in the NT, and I'm sure there's a book around somewhere that states as much. Likewise the SANFL flags have some literature written about them somewhere around the traps.
Its unneccessary, it devalues VFL premierships, it draws an arbitrary line in the sand determined when competition renamed itself, it is cumbersome to explain to the uninitiated, it achieves nothing except alleviate inferiority complexes, it acknowledges premierships that have NOTHING to do with the VFL/AFL, and it would give you a list of 30+ clubs when tabluating a list (can't leave our Norwood or Subiaco), it excludes NSW, Tasmania and Queensland, its MABO, its the vibe.
No they don't at all. They ignore part of the history you would LIKE them to acknowledge but that they were never designed or intended to acknowledge. The AFL flag tallies are testament to AFL history which began in 1897 with a few Melbourne based clubs who left the VFA to form what became the dominant competition in the country after a series of expansions, the last of which has probably not yet occurred.
The tally is not ever held out as representative of the code at all and why should it be? It is a competition tally not a code tally. That in a nutshell is the essence of the debate. You want it to represent something else. In that case I say you would have more chance pushing for an additional measure with different criteria. The fact that IMO it would never catch on is reflective of the relevance, need and importance of the issue.
Whats is so hard to understand about "4 VFA flags, 14 VFL flags and 2 AFL flags".
What is clear and not cumbersome about "16 VFL/AFL flags, not counting the 4 VFA flags of course".
How does the first devalue VFL flags in a way that the second does not even more so devalue other parts of the current AFL clubs history ?
Why should we include Norwood or Subiaco when attempting to accord credit for the history of current AFL clubs ?
Why does it exclude NSW or Queensland as both states have current AFL clubs ?
Be real.
Make up your mind. You either want to record the history of the game or you don't. If you are going to include SANFL flags surely you have to include all SANFL flags not just Port's.
What exactly are you trying to document? All of the VFL, all of teh AFL, and a bit of the SANFL? It makes less sense than ever.
now this I do not understand.
The Essendon FC have won 20 flags...4 in the VFA, probably the best competition in the land at the time and 16 in the V/AFL. But the AFL propoganda machine will only ever tell you that they have won 16. What happened to the other 4 ? Sure they were in a different competition but regardless they were flags won by the EFC.
A couple of years ago I went through th Victorian AFL club websites and it was amazing that most of the time the VFA flags were never even mentioned....on a club board !!!!
WHat is wrong with saying Essendon have won 20 flags ? when indeed that is how many they have won ?
The Old Dark Navy's
Moderator
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- #111
Originally posted by Vindaloo Mat
and I agree with ODN's 100%....I think this is now the 4th year that ODN and I (ptw) have contributed to a thread on this topic....and I win every time !!
Well of course I refute that you have won anything at all. While you rose to the argument on the odd occasion, your SANFL standard of argument was usually inferior to my VFL standard of argument.
Besides even if you did win, you had a name change half way through so your win tally has to be reset!!!
Originally posted by The Old Dark Navy's
Well of course I refute that you have won anything at all. While you rose to the argument on the odd occasion, your SANFL standard of argument was usually inferior to my VFL standard of argument.
Besides even if you did win, you had a name change half way through so your win tally has to be reset!!!
yes, but being a South Australian I have the unfair advantage of being able to read and write of course....more skillful you see. You spent all your primary school days running in the mud.
Now....let me tell you about Barrie Robran......
Correct.
The problem is of course that there actually is no statistical record of the code. And the the predominantly Victorian centric media use the AFL records as a surrogate for that record. Plugger's record is a good exampple....the number of times it is written up as the highest tally EVER. Whereas in fact it is a record which only applies to the AFL. Or that Michael Tuck has played the most number of games OF ALL TIME....whereas of course Mr Craig Bradley rightfully has that honour at the highest level.
You get an irrational response from in particular proud South Australians (Sandgrpers don't give a toss for some reason) as we see, not just a diluting of our history, but simply wiping it away. A 12 year old kid will think that Port has never won a premiership...that the club is 7 years old....which of course is bollocks.
The language used by the media equates AFL history as THE ONLY history....and the AFL itself does very little to set the record straight.
The solution is to have a set of "Pinnacle League" records. This would be SANFL, VFL, WAFL up to say 1987 and AFL recaords above that. Each competition still maintains its own records but we supplement it with a statistical record of the code itself.
who said anything about the competition ??? The EFC have won 20 flags....fullstop.
your comment it fact is a good example of the problem. In your mind the only history that matters is that which occurs in the V/AFL....that this is the only basis for a comparison of clubs...why ?
I have read the thread and I agree with your and Mark's position...including SANFL records in AFL records does not make sense. But you seem hung up on that point. I can still compare Port's history (34 SANFL 0 V/AFL) flags with Essendons (4 VFA, 16 V/AFL)...it is a meaningful statistic. You don't have to change the official records of the AFL to use it....that point is moot IMHO. But generally, Victorians brought up in the VFL see the VFL as the only benchmark for comparison...even to the detriment of the old VFA which was the only show in town for 20 years.
Nonsense....
keep it simple...take longevity....
Do you not agree that Craig Bradley has played the highest number of senior games in the history of the sport at the top level ?
There is a clear difference between Essendon's history and that of the AFL. It is 16 flags in the current competition. Essendon can and should count VFL, VFL Reserves and Under 19's in it's history. That's just a different list for a different purpose.
Nothing.
The Old Dark Navy's
Moderator
- Moderator
- #123
I can understand it but why should the AFL promote it? The VFA flags are counted in the record books of the current VFL. The VFA was the competition that the VFL broke away from and are distinctly different.
We could say 14 VFL flags and 2 AFL flags but because they will always be recorded in the same history, expediency shortens this to 16 VFL/AFL flags.
The only point I can see to this pedantic exercise is that it allays fears that the interstate clubs will compare unfavourably to the more successful VFL clubs when a novice fan takes a quick glimpse at the history books and forms an opinion accordingly.
I prefer to take a leaf out of the Brisbane Broncos League Club's book and be comfortable with being the most successful team in the comp since their inception. They have never tried to disassociate themselves from South Sydney or St George's fabulous histories. Instead they embraced the rich history of the comp they entered and chose to make a statement onfield as to the quality of Queensland rugby league. Perhaps because the Broncos as an entity were much like the Crows in that they were pieced together from various clubs in their state competition, they didn't feel the need to wave their history around?
Here's a thought, if you want to separate the VFL and AFL flags, do we also separately record all aspects of the competition? Do we have a VFL highest score and an AFL highest score? Do we have a VFL leading goalkicker and an AFL leading goalkicker. When comparing club head to head records, do we have to record them pre-1990 and post 1990?
It all seems to come back to a school yard bragging rights mentality and rather than having to explain each time that Essendon and Carlton were no better than the interstate clubs because the interstate clubs were not there to challenge those teams in the VFL, people want the AFL to save them the trouble by spelling it out.
Ah see you've just proved a point I made.
Why the hell did they just slap the name AFL on the VFL, and then call the VFA the VFL?
There is a VFL still, today.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not taking a side on this issue, I'm just showing that they stuffed up royally.
I honestly don't think Victorians think of AFL records as anything more than the records of that competition. Of course they generally regard that competition as superior (rightly or wrongly) but that's another debate, although I feel as though that it is that belief or attitude which drives this type of debate.
