Mega Thread VICBias - Genuine Discussion Part 2

[RUNVS]

You'll need to exclude 2008 from your stats then.

I said none in 2024. I think we can all agree that fitness standards in the mid 90's were not what they are now.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

There have been 19 Grand Finals at the MCG between a Victorian team and a non-Victorian team and the record is 10-9 in favour of the Vic teams. As close to 50-50 as you can get.

The crowd split at the Grand Final is unlike a home and away game. The non-vic team has a huge presence - crowd support is split quite evenly. The travelling team comes down to Melbourne before the parade so they are here for a couple of days. The MCG also hosts 45 games per year. It’s a stadium not an intimate suburban ground that away teams barely play at like Kardinia Park. From a large sample size of 19 matches from 1992-2023 over 32 years, the 10-9 record shows there is no proveable advantage.

A lot of this crap comes down to people playing the victim. It’s seductive to play the victim because people get to blame things other than themselves for losing games. It’s human nature to play the victim and to take no responsibility.

Do Melbourne Storm play the victim? No. They get on with it and win premierships.

The best any non vic team support at a grand final will be around 35% at very best. Always is a heavily favoured Vic team crowd.
This so called neutrals crap is bullshit.
In 2018 I have never seen so many genuine Pies members favs in my life, neutrals don’t wear Pies jumpers. Would easily of been 55k pies genuine fans or members. Now how they got tickets only god knows but somehow they did???

 

[doppleganger]

The best any non vic team support at a grand final will be around 35% at very best. Always is a heavily favoured Vic team crowd.
This so called neutrals crap is bullshit.
In 2018 I have never seen so many genuine Pies members favs in my life, neutrals don’t wear Pies jumpers. Would easily of been 55k pies genuine fans or members. Now how they got tickets only god knows but somehow they did???

AFL members, massive Pie representation and no Eagles.
MCC members, would be 50% Pies and again no Eagles.

Blow up AFL members and give more tickets directly to competing clubs.

The point of GF is it is a wall of noise all game, it aint a one way noise of affirmation like a WC game at Optus or Pies PF against GWS.

 

[Obeanie1]

It is meant to be an away game for WC, where they are meant to cop a disadvantage compared to their opponent...you know the usual rant of 10 games with home advantage, and 10 with away disadvantage.

But the North players dont get to sleep at home, spend time with family, play in front of home fans at their familiar home ground, go to usual coffee shop, get the top notch facilities.

Instead they are also playing away, travelling, playing in the cold.

If playing away is harder than playing at home, North have given up any advantage they may have had.

That is undeniable.

Except that some VIC based teams actually travel more than SA clubs.

Again, that is undeniable.

The VIC v non-vic grouping is lazy, especially in relation to travel.


You are complaining that you dont have to play a game at an opponents home ground!



They are both wide open.

An away game in Darwin or Tassie is more challenging than an away game in Melbourne. Don't have any issue playing away. It's being sent to the arse end of nowhere to play away games that is the issue.

Note that you use Vic minow clubs in your examples.

The runts of the litter that get thrown the scraps after VAFL House have looked after the big traditional clubs.

How convenient.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

AFL members, massive Pie representation and no Eagles.
MCC members, would be 50% Pies and again no Eagles.

Blow up AFL members and give more tickets directly to competing clubs.

The point of GF is it is a wall of noise all game, it aint a one way noise of affirmation like a WC game at Optus or Pies PF against GWS.

My Point mate was its not a neutral crowd as some think it is. But you know this.

Based on what you just said though, in an eagles pies GF then Pies don't need any more tickets. Eagles should get 40K and the rest sorts itself out.

 

[tribey]

Geeze, I thought Gil would fix everything being a South Australian and all.

Mmm, the guy who claims to be a St Kilda fan [the most inoffensive, pitiable club there is], but often went to the MCG to barrack for Adelaide (see above).

And when he was 2IC under Demetriou, effectively torpedoed Heritage Round by suggesting we wear a 1980’s training guernsey rather than insist on repping the prisonbar.

And whose speech at the 2015 season launch featured zingers about turning down Port’s request for some sort of list-related compensation after Ryder and Monfries were suspended for 12 months thanks to Essendon’s follies.

Was like playing chess with 8 queens when Ol’ Fruchocs Gil was watching over us.

 

[Dan26]

The best any non vic team support at a grand final will be around 35% at very best. Always is a heavily favoured Vic team crowd.
This so called neutrals crap is bullshit.
In 2018 I have never seen so many genuine Pies members favs in my life, neutrals don’t wear Pies jumpers. Would easily of been 55k pies genuine fans or members. Now how they got tickets only god knows but somehow they did???

