Society/Culture Victoria Cross winner Ben Roberts-Smith - Allegations of war crimes

[Baltimore Jack]

Of course, Royal Commissioners, all liars.
Corruption never happened. No sexual assault problem in the armed forces. All made up tripe.
They wear a uniform so nobody is ever allowed to question anything that they do.

It can all be attributed to a few bad apples.
LOL.

And of course the evidence shows its not just a few

Abuse within the Military is rife and has been for many years

Take a look at evidence given in the Child Abuse Royal Commission (Military Sittings/Hearings) it will make you cry

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

It's the military who is the real victim here

 

[Schneebly11]

And it quickly turns back into hate-fest on soldiers as people...

No. This is not a “hate fest on soldiers as people”.

What it should be is a hate fest on the culture in the armed forces and wider society that allowed this to happen.

I don’t see it as irrelevant that these crimes occurred after elements of the US “Thank You For Your Service” culture began to seep into ours from the Howard government onwards. When you take a group of people, the military, and tell them they are the greatest heroes in the country and we should all shake their hand, buy them a beer and praise them it’s no surprise that they begin to think they are above the accepted rules and norms of society.

And then amplify it for the special forces, who are continuously reminded of how “elite” they are. What do all the prominent movies about recent conflicts like Lone Survivor, 12 Strong, Zero Dark Thirty, American Sniper, Black Hawk Down, probably throw Act of Valour in too have in common? Special Forces. Like I said they’re being portrayed as James Bond type superheroes who are near on infallible, even to other non-SF parts of the military.

Like sports “stars” in a way, if you continuously shower them with praise it all goes to their heads eventually in a lot of them.

Any attempt to make changes is met with criticism with those who want to keep it “old school”. Some commanders make pissweak attempts at some minor symbolic changes like abolishing 2 Squadron and revoking the MCU and they are overruled by Dutto who is playing to his increasingly nationalist voter base. Dutto thinks the military is getting too “woke”. This is the same military where the supposedly most professional unit was murdering kids with impunity. They need to concentrate on the “application of lethal violence”? Was the Brereton Report not enough in Dutto’s mind? How far does he want the military to go then? Committing My Lai style exterminations of entire towns? Or maybe just switching the cameras off before committing a war crime will suffice.

Maybe the previous poster’s comment about their Facebook friends posting about their not caring about BRS killing kids is an indication that a large part of Australia is more than comfortable with what the SAS did in Afghanistan, in fact they didn’t go far enough, and “anti-woke” types like Dutton know this and will play to it.

Rather than be a stain on SF I feel they want this culture to remain and grow throughout.

 

[ShanDog]

No. This is not a “hate fest on soldiers as people”.

Could have fooled me.

Ex Australian military personnel have double the rate of criminal conviction and imprisonment compared to the Australian public as a whole. I’m not convinced that’s because of what happened to them in the military, rather the personality and attitudes of people who desire to join the military in the first place.

 

[jerry springer]

Any attempt to make changes is met with criticism with those who want to keep it “old school”. Some commanders make pissweak attempts at some minor symbolic changes like abolishing 2 Squadron and revoking the MCU and they are overruled by Dutto who is playing to his increasingly nationalist voter base. Dutto thinks the military is getting too “woke”. This is the same military where the supposedly most professional unit was murdering kids with impunity. They need to concentrate on the “application of lethal violence”? Was the Brereton Report not enough in Dutto’s mind? How far does he want the military to go then? Committing My Lai style exterminations of entire towns? Or maybe just switching the cameras off before committing a war crime will suffice.

its very evident you have a hatred of all things military but Christ dude, you are just getting hysterical now

 

[Toump Ass]

Correct, it is unacceptable to have bad apples in those organisations. That's why they should (and most do) have some pretty rigorous screening processes. But if they were fool-proof, then we'd never see teachers who abuse children, frauds in corporate positions etc. The reality is that you can't do it with 100% accuracy, which is why calling out the bad stuff (including cover-ups and corruption from above) is extremely important. No problem with that at all.

What does "calling out the bad stuff" even mean (let alone achieve)?

