Mega Thread VICBias - Genuine Discussion Part 2

[doppleganger]

It is only Collingwood fans defending AFL houses terrible running of a competition. Wonder why just that club?

Which Collingwood fans are defending AFL House?

Collingwood fans know we get a good deal compared to Melbourne based teams.

But the reality is that AFL House shafted Melbourne teams via Melbourne ground rationalisation.

The successful teams of the 21st century are those who retain a home ground advantage.

The disadvantaged teams are those who were forced into shit stadium deals, and so relocate home games, giving away home ground advantage in the process.

AFL House has eroded the basic underlying premise of a H&A fixture, having equal home games and equal away games.

The WA wowsers try and hijack it into a did you get on a plane or not, which aint ever what home ground advantage has ever been about.

 

[doppleganger]

A home and away against every team is impossible and every variety of fix anyone can come up with is still shit. The only thing even remotely equitable would be playing every side home and away evenly over a three year period. There's no chance of that happening cos the big 4 vfl teams have to play each other twice every year. That's #VICBIAS.

Pies aren't playing Richmond twice this year, and many Pie fans wouldn't really care if we swapped a double against Essendon with a double against Stk or Dogs etc.

The real reason why an even rotation over 4 years wouldn't happen is no double Derby. That means WC/Freo would then cop 11 games in WA and 12 outside WA most years.

The sooking about travel is unbearable now, and that is with AFL House helping the WA teams out!

 

[Underarm]

A home and away against every team is impossible and every variety of fix anyone can come up with is still shit. The only thing even remotely equitable would be playing every side home and away evenly over a three year period. There's no chance of that happening cos the big 4 vfl teams have to play each other twice every year. That's #VICBIAS[].

Locking in 2 derbies helps fremantle way more than locking in Essendon V Carlton twice each year.

 

[Cam Payne]

Locking in 2 derbies helps fremantle way more than locking in Essendon V Carlton twice each year.

Two derbies would vanish in a heartbeat if your people thought it would advantage them.

 

[Cam Payne]

Pies aren't playing Richmond twice this year, and many Pie fans wouldn't really care if we swapped a double against Essendon with a double against Stk or Dogs etc.

The real reason why an even rotation over 4 years wouldn't happen is no double Derby. That means WC/Freo would then cop 11 games in WA and 12 outside WA most years.

The sooking about travel is unbearable now, and that is with AFL House helping the WA teams out!

Getting rid of the 2 derbies is part of what was proposed and has nothing to do with sooking about travel. It's about getting rid of the arbitrary bullshit of you play this mob twice, that mob once and not at that ground for 6 years. That applies to everyone.

Edit *you does not mean you specifically.

P.s. "Unbearable" how many times have you posted on this thread?

 

[im_a_lazy_sod]

Two derbies would vanish in a heartbeat if your people thought it would advantage them.

Means one less vic club has to travel all the way to Perth too

Also how’s fox releasing their proposed state of origin teams? I mean Victorian state of origin team and then a best of the rest

If that’s not an indicator of the underlying VIC v the rest mentality then I don’t know what is. Understand if it was their state media or a local take, but no it’s their national mouthpiece for sport in Australia

 

[JackOutback]

The fairest fixture is like the premier league, play ALL teams at home and away. That is what the 12 team VFL used to be, hence 22 rounds.

But the 22 (now 23) dont mean anything in terms of fairness, it is just the commercial arrangement for so many games.

When you have a mismatched teams and rounds, with significant geographic issues, the best model is to adopt smaller divisional splits (the US models).

If AFL expands to 20 teams (one more in WA) the best approach is to have 4 small groups of 5.

The Pavlich group - SA/WA (an extra WA team)
East coast group - NSW/QLD/Tas
Two VIC groups

You have double ups against your own group (minimise travel for ALL teams) and then have an agreed rotation to play other groups once.

So retain the 23 games.

You are ranked against your group first and foremost, top 2 make it to finals.

That is a fair fixture that minimises travel.

You then need to get into detail re rest, byes, prime time exposure etc.

That's probably about as fair as it can get, given geography and concentration. However, a 20th team is still a decade or so away, so an interim measure still needs to be considered. At the very least, rest times, byes, extra-long trips all need to be considered for next season.

Prime time exposure is separate to issues around travel, injury etc, so needs to considered separately. But there needs to be a move away from BigClubBias (if you prefer) because the AFL is creating a self-fulfilling prophecy by booking the same teams in prime slots and then claiming people really want to see these teams. History shows if you put two teams travelling well up against each other in prime slots, people turn out.

