Society/Culture Victoria Cross winner Ben Roberts-Smith - Allegations of war crimes

[ShanDog]

I'm on my phone here, can someone please give honest cliff notes on what he's accused of and what channel 9 retracted? Cheers.

Also curious on the thoughts of ShanDog

Don't know anything about channel 9 but have read the initial redacted findings from the inquest, and if what was reported in there was accurate (no reason to believe otherwise), BRS was all kinds of toxic as a team member and all kinds of bad as a person/soldier. Should be in jail for quite a while.

 

[ShanDog]

The difference between war hero and murderer is disarmingly small.

Which is why it - and similar jobs like policing - are such a tough gig. They're very easy to criticise from the comfort of a couch, and boy oh boy wowee do the uninformed love to do that.

 

[JackOutback]

Which is why it - and similar jobs like policing - are such a tough gig. They're very easy to criticise from the comfort of a couch, and boy oh boy wowee do the uninformed love to do that.

No doubt they are difficult jobs. But at the same time, the number of occasion in which both have stepped so far over the line only the most blinded could attempt to defend it is far too high.

 

[ShanDog]

No doubt they are difficult jobs. But at the same time, the number of occasion in which both have stepped so far over the line only the most blinded could attempt to defend it is far too high.

Of.course some step over the line, and some of those even do it deliberately and with malice. I've no problem calling them out, and always will.

What's incorrect is most people's assumptions about the scale of the problems (more so with policing) as the contentious and/or "over the line" incidents are just about the only ones that appear on news feeds. There's no story when old mate Constable Allan gives Lisa a ticket for doing 75 in a 60 zone and sends her on her way, and that's 99% of police interactions with the public. It's the same reason that the vast majority of people over estimate how many black Americans have been killed by police by thousands of percent.

There exist a truthful area where there are bad cops/military member and/or badly handles incidents where people do wrong. They are jobs done by humans, and humans can both make mistakes and be inherently bad actors. But the vast majority are not, and should not be tarnished by those who are.

 

[JackOutback]

Of.course some step over the line, and some of those even do it deliberately and with malice. I've no problem calling them out, and always will.

What's incorrect is most people's assumptions about the scale of the problems (more so with policing) as the contentious and/or "over the line" incidents are just about the only ones that appear on news feeds. There's no story when old mate Constable Allan gives Lisa a ticket for doing 75 in a 60 zone and sends her on her way, and that's 99% of police interactions with the public. It's the same reason that the vast majority of people over estimate how many black Americans have been killed by police by thousands of percent.

There exist a truthful area where there are bad cops/military member and/or badly handles incidents where people do wrong. They are jobs done by humans, and humans can both make mistakes and be inherently bad actors. But the vast majority are not, and should not be tarnished by those who are.

As Chris Rock astutely pointed out, there are some jobs where you simply can’t have bad apples. Police and military are two of them because people die. I don’t want to hear ‘most do the right thing’ or ‘they had a bad day’. Every incident needs to be called out loud and clear. Problem is, there are usually too many in the fold seeking to play it down in that manner.

 

[ShanDog]

As Chris Rock astutely pointed out, there are some jobs where you simply can’t have bad apples. Police and military are two of them because people die. I don’t want to hear ‘most do the right thing’ or ‘they had a bad day’. Every incident needs to be called out loud and clear. Problem is, there are usually too many in the fold seeking to play it down in that manner.

Correct, it is unacceptable to have bad apples in those organisations. That's why they should (and most do) have some pretty rigorous screening processes. But if they were fool-proof, then we'd never see teachers who abuse children, frauds in corporate positions etc. The reality is that you can't do it with 100% accuracy, which is why calling out the bad stuff (including cover-ups and corruption from above) is extremely important. No problem with that at all.

I don't think any of that detracts from the message that you shouldn't assume all soldiers or cops are bad (or bastards, as ACAB sloganeers put it), though.

 

[Malifice]

I'm on my phone here, can someone please give honest cliff notes on what he's accused of

Multiple war crimes, including breaches of the Geneva Convention and our own laws of Warfare, bashing his missus, and being a generally shit bloke overall to the nth degree.

Something he has oddly actively made worse since the trial began.

 

[Number37]

As Chris Rock astutely pointed out, there are some jobs where you simply can’t have bad apples. Police and military are two of them because people die. I don’t want to hear ‘most do the right thing’ or ‘they had a bad day’. Every incident needs to be called out loud and clear. Problem is, there are usually too many in the fold seeking to play it down in that manner.

Any indictment that includes criminality towards a cop or soldier automatically leads to a tougher sentence for the offender.

