VFL = Reserves

[deliberate!!]

Wednesday, 5th December 2007. (Herald Sun Page 5)
Heading "VFL at the G". (Apologies, currently trying to find a link or the online article)

The opening paragraphs....
"The old fashioned curtain raiser could return to the MCG next season."

"VFL premiers Geelong is scheduled to play the competition's new side Collingwood, in an curtain raiser"

Now, please note this featured FIRST return of curtain raisers to the 'G' is not featuring Coburg V Port Melb or any other non (AFL) genuine-in-name Reserve teams.
It features Geelong & Collingwood.

How long before other clubs want their own Reserves (VFL-AFL) teams under their clubs umbrella and playing close to or on the same grounds as their Seniors, for that ground's (A) Quality and (B) Similarity to playing under Senior standard conditions.

Like I said when I started this thread, welcome back to the future, welcome back to the AFL Reserves.

Shoot me down with all the 'supposed' arguments you have against what I've said. But hard, cold facts just keep cropping up vindicating the direction I see the VFL evolving into.

Today's article just sums up the game's evolution again.

An all-AFL Reserves is coming.
Teams will be again be Collingwood Reserves, Geelong Reserves, Richmond, Carlton etc, etc.
And where possible for a greater footballer experience, Reserve games will be played before the Seniors. It may not be expenditure wise, but it is entertainment and branding smarts.

Cheers

 

[Tigerrific]

Wednesday, 5th December 2007. (Herald Sun Page 5)
Heading "VFL at the G". (Apologies, currently trying to find a link or the online article)

The opening paragraphs....
"The old fashioned curtain raiser could return to the MCG next season."

"VFL premiers Geelong is scheduled to play the competition's new side Collingwood, in an curtain raiser"

Now, please note this featured FIRST return of curtain raisers to the 'G' is not featuring Coburg V Port Melb or any other non (AFL) genuine-in-name Reserve teams.
It features Geelong & Collingwood.

How long before other clubs want their own Reserves (VFL-AFL) teams under their clubs umbrella and playing close to or on the same grounds as their Seniors, for that ground's (A) Quality and (B) Similarity to playing under Senior standard conditions.

Like I said when I started this thread, welcome back to the future, welcome back to the AFL Reserves.

Shoot me down with all the 'supposed' arguments you have against what I've said. But hard, cold facts just keep cropping up vindicating the direction I see the VFL evolving into.

Today's article just sums up the game's evolution again.

An all-AFL Reserves is coming.
Teams will be again be Collingwood Reserves, Geelong Reserves, Richmond, Carlton etc, etc.
And where possible for a greater footballer experience, Reserve games will be played before the Seniors. It may not be expenditure wise, but it is entertainment and branding smarts.

Cheers

Well said! How great would it be watching Richmond Reserves instead of Coburg.

I have never watched a Coburg game live but would love to see the Richmond reserves play as a curtain raiser and see our youngsters play first hand.

 

[Cjkirbs19]

Deliberate, as a Collingwood supporter i can pretty much back up everything you had to say in favour of an AFL side having its own Reserves.

The reasons mentioned above for Essendon + the Kangaroo abandoning the model isn't because they get the same development into the players as they would with their own Reserves team. Essendon wasnt in as strong a financial position as was made to believe, and we all know the situation with the Kangaroos. We are now in such a healthy financial position that we are trying anything we can to get an edge on field. With a coach like Gavin Brown, the Reserves team will be used to:
1. Develop players in set positions.
2. Ensure the players are well aware of the game style the seniors incorporates.

Any club would love to still have their own Reserves side. Richmond does not control every aspect of Coburg (my best mate played with them this year, Filled me in so i was at least educated about the situation!!!).

Collingwood are playing up to 4 curtain raiser games at the MCG next season, which is alot more beneficial than playing at a non AFL Ground. There is only upside to this investment by the pies, and some clubs may have missed the boat..

 

[polakthetiger]

There is only upside to this investment by the pies, and some clubs may have missed the boat..

I agree with the 1st part, but where has the boat actually gone?

 

[Crumden]

If clubs can sustain the million $$ profits they are making this year, it is only a matter of time before more clubs follow suit. Finance is the only reason for giving up control of your junior players to an aligned VFL club.

 

[Weaver]

If clubs can sustain the million $$ profits they are making this year, it is only a matter of time before more clubs follow suit. Finance is the only reason for giving up control of your junior players to an aligned VFL club.

But as I have said in the past. Collingwood was alligned with a strong VFL club with cash of its own, who were not going to do whatever the Pies wanted.