As far as the police go, maybe if the "bad apples" were punished appropriately the screening processes wouldn't need to be 100%? There's been some shocking instances of police brutality in Victoria over the last few years; an Aboriginal man spear tackled and called a "black campaigner" on his way to work (the officers didn't have their body cams on, not that it matters because they can edit the footage anyway), a gay bookshop owner having his arm pulled from it's socket (mistaken identity, of course, happens all the time), three police officers found guilty of assaulting a disabled pensioner they were called to perform a welfare check on (fined with no conviction). Funny these things tend to happen to the most vulnerable people in our community.

It's no wonder people think all cops are bastards. I mean who'd want to work for an organisation that upholds laws- with force- that disproportionality affect minority groups?

 

[ShanDog]

What does "calling out the bad stuff" even mean (let alone achieve)?

For most people, it means nothing but some political signalling online. However, I am in the position of someone who can help drive change in my little corner of that very system, and I do so.

As far as the police go, maybe if the "bad apples" were punished appropriately the screening processes wouldn't need to be 100%?

I doubt it. Police have a huge amount of authority over everyone given to them. Of course that job will attract the sort of people that shouldn't ever have that power... As everyone's favourite pop psychologist says, those who want power are usually exactly the sort of people you don't want to give it to. Hence why some of the worst abuses of that power come at the expense of some of the most powerless. It's sad, and I don't know how that gets fixed, because I can't ever see a system that can 100% prevent the imperfect get through it, nor can I ever see anyone being imperfect forever anyway.

It's no wonder people think all cops are bastards. I mean who'd want to work for an organisation that upholds laws- with force- that disproportionality affect minority groups?

Yeah, it's not surprising people think like that, but it's only because people have proven to be simplistic and emotional decision-makers since our time began. People join professions like soldiering and police for altruistic reasons. Good people, who do good things. You and everyone else know that's true, regardless of how vehemently you or they may choose to post otherwise. But it's easier and more politically provocative to say ACAB in the same way that BLM really means Black Lives Matter Too, which states the movement's purpose and meaning much clearer but lacks the racist-angering attention windfall that comes with the shorter, more vague version.

Nothing is black and white. A legal system that mistreats certain groups due to built-in systemic racism doesn't negate the need (and worthwhile-ness) of the rest of the system. It means more change is needed, and that change doesn't come about by mass resignations which end up destabilising the entire thing. The reaction to that would likely produce a system that is far worse. This is why centre-conservatives have social change correct much of the time - small, incremental change is usually the only sustainable process of change. There are exceptions, of course, but the thousands of years of development and social progress we've made has come slowly for the most part.

 

[Number37]

First;

Here's a definition of ad-hom...

marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ad hominem


Second;

... anyone that can be construed as an authority figure or state actor.

The authority figures and state actors in question aren't construed, they are actually authority figures and state actors.



Third;

I'm not sure what you think you read or who you were intending to respond to, but it's obviously not me or my post. Because only someone truly blinded by ideological obsession would respond as if they are arguing with a figment of their imagination instead of the actual words and phrases used.

Tell us...how would you know if anyone hates "on a personal level" anyone else?

.... just as idiotic as the clown-people who hate (on a personal level) anyone that can....

The short answer is you wouldn't know.
What you've actually done is go from somebody said something I don't agree with, to, they must be haters.

Which makes this...

...arguing with a figment of their imagination instead of the actual words and phrases used.

Nothing but projection..

AND

Fourth;

It is also just your garden variety ad-hom. See point 1.

 

[MC Bad Genius]

For what it's worth, my anecdotal evidence is that the only people I know who went into the defence force or the police were deadshits and/or rules men that loved lording power over others.

 

[MC Bad Genius]

But obviously my anecdotal evidence is meaningless. The question we seem to be debating is whether condemnation of the culture of armed forces is an attack personally on the people of the armed forces. I don't actually think it is, but it definitely reflects poorly on the defence force as a whole and requires genuine efforts from all the individuals in the defence force to change that culture.

 

[ShanDog]

First;

Here's a definition of ad-hom...

marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ad hominem


Second;


The authority figures and state actors in question aren't construed, they are actually authority figures and state actors.



Third;








Tell us...how would you know if anyone hates "on a personal level" anyone else?