I've been to 31 Grand Finals. The atmosphere and crowd engagement at a Grand Final is different to a home and away game and more neutral in nature. The crowd doesn't have to be exactly 50-50 for there to be no advantage. It doesnt work that way - it's not a mathematical equation. There is a critical mass of crowd support at a Grand Final (i'd estimate around 30%) that once it reaches that critical mass, there is no advantage either way.

It wasn't as if there wasn't a massive roar in 2018 whenever West Coast kicked a goal. There was. They would have had 30,000 people barracking for them at the game. That's totally different to a H&A game where they might have 4,000 at an away game. There is a myth that unless the crowd is exactly 50-50, then it means one team has a massive advantage. Once there is 25,000-30,000 people barracking for a team at a game, that is enough to make significant noise, that there is no disadvantage for them.

Stop being victims. If you are the better team, you will win.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

I've been to 31 Grand Finals. The atmosphere and crowd engagement at a Grand Final is different to a home and away game and more neutral in nature. The crowd doesn't have to be exactly 50-50 for there to be no advantage. It doesnt work that way - it's not a mathematical equation. There is a critical mass of crowd support at a Grand Final (i'd estimate around 30%) that once it reaches that critical mass, there is no advantage either way.

It wasn't as if there wasn't a massive roar in 2018 whenever West Coast kicked a goal. There was. They would have had 30,000 people barracking for them at the game. That's totally different to a H&A game where they might have 4,000 at an away game. There is a myth that unless the crowd is exactly 50-50, then it means one team has a massive advantage. Once there is 25,000-30,000 people barracking for a team at a game, that is enough to make significant noise, that there is no disadvantage for them.

Stop being victims. If you are the better team, you will win.

Another Victorian in denial.

“ it’s not a lie if you believe it”

 

[Dan26]

Another Victorian in denial.

“ it’s not a lie if you believe it”

I think I'd know. I go to the Grand Final every year. You don't. There wouldn't have been a single match where any team had less than 30% of the support. And as I said, 30% is enough to ensure no one has any significant advantage,

When a Vic team plays a non-Vic team the record is 10-9, showing there is no advantage over a sample size of over 30 years. I'm not in denial of anything. I deal with the facts, I look at the empirical evidence and I make measured rational observations.

If you play the victim you'll never achieve anything in life.

 

[LoungeLizard]

View attachment 2078994

Mmm, the guy who claims to be a St Kilda fan [the most inoffensive, pitiable club there is], but often went to the MCG to barrack for Adelaide (see above).

And when he was 2IC under Demetriou, effectively torpedoed Heritage Round by suggesting we wear a 1980’s training guernsey rather than insist on repping the prisonbar.

And whose speech at the 2015 season launch featured zingers about turning down Port’s request for some sort of list-related compensation after Ryder and Monfries were suspended for 12 months thanks to Essendon’s follies.

Was like playing chess with 8 queens when Ol’ Fruchocs Gil was watching over us.

You're not saying South Australians are the corrupt ones are you?

 

[tribey]

You're not saying South Australians are the corrupt ones are you?

Only certain current club chairmen.

 

[Dan26]

Yes, and something has changed since then. From 2007 there has been a noticable shift, and it is likely down to the professioanlism of the competition now compared to the mid 90's. Things are tighter than they used to be and as a result the advantages that Victorian clubs get are more important due to the tighter nature of the competition.

No nothing has changed. Its like anything, over a large sample size it works out to be 50-50. From 1992-2003, the record for Vic teams versus Non-Vic teams in the Grand Final was 1-7.

Like anything that is 50-50, it balances out and reverts to the mean, and the record is now 10-9. You're playing the victim again, whingeing there is some massive advantage in "only" having 30,000 fans at the Grand Final. Stop sooking. You are not a victim. If your team is good enough they will win the premiership. All the evidence over 30 years shows that there is no advantage.

It's 10-9 FFS. Stop sooking that you're hard done by. You're not.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Another Victorian in denial.

“ it’s not a lie if you believe it”

I would say 31 grand finals gives him more of an idea than you.

If anyone is in denial it would be you I think.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

I would say 31 grand finals gives him more of an idea than you.

If anyone is in denial it would be you I think.

I have been to 10? wtf does that mean?
I played state cricket, anyone who has not played that level cannot know as much as I do about cricket.
How stupid can one be to believe this type of crap.
Again anyone who thinks a non vic side playing a vic side in a gf is nit starting at a disadvantage seriously needs to go get some help.
The entire industry including the League itself admits it is yet a few supporters want to deny it.
Your actual coach concedes the league is unfair, you don’t believe him either.
Cmon mate you’re making yourself sound like an idiot and I dont think you are.
There is nothing wrong with admitting the obvious. It is nit as if it’s going to change, the non vic clubs will continue to climb the mountain on GF day.
They have done great to win 9 so far against incredible odds, just shows how strong those sides were.