But if you're a cop or soldier you get away with all kinds of bullshit because people love nothing more than to make excuses for cops and soldiers.
The overwhelming majority of shitty stuff that cops and soldiers are caught doing isn't because their jobs are tough.

 

[Number37]

The difference between war hero and murderer is disarmingly small.

The difference is massive.
That sometimes they wear a uniform is the only common feature.
BRS is the perfect example.

 

[Schneebly11]

To make it clear these weren’t mistakes on the battlefield under duress or pressure or because they had been deployed too often.

It was a culture of murder and war crimes that had seeped into their psyche. You can see this from both the Brereton report and 9’s defence in the defamation case, plus other news articles.

When training in Australia pre deployment to Afghanistan in 2012 BRS was instructing junior soldiers to simulate executing captured Afghans, and instructing those soldiers that would be standard procedure in country.

SAS soldiers left base on patrols with AK-47s, Afghan radios and grenades to plant on murder victims. They knew they were going to be committing war crimes before they left the base on patrol.

BRS encouraged and even threatened other soldiers to increase his unit’s “kill count” on the “kill board” they were keeping in competition with other units.

Soldiers who tried to speak up were openly bullied, threatened and mocked to the point they left Special Forces.

 

[Gough]

If only Quentin Bryce had a multi media empire that she could use to maintain her reputation she might be able to stand by this piece of shit.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Drop the campaigner back in Afghanistan. No weapons. Let him fend for himself.

 

[Schneebly11]

The difference is massive.
That sometimes they wear a uniform is the only common feature.
BRS is the perfect example.

Agreed.

When he viewed the 4 Corners video of the “do you want me to drop this c**t” killing Chris Barrie, former chief of the ADF, said that if that happened in the streets of Australia it would be a clear cut case of murder.

Ex Australian military personnel have double the rate of criminal conviction and imprisonment compared to the Australian public as a whole. I’m not convinced that’s because of what happened to them in the military, rather the personality and attitudes of people who desire to join the military in the first place.

 

[Over The Post]

Drop the campaigner back in Afghanistan. No weapons. Let him fend for himself.

If anyone could, he could. Wouldn't be without weapons for very long. Would survive until a sniper got him.

 

[Schneebly11]

If anyone could, he could. Wouldn't be without weapons for very long. Would survive until a sniper got him.

I’d like to see some of these SF and how they go without weapons, team mates, body armour, airstrikes, artillery, satellite intel, helicopter extraction, NVGs.....

Just bare bones soldier vs soldier. Especially in a country where they don’t know the terrain, language, culture.

You know Special Forces may be slightly smarter than your average grunt but over time this myth of folklore has developed with them to where society believes they are all like James Bond level secret agents.

After watching some of the helmet cam footage from Afghanistan where they’re arguing like a bunch of spoiled school kids calling each other “c**ts” arguing who gets to throw a grenade into a bunker I’d beg to differ. I’d also question their intelligence levels considering a lot of them filmed themselves committing war crimes but failed to destroy the footage.

Rather than be seen as intelligent these guys should be on an episode of “World’s Dumbest Criminals”.

 

[ShanDog]

And it quickly turns back into hate-fest on soldiers as people...

 

[Ned_Flanders]

And it quickly turns back into hate-fest on soldiers as people...

Unfortunately it's a natural consequence of turning the SAS into God's on earth. Once we find out they are not, it's not just the crimes committed but the betrayal of the ideal, and this stains them all.

As someone who grew up in the 80s where the Vietnam stain was still a thing, this will take years to forgive.

 

[ShanDog]

Unfortunately it's a natural consequence of turning the SAS into God's on earth. Once we find out they are not, it's not just the crimes committed but the betrayal of the ideal, and this stains them all.

As someone who grew up in the 80s where the Vietnam stain was still a thing, this will take years to forgive.

It's an undeserved prejudice and says more about the people who have it than anything else. Don't care for the excuses as to why it's there. It is, and should be called out. I have thoughts about why it exists in those people, but that's a different topic.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

It's an undeserved prejudice and says more about the people who have it than anything else. Don't care for the excuses as to why it's there. It is, and should be called out. I have thoughts about why it exists in those people, but that's a different topic.

The people who made them God's will be the ones who tear them down the most.

We have gone from the sas being labelled as the most powerful soldiers in the world (pound for pound) to guilty of war crimes (which were condoned and covered up)

But don't worry, some will still support. My Facebook has multiple mates posting they don't care how many kids the SAS killed, they are still heroes

 

[ShanDog]

The people who made them God's will be the ones who tear them down the most.