 

[Underarm]

Means one less vic club has to travel all the way to Perth too

Also how’s fox releasing their proposed state of origin teams? I mean Victorian state of origin team and then a best of the rest

If that’s not an indicator of the underlying VIC v the rest mentality then I don’t know what is. Understand if it was their state media or a local take, but no it’s their national mouthpiece for sport in Australia

Only way the rest gets close to a competitive team

 

[dont bowl there]

That's probably about as fair as it can get, given geography and concentration. However, a 20th team is still a decade or so away, so an interim measure still needs to be considered. At the very least, rest times, byes, extra-long trips all need to be considered for next season.

Prime time exposure is separate to issues around travel, injury etc, so needs to considered separately. But there needs to be a move away from BigClubBias (if you prefer) because the AFL is creating a self-fulfilling prophecy by booking the same teams in prime slots and then claiming people really want to see these teams. History shows if you put two teams travelling well up against each other in prime slots, people turn out.

I guess a little credit to the AFL in creating the flexible fixture where they can give the good timeslots to the teams playing well. Gone are the days of watching Carlton play 14 Friday night matches when they are bottom 4.

 

[sr36]

The fairest fixture is like the premier league, play ALL teams at home and away. That is what the 12 team VFL used to be, hence 22 rounds.

But the 22 (now 23) dont mean anything in terms of fairness, it is just the commercial arrangement for so many games.

When you have a mismatched teams and rounds, with significant geographic issues, the best model is to adopt smaller divisional splits (the US models).

If AFL expands to 20 teams (one more in WA) the best approach is to have 4 small groups of 5.

The Pavlich group - SA/WA (an extra WA team)
East coast group - NSW/QLD/Tas
Two VIC groups

You have double ups against your own group (minimise travel for ALL teams) and then have an agreed rotation to play other groups once.

So retain the 23 games.

You are ranked against your group first and foremost, top 2 make it to finals.

That is a fair fixture that minimises travel.

You then need to get into detail re rest, byes, prime time exposure etc.

Nah. You'll get years where 3 teams in a group are really strong and a genuine contender won't even make finals.

The current ranking teams into thirds and basing the draw on that is better. People just can't see it because they associate it with all the other bullshit that the AFL add into the fixture.

 

[peetoo]

A home and away against every team is impossible and every variety of fix anyone can come up with is still shit. The only thing even remotely equitable would be playing every side home and away evenly over a three year period. There's no chance of that happening cos the big 4 vfl teams have to play each other twice every year. That's #VICBIAS.

They don’t actually, but wa sa qld nsw teams do

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Nah. You'll get years where 3 teams in a group are really strong and a genuine contender won't even make finals.

The current ranking teams into thirds and basing the draw on that is better. People just can't see it because they associate it with all the other bullshit that the AFL add into the fixture.

We get that now where teams make it or don’t make finals based on who the double ups are and where and when their games are played.
I prefer two conferences of 9 teams.

 

[sr36]

We get that now where teams make it or don’t make finals based on who the double ups are and where and when their games are played.
I prefer two conferences of 9 teams.

What's the advantage?

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Ok quick question in regards to playing each club twice. Historically we cannot do it because of season length and how physically hard our game is.
Cricket is played all year round so no reason footy cannot go for 30 or more weeks. It would be different but it’s not impossible.
Secondly the physicality of our sport is vastly different than it was 30 odd years ago.
The AFL are slowly but surely removing heavy contact from the sport so the days of waking up bruised and battered are well behind us. That is not to say the game is not hard still but it’s certainly not what it was.
With bigger list sizes why is it not possible to play each side twice now or start heading towards it?

 

[greatwhiteshark]

What's the advantage?

Not sure , guess it would be as crap as it is now just trying to improve things is ok you know.

 

[sr36]

Not sure , guess it would be as crap as it is now just trying to improve things is ok you know.

I like the thirds concept. It's the other layers they've chosen that are the issue. Just make it so that everyone is drawn to play doubles against two good teams from the previous year, two medium teams and 2 struggling teams. Within that you can make it so that every team plays each other a very similar amount over a given period of time. I don't see how you could make it fairer in terms of your opponents.

Within that structure you can choose to keep the showdown doubles to reduce travel and help build Northern rivalries and passion for the game. More other tweaks can be done around travel.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

I like the thirds concept. It's the other layers they've chosen that are the issue. Just make it so that everyone is drawn to play doubles against two good teams from the previous year, two medium teams and 2 struggling teams. Within that you can make it so that every team plays each other a very similar amount over a given period of time. I don't see how you could make it fairer in terms of your opponents.