In contrast Coburg is a basket case without a cent to their name. We just appointed our assistant coach (Rawlings) to the job. Coburg ARE the Richmond reserves.

I mean we staged a coup, axed the committee, appointed a new board of directors which includes Greg Miller.

Well said! How great would it be watching Richmond Reserves instead of Coburg

Exactly the same players, in exactly the same positions, playing in exactly the same way and 50% of the time in exactly the same jumper?

 

[Crumden]

But as I have said in the past. Collingwood was alligned with a strong VFL club with cash of its own, who were not going to do whatever the Pies wanted.

In contrast Coburg is a basket case without a cent to their name. We just appointed our assistant coach (Rawlings) to the job. Coburg ARE the Richmond reserves.

I mean we staged a coup, axed the committee, appointed a new board of directors which includes Greg Miller.



Exactly the same players, in exactly the same positions, playing in exactly the same way and 50% of the time in exactly the same jumper?

Then what do we gain by having them called Coburg and play in Coburg jumpers? If we already have a stand alone reserves team because Coburg are dead in the water, what benefits do we get out of it that we wouldn't get having a reserves team? I think it'd be better to have them play in the same Tiger jumper every week and feel part of the one club rather than the split personality of Coburg/Richmond.

 

[Weaver]

Then what do we gain by having them called Coburg and play in Coburg jumpers? If we already have a stand alone reserves team because Coburg are dead in the water, what benefits do we get out of it that we wouldn't get having a reserves team? I think it'd be better to have them play in the same Tiger jumper every week and feel part of the one club rather than the split personality of Coburg/Richmond.

A ground, a training facility, a volunteer organisation to run the club, and an (admitedly small) contribution to the cost of running the club.

The other part is the top-up players. The backbone of good VFL/Reserves teams are the experienced VFL players. Getting those blokes to play for a 'club' like Coburg is tough. Getting them to be top-up players for a Richmond reserves is tougher. Geelong has had nightmares trying to find blokes to play in their reserves ... only an injury free season helped them this year.

 

[telsor]

Then what do we gain by having them called Coburg and play in Coburg jumpers? If we already have a stand alone reserves team because Coburg are dead in the water, what benefits do we get out of it that we wouldn't get having a reserves team? I think it'd be better to have them play in the same Tiger jumper every week and feel part of the one club rather than the split personality of Coburg/Richmond.

Simple...$

Coburg still has it's rusted on fans, sponsors, who wouldn't support the Richmond reserves, not to mention they have their own ground, and get some $'s from it too. It mightn't be much, but it's money Richmond doesn't have to pay and can instead use to pay debt/expand the football dept, or whatever.

 

[Crumden]

The ground and training facilities are being dealt with by upgrades on Punt Road and the deal out Craigiburn way. As for the $$, I acknowledged that it would only come about if the $M profits were sustainable over the longer term. If they are, the additional amount Coburg throws in the coffers is less of a reason to maintain the current structure. Top-up players may be a reason to keep it, but if the two year old "tradition" of promoting a player to the rookie list continues, this makes it more attractive for top up players. Having said that, I'm not really sure how the top-up works for stand-alone reserves teams.

 

[Weaver]

The ground and training facilities are being dealt with by upgrades on Punt Road and the deal out Craigiburn way.

This is a bit of an over-excited myth on our part. Craigieburn will be training ground. There are no plans for carparking, cafeteria, fencing, ticket-booths, coaching boxes, stats boxes, timekeepers boxes, umpires rooms, public toilets, a room for president's lunches, a bar, a liqour licence etc, etc.

$10m is hardly a lot of money these days for any development. Casey Fields cost over $30m - the VFL oval alone cost $4.2m.

 

[deliberate!!]

Deliberate, as a Collingwood supporter i can pretty much back up everything you had to say in favour of an AFL side having its own Reserves.

The reasons mentioned above for Essendon + the Kangaroo abandoning the model isn't because they get the same development into the players as they would with their own Reserves team. Essendon wasnt in as strong a financial position as was made to believe, and we all know the situation with the Kangaroos. We are now in such a healthy financial position that we are trying anything we can to get an edge on field. With a coach like Gavin Brown, the Reserves team will be used to:
1. Develop players in set positions.
2. Ensure the players are well aware of the game style the seniors incorporates.

Any club would love to still have their own Reserves side. Richmond does not control every aspect of Coburg (my best mate played with them this year, Filled me in so i was at least educated about the situation!!!).

Collingwood are playing up to 4 curtain raiser games at the MCG next season, which is alot more beneficial than playing at a non AFL Ground. There is only upside to this investment by the pies, and some clubs may have missed the boat..