 

[LoungeLizard]

I have been to 10? wtf does that mean?
I played state cricket, anyone who has not played that level cannot know as much as I do about cricket.
How stupid can one be to believe this type of crap.
Again anyone who thinks a non vic side playing a vic side in a gf is nit starting at a disadvantage seriously needs to go get some help.
The entire industry including the League itself admits it is yet a few supporters want to deny it.
Your actual coach concedes the league is unfair, you don’t believe him either.
Cmon mate you’re making yourself sound like an idiot and I dont think you are.
There is nothing wrong with admitting the obvious. It is nit as if it’s going to change, the non vic clubs will continue to climb the mountain on GF day.
They have done great to win 9 so far against incredible odds, just shows how strong those sides were.

See there you go cracking the shits again.

You said.
"Another Victorian in denial"

If you want to throw mud, expect it to come back, you actually seem very fragile.

And I've never once said we don't have an advantage, it's just some of you lot think every little thing is an advantage to the Vics.

The poster said he'd been to 31 grand finals, and you dismissed it as denial.

 

[doppleganger]

How do these Marvel teams lose home ground advantage playing at the MCG?

The hint is in the name

Home ground advantage.

If you dont play at your home ground, there aint any ground advantage.

Collingwood didnt have an advantage at Windy Hill or Waverley, but we did at Victoria Park.

Do their fans refuse to attend the best venue in the land?

Do they rarely play there?

Both correct.

Collingwood get 30K crowds to games against non-vic teams at Marvel.

At the G we get 70K.

The fans know it aint home, they dont get their usual reserved seats, all the usual "home" routines dont occur.

It is effectively a game at a foreign ground, like going to Western Oval or Ardern Street.

Only a numpty would say Collingwood v Western Bulldogs at Whiiten Oval was an advantage to Collingwood.

And our opponents play at Marvel just as much as we do.

If you are not at your home ground, the advantage isnt the same as if your were at your home ground.

It should be bloody obvious.

Is there extra travel playing at the MCG rather than Marvel?

There is extra travel for Hawthorn going to Tassie instead of playing at the G.

There is no extra travel for WC going to Tassie compared to the G.

The disadvantaged club in terms of travel is the home team who should have no travel, but are all of a sudden playing away and travelling.

Again should be obvious.

Ask any player where they prefer to play. I would bet a body part 99.8% would choose the MCG.

Who are they playing for and what is the question?

99% would want to play a GF at the G in front of 100k.

99% would prefer to play their home game at home.

 

[sr36]

I said none in 2024. I think we can all agree that fitness standards in the mid 90's were not what they are now.

Right, so the premiership tally is sitting at 0-0 in this new, professional, no fatties (except for Stringer) era?

 

[greatwhiteshark]

See there you go cracking the shits again.

You said.
"Another Victorian in denial"

If you want to throw mud, expect it to come back, you actually seem very fragile.

And I've never once said we don't have an advantage, it's just some of you lot think every little thing is an advantage to the Vics.

The poster said he'd been to 31 grand finals, and you dismissed it as denial.

I did not dismiss it I said he is denying the obvious. That he has been to 100 GF makes no difference. He will only ever see it from a local Victorian sides point of view.
He does not believe Mick Malthouse, Malcolm Blight, Leigh Mathews who know its an advantage to the Vic clubs, if he cannot believe the icons of the sport then his opinion doesn't hold much weight.
Anyway back around in circles we go.

 

[LoungeLizard]

I did not dismiss it I said he is denying the obvious. That he has been to 100 GF makes no difference. He will only ever see it from a local Victorian sides point of view.
He does not believe Mick Malthouse, Malcolm Blight, Leigh Mathews who know its an advantage to the Vic clubs, if he cannot believe the icons of the sport then his opinion doesn't hold much weight.
Anyway back around in circles we go.

Did any of them say anything about crowds?

I look at it a different way most do.

There have been 33 AFL Grand finals and 14 different winners, that's a bloody good effort from the AFL if you ask me.

Not many leagues around the world would have that strike rate.

Then when you look at the multable winners it's fairly even between Vics and non-Vics.
So what i'm seeing so far, is it's not the advantage some of you are trying to make out it to be.

Now, let's move the GF, now the argument turns to, "do the non-Vics have the advantage as they have the easier path to the grand final.

Denial you say, watch it happen in front of your eyes.

 

[blue harvest]

This so called neutrals crap is bullshit.
In 2018 I have never seen so many genuine Pies members favs in my life, neutrals don’t wear Pies jumpers. Would easily of been 55k pies genuine fans or members. Now how they got tickets only god knows but somehow they did???

This has already been explained to you in this thread months ago.