Within that structure you can choose to keep the showdown doubles to reduce travel and help build Northern rivalries and passion for the game. More other tweaks can be done around travel.

How about the thirds concept but done after round 17 and do it exactly based on the ladder position. No exceptions. Top 6, middle six, bottom 6. No sub laws. You play all those sides twice.

 

[Underarm]

Ok quick question in regards to playing each club twice. Historically we cannot do it because of season length and how physically hard our game is.
Cricket is played all year round so no reason footy cannot go for 30 or more weeks. It would be different but it’s not impossible.
Secondly the physicality of our sport is vastly different than it was 30 odd years ago.
The AFL are slowly but surely removing heavy contact from the sport so the days of waking up bruised and battered are well behind us. That is not to say the game is not hard still but it’s certainly not what it was.
With bigger list sizes why is it not possible to play each side twice now or start heading towards it?

34 weeks, plus 3 byes =37 weeks. plus Finals = 41 weeks. + Pre season =49 weeks.

So 2 week holidays for the players.

 

[Underarm]

How about the thirds concept but done after round 17 and do it exactly based on the ladder position. No exceptions. Top 6, middle six, bottom 6. No sub laws. You play all those sides twice.

half the teams get 9 home games, the other half 8. And the teams you double up would end being remarkably similar to the ones you would play if it was done on the previous years ladder.

 

[sr36]

How about the thirds concept but done after round 17 and do it exactly based on the ladder position. No exceptions. Top 6, middle six, bottom 6. No sub laws. You play all those sides twice.

That works well in terms of equality of opposition. You might get into issues in terms of equal home and away, as the first one is already locked in, so it might not always work perfectly. And in terms of the rolling draw thing, you could factor in how often you've played them recently when divvying up the 2 of the 6 you get.

I think doing it on last year's ladder is better though, as the big issue is trust. So many have bought into AFL as this powerful conspirer that if a team drew Sydney and Carlton at that stage of the season when they look well above the 5 and 6 teams there'd be assumptions of rigging and a heap of carry on.

 

[peetoo]

20 teams 19 round play equal home and away over 2 years including finals it’s 6 more weeks till the grand final

Rejigger the finals over 6 weeks with up to 12 qualifiers.

So vic fans don’t have to travel as much? That’s just tough

 

[Freshwater]

Nah. You'll get years where 3 teams in a group are really strong and a genuine contender won't even make finals.

The current ranking teams into thirds and basing the draw on that is better. People just can't see it because they associate it with all the other bullshit that the AFL add into the fixture.

Except this doesn’t happen. Same teams play each other twice every year without exception wherever they finish on the ladder. We get North, Giants, Geelong, Fremantle, twice every year without a doubt no matter where they finish.

 

[sr36]

Except this doesn’t happen. Same teams play each other twice every year without exception wherever they finish on the ladder. We get North, Giants, Geelong, Fremantle, twice every year without a doubt no matter where they finish.

That particular combination of teams would have been pretty easy to work into it over the last 10 years.

Who do you double up on this year. I haven't checked how strictly the AFL are doing it - I'm not advocating for the intentional double up, I think that's rubbish - just advocating for dividing into thirds to build a fiar draw around.

 

[Freshwater]

That particular combination of teams would have been pretty easy to work into it over the last 10 years.

Who do you double up on this year. I haven't checked how strictly the AFL are doing it - I'm not advocating for the intentional double up, I think that's rubbish - just advocating for dividing into thirds to build a fiar draw around.

Unfortunately someone in the media said they break the ladder into thirds and the next year you double up against those teams. It is total fallacy, it never happens, not even close.

 

[sr36]

Unfortunately someone in the media said they break the ladder into thirds and the next year you double up against those teams. It is total fallacy, it never happens, not even close.

No you don't double up against those teams. Either you misunderstood or the person was talking crap. That's not the system

Dogs were middle 6 on the ladder last year, so your double ups are 2 from the each third of last year's ladder.

Your double ups are:

1st 6 Melb and GWS
2nd 6 Sydney and Geel
3rd 6 North and Dockers

It doesn't always work perfectly with all the other stuff they try to make fit as well - but that's the basic thing that they request from their fixturing program. Obviously they also request specific doubles, 5 away games against non-vic clubs for each vic team, etc...

When you get the similar teams every year - that's about different requests the AFL make to their program than the basic 3 thirds fixturing that they do. That's layers they've added with all their additional requests.