Cjkirbs19....anyone with any footballer awareness, would see the benefits of a complete Reserves feeder.....in name, in standards, under the direct control of Senior Management.

Ok.....here's a scenario......drop me into the Tigers coaching position or any other member here. As the coach, you want to be the figurehead of all things football....you want to control the destiny of that club for your tenure....not just the top end......cause I don't want players in the 2's, sent back to the 2's, or developing in the 2's without my influence. I also don't want players coming in contact with players NOT taught the Senior's way. I want the 2's players to me ready to step up and not drop away if sent back to the 2's. I want the 2's players to have the best of everything in case I need them or if they are ready to step up. Long gone are the days where teams can afford the time to drop players, have them wallow and then become permanent 2's players due to the level being too great a drop. And I don't want my players competing against the likes of Port Melbourne. I want them week in, week out coming up against other AFL teams Reserve sides.

Now, I've been in the job a short while and I look back six years and find Geelong and Collingwood have won the past six Reserve flags. These two sides take this competition serious, and it benefits every player in their squad and lifts the standard and professionalism of the whole club. Now some board member or President tells me we can't afford it. Do you think I'm going to let my club fall beside the wayside, while, however perceived it may me, let Geelong and Collingwood push the envelope with their standards, thinking and foresight? No, I have to keep up. If not, I'm derelict in my duty to my club. If I want to stay like that I may as well refuse all other thinking outside the box. I may as well take my team back to training only on Tuesday and Thursday night and having the players wear ankle high boots and nail in stops!!

Cjkirbs19.....Your team, like Geelong are only trying to get an edge, and in Geelong's case this year it showed through the entire club.

And Richmond's last great period of success was when we basically had an Academy feel in place in the club. Collingwood are now setting in motion that Academy standard. As much as I hate to say it, good luck......it is the future.
Money will be found By other clubs when this is found to be a success for the respective clubs, instead of the splintered and fractured Seniors to VFL rubbish we have now.

Cheers

(And look out to all the other 'Flat Earthers'......the future is coming.....and it's wearing the same colour jumpers as the Seniors....lol)

 

[Weaver]

(And look out to all the other 'Flat Earthers'......the future is coming.....and it's wearing the same colour jumpers as the Seniors....lol)

If you could name one thing that would be different between the current Coburg set-up and a future Richmond reserves (other than the jumper) I would take your motherhood statement with more respect.

About the only real difference would have to go without a Coburg reserves side. And quite frankly there are plenty of blokes who should be playing at that level or dropped back there. The extra competition from below helps make the Coburg side more competitive.

 

[polakthetiger]

About the only real difference would have to go without a Coburg reserves side. And quite frankly there are plenty of blokes who should be playing at that level or dropped back there. The extra competition from below helps make the Coburg side more competitive.

Good point Weaver and one that hasn't been brought up yet on this thread. Where do the players come from during the season for the reserves team? Or do they have reserves too? With an AFL and reserves teams only, just like every club really, you have 4 or 5 (hopefully) sitting out each week because they didn't make the reserves team. (not 'hopefully' if you are one of the 5), but needed for injuries through the season.

But another advantage of the Coburg set up is there are 2 teams to work with all feeding to the ultimate AFL team. Especially with the 17/18 y.o. kids that may even be on the AFL list but are bodywise a couple of years behind others and you want to start them to get some confidence running around in the reserves, with the goal to get regular 'senior' Coburg games by the end of the season. Two teams to work with to bring them up and down as they progress and develop. Then onto the main arena.

I guess the two team system says, we have one team really, just like we all played in no doubt whether in Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth or country comps. The seniors is where the action is, you guys in the 2's are only really running around because you aren't good enough. So either get better, or piss off. Not really, don't go, we need you 'cause playing with 15 really sucks! But if you are a 17 y.o., or late developer, get ready to take some hits from some angry opposition senior guys who have been dropped.

Having said all that, I am all for the old system, ressie play before the main game. Get to the ground around at half time of the ressies, grab a pie and a beer and get the BS chatting with the mates out of the way. By the end of the ressies you have had a good look at who could be pressing for selection next week. Your seats all warm and the next beer is in hand before the main game. Bring it on big D

 

[LarryLong]

Now, I've been in the job a short while and I look back six years and find Geelong and Collingwood have won the past six Reserve flags.

Of course, this would need to happen before you could use it to prove your point.