We have gone from the sas being labelled as the most powerful soldiers in the world (pound for pound) to guilty of war crimes (which were condoned and covered up)

But don't worry, some will still support. My Facebook has multiple mates posting they don't care how many kids the SAS killed, they are still heroes

Those involved deserve every bit of criticism they get. I've no issue with that. It's not what I was talking about at all. The mouth-breathing flag-wavers who won't acknowledge the wrongdoing are just as idiotic as the clown-people who hate (on a personal level) anyone that can be construed as an authority figure or state actor.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Those involved deserve every bit of criticism they get. I've no issue with that. It's not what I was talking about at all. The mouth-breathing flag-wavers who won't acknowledge the wrongdoing are just as idiotic as the clown-people who hate (on a personal level) anyone that can be construed as an authority figure or state actor.

The issue is for a lot of people they will be asking is murder is okay for the best of the best in Australia, doesn't that set the standard the rest follow.

This isn't about fair or unfair, it's not fair. The taint by association will last for years however.

I know some people who refused to donate on Anzac Day for the first time, and won't until these guys are punished and their medals removed

 

[Number37]

Those involved deserve every bit of criticism they get. I've no issue with that. It's not what I was talking about at all. The mouth-breathing flag-wavers who won't acknowledge the wrongdoing are just as idiotic as the clown-people who hate (on a personal level) anyone that can be construed as an authority figure or state actor.

That's the usual tripe that is rolled out, each time,every time. It is nothing more than a pathetic excuse. It doesn't do the people who do the right thing any favours.

How is it that people like BRS think they can get away with it?
How is it that they do get away with it?
It usually takes an extraordinary amount of investigative journalism just to bring it to light.

How many reports of dickheads in the military or the police force before we stop hearing excuses and see real action, real change?
How many Royal Commissions do we need to have to that say the culture, from top to bottom, stinks?

How many RC's have found widespread police corruption? Nearly every state has had a RC or equivalent that exposed widespread police corruption. Few bad apples, my arse.
Ditto the armed forces.

The military school that trains future officers had a massive sexual assault problem exposed.
That tells you that the culture that allows people like BRS to get away with sh*t is embraced by recruits, right from the beginning.
That same culture pervades the police force, only need to look as far as what happens in police academies.

If they weren't the military or the police force they wouldn't be allowed to get away with it.

 

[Turnover]

That's the usual tripe that is rolled out, each time,every time. It is nothing more than a pathetic excuse. It doesn't do the people who do the right thing any favours.

How is it that people like BRS think they can get away with it?
How is it that they do get away with it?
It usually takes an extraordinary amount of investigative journalism just to bring it to light.

How many reports of dickheads in the military or the police force before we stop hearing excuses and see real action, real change?
How many Royal Commissions do we need to have to that say the culture, from top to bottom, stinks?

How many RC's have found widespread police corruption? Nearly every state has had a RC or equivalent that exposed widespread police corruption. Few bad apples, my arse.
Ditto the armed forces.

The military school that trains future officers had a massive sexual assault problem exposed.
That tells you that the culture that allows people like BRS to get away with sh*t is embraced by recruits, right from the beginning.
That same culture pervades the police force, only need to look as far as what happens in police academies.

If they weren't the military or the police force they wouldn't be allowed to get away with it.

Speaking of tripe

 

[Number37]

Speaking of tripe

Of course, Royal Commissioners, all liars.
Corruption never happened. No sexual assault problem in the armed forces. All made up tripe.
They wear a uniform so nobody is ever allowed to question anything that they do.

It can all be attributed to a few bad apples.
LOL.

 

[ShanDog]

That's the usual tripe that is rolled out, each time,every time. It is nothing more than a pathetic excuse. It doesn't do the people who do the right thing any favours.

How is it that people like BRS think they can get away with it?
How is it that they do get away with it?
It usually takes an extraordinary amount of investigative journalism just to bring it to light.

How many reports of dickheads in the military or the police force before we stop hearing excuses and see real action, real change?
How many Royal Commissions do we need to have to that say the culture, from top to bottom, stinks?

How many RC's have found widespread police corruption? Nearly every state has had a RC or equivalent that exposed widespread police corruption. Few bad apples, my arse.
Ditto the armed forces.

The military school that trains future officers had a massive sexual assault problem exposed.
That tells you that the culture that allows people like BRS to get away with sh*t is embraced by recruits, right from the beginning.
That same culture pervades the police force, only need to look as far as what happens in police academies.

If they weren't the military or the police force they wouldn't be allowed to get away with it.

I'm not sure what you think you read or who you were intending to respond to, but it's obviously not me or my post. Because only someone truly blinded by ideological obsession would respond as if they are arguing with a figment of their imagination instead of the actual words and phrases used.