Below is a link to the post. About 40-45k was my estimate.

Where I was sitting in AFL Members it was about 50% Pies but from a distance you may have mistakenly believed it was 100% because neutrals don't typically wear royal blue and gold clothes. There was a whole bunch of people in the next section from some sort of semi formal function, guys had black jackets, girls black dresses, didn't see any gold, but none seemed to be Collingwood supporters.

Mega Thread - VICBias - Genuine Discussion

Correct, more premiums were paid than the AFL allocated. Ends up in a ballot. First I've heard of this. So people paid for a guaranteed GF membership but didn't get a GF ticket? Vic clubs limit the number of such memberships sold based on the number of GF tickets to be allocated, and by some...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Did any of them say anything about crowds?

I look at it a different way most do.

There have been 33 AFL Grand finals and 14 different winners, that's a bloody good effort from the AFL if you ask me.

Not many leagues around the world would have that strike rate.

Then when you look at the multable winners it's fairly even between Vics and non-Vics.
So what i'm seeing so far, is it's not the advantage some of you are trying to make out it to be.

Now, let's move the GF, now the argument turns to, "do the non-Vics have the advantage as they have the easier path to the grand final.

Denial you say, watch it happen in front of your eyes.

I agree with that, moving the GF to highest qualifying team doesn’t fix the problem.
Neutral venue can’t really work either as how do you organise that in a week or two.
So we stay with the MCG where the Vics have an advantage.
The AFL can try and make it better by giving the non vic teams double the ticket allocation as the Vic team, make AFL membership only if your nominated team is in GF you get to go.
Really simple stuff to try and even things up a little.
But they don’t.
So we are stuck talking in circles until they do.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

This has already been explained to you in this thread months ago.

Below is a link to the post. About 40-45k was my estimate.

Where I was sitting in AFL Members it was about 50% Pies but from a distance you may have mistakenly believed it was 100% because neutrals don't typically wear royal blue and gold clothes. There was a whole bunch of people in the next section from some sort of semi formal function, guys had black jackets, girls black dresses, didn't see any gold, but none seemed to be Collingwood supporters.

Mega Thread - VICBias - Genuine Discussion

Correct, more premiums were paid than the AFL allocated. Ends up in a ballot. First I've heard of this. So people paid for a guaranteed GF membership but didn't get a GF ticket? Vic clubs limit the number of such memberships sold based on the number of GF tickets to be allocated, and by some...

www.bigfooty.com

I disagreed then and still do. Big advantage to the pies in GF day

 

[sr36]

I did not dismiss it I said he is denying the obvious. That he has been to 100 GF makes no difference. He will only ever see it from a local Victorian sides point of view.
He does not believe Mick Malthouse, Malcolm Blight, Leigh Mathews who know its an advantage to the Vic clubs, if he cannot believe the icons of the sport then his opinion doesn't hold much weight.
Anyway back around in circles we go.

Most of us barrack for the interstate team if they're up agianst a big vic club other than our own - I'm sure as hell not looking at it from the Tiges point of view when they're going for 3 on the trot or the Hawks trying to win another ****ing one.

There's still an advantage for Vic teams in the Grand Final - but the crowd factor is reduced compared with the prelim or home and away games.

 

[blue harvest]

The AFL can try and make it better by giving the non vic teams double the ticket allocation as the Vic team, make AFL membership only if your nominated team is in GF you get to go.
Really simple stuff to try and even things up a little.
But they don’t.
So we are stuck talking in circles until they do.

No point doubling the allocation for NSW or QLD teams. They struggle to sell their current allocation. Giants gave a whole bunch back in 2019, Swans did in 2016 too.

WA fans transport is the problem. Doubt they could actually use double the allocation.

People have been waiting and paying for years to get to full AFL Membership. It would not be 'simple' to remove GF access for them.

 

[doppleganger]

Most of us barrack for the interstate team if they're up agianst a big vic club other than our own - I'm sure as hell not looking at it from the Tiges point of view when they're going for 3 on the trot or the Hawks trying to win another ****ing one.

There's still an advantage for Vic teams in the Grand Final - but the crowd factor is reduced compared with the prelim or home and away games.

Yep.

There is a much smaller advantage in GF, it should be obvious to anybody who considers different elements that contribute to the ground advantage.

Routine - it is not a normal week for the home team
Crowd - it is not 90% support to the home team like in a normal home game
Ground familiarity - not sure how a game in June in front of 30k prepares a player for a GF
Psychological - studies from America actually show that in deciders (game 7) that the pressure to perform in front of home fans can actually flip the mental edge you normally get from defending home turf

It should be obvious that the GF is not the same as a H&A game, but the VICBias sooks dont actually consider what makes up the home ground advantage...instead run with a did you sleep in your bed being the only factor