It doesn't make sense in most cases. If you have full control, you would sometimes play kids in positions that they are not qualified for, against better oposition, rather than playing more capable, mature VFL players in those positions. You might play a few rookies who are VFL reserves standard in the VFL ones to try and bring them up to standard at the expense of decent VFL grunt types. You might introduce an AFL style game plan that relies on precise skill and play that way even if your team's top-up players aren't up to playing that way and would be more effective banging the ball forward 50m to a contest.

Sure, that's what the clubs would want. You're going to lose a few games doing that though.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[Crumden]

This is a bit of an over-excited myth on our part. Craigieburn will be training ground. There are no plans for carparking, cafeteria, fencing, ticket-booths, coaching boxes, stats boxes, timekeepers boxes, umpires rooms, public toilets, a room for president's lunches, a bar, a liqour licence etc, etc.

Your right that Craigieburn just provides training facilities. Punt Road and the MCG can provide the match day facilities.

About the only real difference would have to go without a Coburg reserves side. And quite frankly there are plenty of blokes who should be playing at that level or dropped back there. The extra competition from below helps make the Coburg side more competitive.

The fact that some of our players end up in Coburg reserves is a reason against aligning with Coburg, not for it. Can't see any benefit in players running around in Coburg twos.

Good point Weaver and one that hasn't been brought up yet on this thread. Where do the players come from during the season for the reserves team? Or do they have reserves too? With an AFL and reserves teams only, just like every club really, you have 4 or 5 (hopefully) sitting out each week because they didn't make the reserves team. (not 'hopefully' if you are one of the 5), but needed for injuries through the season.

But another advantage of the Coburg set up is there are 2 teams to work with all feeding to the ultimate AFL team. Especially with the 17/18 y.o. kids that may even be on the AFL list but are bodywise a couple of years behind others and you want to start them to get some confidence running around in the reserves, with the goal to get regular 'senior' Coburg games by the end of the season. Two teams to work with to bring them up and down as they progress and develop. Then onto the main arena.

The VFL these days is a bit different to the old reserves comps of years ago where you had lots of senior depth players running around, so needing a thirds team for light bodied players isn't very compelling.

We have 44 players on a list, so no player would ever miss a game. More likley we would need 10-15 top up players each week to cover injuries.

And we could always get the Flea and the Dominator to pull on a jumper (if we could find one to fit). Just like Barry Rowlings had to many years ago.

The only reason to stick with Coburg is to save a bit of coin, and maybe for top-up players. If it becomes financially viable, then the one remaining reason doesn't seem all that convincing.

 

[deliberate!!]

If you could name one thing that would be different between the current Coburg set-up and a future Richmond reserves (other than the jumper) I would take your motherhood statement with more respect.

About the only real difference would have to go without a Coburg reserves side. And quite frankly there are plenty of blokes who should be playing at that level or dropped back there. The extra competition from below helps make the Coburg side more competitive.

Ok Weaver, bring on the respect

(1) A future Richmond Reserve side would entirely be selected by the RFC with an eye to ANY of these players developing up into the Senior side. How many of the Coburg players are allowed, through registration and regulation, to walk straight into the Richmond Senior side the following week? All of them? I think not.

(2) Some don't seem to understand that with a Richmond Reserve side WE registered and selected, the playing list and style of player is what we think is sufficient to make the step up eventually to Senior football. Not who Coburg thinks will get a kick in their inferior league.

(3) A Richmond Reserve side of our choosing standardizes the playing list. Why have possible future Senior players in the Reserves, getting a kick, getting influenced by players who aren't good enough to play AFL anyway.
This is ridiculous. Are you telling me, you think a dropped Senior player or young RFC hopeful is equal to some of those permanent players spending their careers in the VFL? This is a step down. A bad unprofessional step-down.

(4) As Geelong and Collingwood are proving next year, these sides have more chance of getting a warm up game (or as you will learn to love this old term), a "Reserves game" on the 'G' or Telstra, than Coburg or Port Melb will have in a thousand years.

(5) And clubs will want whenever possible for their fans to see their 'Reserves' side before the main game. This makes loyalty, enjoyment and branding sense.

(6) And if the only difference a Richmond Reserves side would have would be to wear a Richmond jumper other than a Coburg jumper, that's a good enough reason for me. And that's a big enough reason to stand on it's own and justify a Richmond Reserve side. What's bigger than that?
But it wouldn't be just a Richmond Reserves side hiding Coburg players. I'd clear all them out for the reasons stated above. If we've gotta widened the lists, so be it. If we've gotta find more money, so be it.
The future doesn't come cheap or easy.

Anyway, I'm open to have all my points shot down, but the evolution's coming, and all the arguments against it will be swept aside.