The short answer is you wouldn't know.
What you've actually done is go from somebody said something I don't agree with, to, they must be haters.

Which makes this...



Nothing but projection..

AND

Fourth;

It is also just your garden variety ad-hom. See point 1.

You went through all that to try and shrug off being called a hater? You know you are, and so do the small handful of other posters who are consistent in their vitriol towards authority figures on a personal level. Don't know why you'd bother with the charade. But, whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

[Over The Post]

Since we're on anecdotal evidence, in my time on inshore patrol craft in the Naval Reserve I had dealings with a couple of hundred sailors and officers, and of those only one was a shit bloke and one was a real campaigner (when he was drunk, and funnily enough he was a cop in real life). The Territorials (Army Reserve) according to my brother-in-law attracted the Rambo types who wouldn't or couldn't make it into the real Army, as well as those seeking trade skills or just a side income.

 

[Number37]

You went through all that to try and shrug off being called a hater? You know you are, and so do the small handful of other posters who are consistent in their vitriol towards authority figures on a personal level. Don't know why you'd bother with the charade. But, whatever helps you sleep at night.

Remember when you claimed people just hated instead of making an argument against the words and phrases used?

Soooooo....I made a point about the actual words and phrases that you used.

Andddddd...you're just projecting again.

Just because you claim a small handful of posters are vitriolic because they hate authority figures based on nothing more than a figment of your imagination, doesn't mean it's true.
It most definitely is not an argument against any negative commentary about authority figures.
But, whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

[ShanDog]

Remember when you claimed people just hated instead of making an argument against the words and phrases used?

Soooooo....I made a point about the actual words and phrases that you used.

Andddddd...you're just projecting again.

Just because you claim a small handful of posters are vitriolic because they hate authority figures based on nothing more than a figment of your imagination, doesn't mean it's true.
It most definitely is not an argument against any negative commentary about authority figures.
But, whatever helps you sleep at night.

I am correct about my claim - I have seen it for almost two decades, spoken to people who have openly say that it's their point of view, and am quite confident I can spot it when there is a repeated pattern of behaviour from posters across a range of similar topics and threads.

I think you either don't really understand what projection is, or you haven't quite realised that the inference you are making with that claim is actually proving my point for me.

Once again, I think there's absolutely nothing to be learned or gained from discussing an issue with you, so I won't bother from here. Have your last word.

 

[JackOutback]

I don't doubt there are good people in the military, others just doing a job, and some shit people. But the constant revelations of war crimes, abuse, hazing etc over too many years means the problem is institutional and systematic, and you can't simply shrug it off as bad apples that should be dealt with individually. The problem is bigger than that.

 

[ShanDog]

I don't doubt there are good people in the military, others just doing a job, and some sh*t people. But the constant revelations of war crimes, abuse, hazing etc over too many years means the problem is institutional and systematic, and you can't simply shrug it off as bad apples that should be dealt with individually. The problem is bigger than that.

Correct, which is why there has been such a big push for cultural change and significant improvement in this area for some time now.

The difference in attitude and awareness about issues like racism, bullying, unacceptable behaviour etc from when I first enlisted in 2003 to now is a gulf. Just like in any large society, there's always going to be some who can't adapt to change, but with time they are being found out and moved on. The nature of generational change makes that organically happen to some degree as it is.

 

[JackOutback]

Correct, which is why there has been such a big push for cultural change and significant improvement in this area for some time now.

The difference in attitude and awareness about issues like racism, bullying, unacceptable behaviour etc from when I first enlisted in 2003 to now is a gulf. Just like in any large society, there's always going to be some who can't adapt to change, but with time they are being found out and moved on. The nature of generational change makes that organically happen to some degree as it is.

I agree, but when people say something is rotten in the military, they are not suggesting that everyone who serves is a shit human being. They are saying the system is rotten and it's leading to too many shit people (any number is too many, really). It feels to me you're upset as what you see as a generalisation of all serving military, but if the language pulls back from 'something is rotten in the military', it allows things to slide: 'It's just BRS and not the SAS responsible for the situation we're in'.