Cheers
deliberate!!

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Not sure if im 100% correct on this but doesnt Coburg get funds through the VFL?Might be only 100K per year but it means that 100K we dont have to fork out if we went it alone.Id prefer that 100K be spent on development or recruiting

 

[Weaver]

(1) A future Richmond Reserve side would entirely be selected by the RFC with an eye to ANY of these players developing up into the Senior side. How many of the Coburg players are allowed, through registration and regulation, to walk straight into the Richmond Senior side the following week? All of them? I think not.

We do select the Coburg side. Jade Rawlings is coach. Many good Coburg players have left because they have been denied games they merited and been played out of position.

The idea that Richmond players are being denied opportortunites is a myth with only Petterson, Clingan and Hartigan spending time in the ressies and that is where they should have been.

(2) Some don't seem to understand that with a Richmond Reserve side WE registered and selected, the playing list and style of player is what we think is sufficient to make the step up eventually to Senior football. Not who Coburg thinks will get a kick in their inferior league.

We pick the team. Rawlings is coach. At least one of Wallace, King and Royal are in the rooms every week. GM Ryan O'Connor works out of Punt Rd most of the week. Greg Miller and O'Connor used to share an assistant. Miller sits on the Coburg board.

(3) A Richmond Reserve side of our choosing standardizes the playing list. Why have possible future Senior players in the Reserves, getting a kick, getting influenced by players who aren't good enough to play AFL anyway.
This is ridiculous. Are you telling me, you think a dropped Senior player or young RFC hopeful is equal to some of those permanent players spending their careers in the VFL? This is a step down. A bad unprofessional step-down.

There are many VFL players better than fringe AFL players. Al Neville carves up the VFL. King carved up the VFL. Silvester is a better fullback than anyone on the Richmond list.

The difference is that a 22-year VFL player with a few years experience will typically outperform an 18-year old late draftee NOW. The reason the 18 year old is there is that he MIGHT be the better player in 3 years.

Travis Ronaldson would give Pattison, Putt, Polak and possibly Simmonds a bath in the ruck NOW.

The teams that win in the VFL are the ones built around a core of experienced VFL bodies in the mid-20s. The ones who aren't quite good enough for the AFL but can easily account for 18-year olds who may spend 2 years on lists, never get near the AFL grade and then get cut.

Hartigan or Roach are great case studies. Heaps assume he must be a good VFL player because he is on an AFL list. The moment they are cut they are ordinary VFL players being handed their hat by guys like Howat, Neville, Carnell, Shelton.

At the moment those experienced competitive guys help make the Coburg side more competitive. That in turn sees the Richmond guys playing at a higher level, in winning teams, and able to show their ability.

You don't have forwards starved of the ball, defenders swamped, and wingers denied clearance players. We actually have a ruckman who can bring guys into the game.

(4) As Geelong and Collingwood are proving next year, these sides have more chance of getting a warm up game (or as you will learn to love this old term), a "Reserves game" on the 'G' or Telstra, than Coburg or Port Melb will have in a thousand years.

We'll have to wait and see. There simply aren't enough venues anymore to allow the Dome and MCG to take extra matches. It would probably come down to a 1-game ration per team.

(5) And clubs will want whenever possible for their fans to see their 'Reserves' side before the main game. This makes loyalty, enjoyment and branding sense.

A second independant side allows for TV exposure, a second marketing tool, and the chance (as with St Kilda-Casey, or Essendon-Bendigo) to market into a new community.

(6) And if the only difference a Richmond Reserves side would have would be to wear a Richmond jumper other than a Coburg jumper, that's a good enough reason for me. And that's a big enough reason to stand on it's own and justify a Richmond Reserve side. What's bigger than that?

Considering that most of this forum can't be fagged actually going to a game then they'd never know what jumper they were wearing.

But it wouldn't be just a Richmond Reserves side hiding Coburg players. I'd clear all them out for the reasons stated above. If we've gotta widened the lists, so be it. If we've gotta find more money, so be it.
The future doesn't come cheap or easy.

Your contention about hiding Coburg players is simply false.

Anyway, I'm open to have all my points shot down, but the evolution's coming, and all the arguments against it will be swept aside.

At those clubs like Collingwood that could not have their own way with their reserves team - yep.

At Richmond which already has a Reserves side doing exactly what we want - there is no need.

 

[WilliamPowell]

In contrast Coburg is a basket case without a cent to their name.

You obviously haven't read the latest financials that were just sent out to the Coburg members for the AGM. Money in the bank and back in the black - doesnt read as a basket case to me