 

[ShanDog]

I agree, but when people say something is rotten in the military, they are not suggesting that everyone who serves is a sh*t human being. They are saying the system is rotten and it's leading to too many sh*t people (any number is too many, really). It feels to me you're upset as what you see as a generalisation of all serving military, but if the language pulls back from 'something is rotten in the military', it allows things to slide: 'It's just BRS and not the SAS responsible for the situation we're in'.

It works the other way too, which is important to note, as there's a lot of blind leading the blind here with very few people have any genuine contextual understanding of the scope of the military regarding leadership, unit sizes, roles etc.

However, I haven't really taken issue with that at all - I was pretty clear that my criticism was of people who use any systemic issues to target the character of soldiers (and police as part of that discussion) as individuals simply for being soldiers (or police). I gave an example of that just before, and there was another when discussing why anyone would want to even join an organisation like police and ideas like ACAB.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

I don't doubt there are good people in the military, others just doing a job, and some sh*t people. But the constant revelations of war crimes, abuse, hazing etc over too many years means the problem is institutional and systematic, and you can't simply shrug it off as bad apples that should be dealt with individually. The problem is bigger than that.

It hasn't changed they are just more adept at covering it up these days, but even so, the rape reports still get out.
But even so, the vicious "pay back" applied to the victims continues unabated

A mate of mine looks like he may get one of his pet passions included in the ToR for the RC. 'Abuse In The Military'

 

[Freo Big Fella]

However, I haven't really taken issue with that at all - I was pretty clear that my criticism was of people who use any systemic issues to target the character of soldiers (and police as part of that discussion) as individuals simply for being soldiers (or police). I gave an example of that just before, and there was another when discussing why anyone would want to even join an organisation like police and ideas like ACAB.

I get where you're coming from there, but I also understand people's cynicism when you see high profile servicemen/women (current and former) already pushing back on Brereton or any attempt at cultural change.

You look at the stuff Jacqui Lambie (to pick one example) has come out with, for instance, and it seems like the only thing the defence community finds more abhorrent than the alleged war crimes is anyone being held accountable for them.

 

[Number37]

It hasn't changed they are just more adept at covering it up these days, but even so, the rape reports still get out.
But even so, the vicious "pay back" applied to the victims continues unabated

A mate of mine looks like he may get one of his pet passions included in the ToR for the RC. 'Abuse In The Military'

They treat it as just a perception problem.
The problem, to them, is how people perceive what service men & women do (good & bad).
Last I checked I never committed any war crimes, I never used a position of authority for my own financial gain, or to the detriment of some poor unfortunate, I have never been involved in a death in custody. So any suggestion that the problem lies with me is totally f'n stupid.

In this bizarro world, commenting about some of the sh*tty things service men & women have done is apparently worse than the sh*tty things service men & women have done....because they're trying to do better...like it is Kindergarten...except they get guns and placed in positions of authority that more often than not have profound impacts on other people.

Look at the military ads.
Your cape and costume is hidden under your civvies, just like all the super heroes. Be a super hero. You know you want to.

5 years of military service later....I'm a f'n super hero, you will respect my authority.
Meanwhile there's truckloads of service men & women with all kinds of mental health issues and nobody gives a sh*t, most definitely not the military.
Both the wanna-be superheroes and the broken with mental health issues get spat out of the same system.
But they're trying.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

Last I checked I never committed any war crimes, I never used a position of authority for my own financial gain, or to the detriment of some poor unfortunate, I have never been involved in a death in custody. So any suggestion that the problem lies with me is totally f'n stupid.

Thank you for your service

 

[MC Bad Genius]

This was a really interesting read about the different impacts that have lead to cultural reckoning in not just our defence forces in Afghanistan, but for a lot of our coalition partners as well. One of the earliest comments from a special forces soldier was about how much worse the US troops were and how the young Australian soldiers idolised their US compatriots.

How the ‘good war’ went bad: elite soldiers from Australia, UK and US face a reckoning

As coalition troops prepare to withdraw from Afghanistan after 20 years, former soldiers, key officers and the public are asking what went wrong with some special forces

www.theguardian.com

 

[jerry springer]

think some on here might enjoy this

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2021/06/03/dan-crenshaw-woke-military/

 

[Over The Post]

I still giggle at Ted Cruz' video showing the US and Russian recruiting videos together.