Victorian Covid Outbreak 2021

[FlowersByIrene]

So are people here. they have been for months. That's the problem!

Regarding case numbers coming down, this has happened everywhere overseas as Vax numbers increase too.

'Vax' numbers haha right.. right.. couldn't be anything to do with the fact that the virus doesn't easily transmit while out in public and that restrictions on outdoor gatherings are non-sensical. sure sure.

 

[Rusty Brookes]

Funny that NSW figures are coming down, while vaccination rates go up. A figure of around 50% of adults being double dosed starts to have an effect on case numbers.

BTW - sounds like Grand Final parties were the one of the drivers of the numbers.

 

[Kwality]

But that’s just it, Minister’s and Cabinet aren’t part of the management structure of a Department. That constitutes the Secretary and Deputy Secretaries. A Minister is answerable to the electorate in respect of policies but it is a Department who implements those policies.

Thanks for your legal advice & I beg to differ.
The Premier is the top of the food chain & in this case WorkSafe have 18 months documentation of its investigation available to the DPP.
IF there is some line that protects the decision makers from legal responsibility, the legislation is as flawed as the legislation it replaced.

There is still the issue of the request for the prosecution of individuals that remain unanswered by WorkSafe in contravention of its Act. Whether it is left to the DPP is a worrying failure by WorkSafe & its officers.

 

[Simche]

Thanks for your legal advice & I beg to differ.
The Premier is the top of the food chain & in this case WorkSafe have 18 months documentation of its investigation available to the DPP.
IF there is some line that protects the decision makers from legal responsibility, the legislation is as flawed as the legislation it replaced.

There is still the issue of the request for the prosecution of individuals that remain unanswered by WorkSafe in contravention of its Act. Whether it is left to the DPP is a worrying failure by WorkSafe & its officers.

The Westminster system of government protects Ministers from legal responsibility in these circumstances. The DPP have charged the Department of Health, formerly DHHS, with contraventions. The premier isn’t an employee of that department or part of its structure and neither is the cabinet, and accordingly they won’t be personally found accountable for the failures.

I am also not sure what you are getting at re the DPP prompting WorkSafe to pursue this in violation of their own legislation? WorkSafe conducted a 15 month investigation and handed the brief to the DPP to assess the viability of prosecuting the charges. The DPP clearly thought the brief was worth acting on. There’s nothing there out of the ordinary.

 

[interestedoz1]

Surely letting it back in is the issue here?

That is THE issue. We eradicated it. It didn't exist in this country, and life, aside from international travel, was normal.

And we let it in. We f’ed up quarantine. More than once.

I still really can't believe we blew it.

This for me has become the real issue with the VIC gov now. There comes a point in my view, where the Gov has to take responsibility - particularly after what Victorians went through last year - to keep the virus out. I know it's hard. I get that. But it has been done on other states - including QLD which has up until now dodged and ducked and weaved and blocked to keep the thing out and has done a heroic job so far.

Where were the hard NSW border lockdowns in VIC when the Bondi situation was evolving months ago*? After the SA quarantine issue caused lockdown 4, why weren't titanium steel border restrictions put in permanently place in VIC to protect Victorians from another 2020 now that Delta had arrived? The way the virus has come back into VIC simply should not have occurred. The ONE state that simply could not have another major lockdown was VIC - yet here we are.

*I suspect - but don't know for sure - that there was a belief that WA style measures weren't needed because a delta outbreak could be stamped out with a short, sharp lockdown.

 

[Bazzar]

The Westminster system of government protects Ministers from legal responsibility in these circumstances. The DPP have charged the Department of Health, formerly DHHS, with contraventions. The premier isn’t an employee of that department or part of its structure and neither is the cabinet, and accordingly they won’t be personally found accountable for the failures.

I am also not sure what you are getting at re the DPP prompting WorkSafe to pursue this in violation of their own legislation? WorkSafe conducted a 15 month investigation and handed the brief to the DPP to assess the viability of prosecuting the charges. The DPP clearly thought the brief was worth acting on. There’s nothing there out of the ordinary.

After 15 months of investigation Worksafe didn't act, and certainly didn't voluntarily hand it to the DPP.
WorkSafe was referred to the DPP by Self Employed Australia in July for investigation.

 

[Kwality]

The Westminster system of government protects Ministers from legal responsibility in these circumstances. The DPP have charged the Department of Health, formerly DHHS, with contraventions. The premier isn’t an employee of that department or part of its structure and neither is the cabinet, and accordingly they won’t be personally found accountable for the failures.

I am also not sure what you are getting at re the DPP prompting WorkSafe to pursue this in violation of their own legislation? WorkSafe conducted a 15 month investigation and handed the brief to the DPP to assess the viability of prosecuting the charges. The DPP clearly thought the brief was worth acting on. There’s nothing there out of the ordinary.

That the DPP became involved as it seemed WorkSafe was running down the clock limiting prosecution.

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

'August 10, 2021
Victorian Director of Public Prosecutions Kerri Judd on Monday received a 20,000-word, comprehensive report arguing she should begin prosecutions against four current or former cabinet ministers and 16 current and past public servants for their role in the 2020 pandemic hotel quarantine disaster.
But the document did not come from WorkSafe Victoria but rather a team of Australia’s top occupational health and safety lawyers brought together and co-ordinated by Ken Phillips, chief executive of Self Employed Australia.
If WorkSafe ever makes a report to DPP Kerri Judd then she, alongside Victoria’s Solicitor-General Rowena Orr, will be able to compare the WorksSafe “investigative material” with that prepared by the OHS experts and Phillips.
Judd and Orr are among Australia’s finest silks. If Judd was to make recommendations I am supremely confident in the integrity of Judd and Orr to put aside the undoubtedly enormous political implications involved and uphold the standards and traditions of Australian law.'

The issue of prosecution of the individuals involved remains outstanding, & as I understand it, WorkSafe must act within 90 days of the request by Self Employed Australia, i.e November. Note the Premier is not one of those mentioned for prosecution.

Edit:https://selfemployedaustralia.com.au/notabovethelaw/
This link includes a timeline of its vigilance on this issue.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

This for me has become the real issue with the VIC gov now. There comes a point in my view, where the Gov has to take responsibility - particularly after what Victorians went through last year - to keep the virus out. I know it's hard. I get that. But it has been done on other states - including QLD which has up until now dodged and ducked and weaved and blocked to keep the thing out and has done a heroic job so far.

Where were the hard NSW border lockdowns in VIC when the Bondi situation was evolving months ago*? After the SA quarantine issue caused lockdown 4, why weren't titanium steel border restrictions put in permanently place in VIC to protect Victorians from another 2020 now that Delta had arrived? The way the virus has come back into VIC simply should not have occurred. The ONE state that simply could not have another major lockdown was VIC - yet here we are.

*I suspect - but don't know for sure - that there was a belief that WA style measures weren't needed because a delta outbreak could be stamped out with a short, sharp lockdown.

You're preaching to the choir man!

 

[Bazzar]

That the DPP became involved as it seemed WorkSafe was running down the clock limiting prosecution.

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

'August 10, 2021
Victorian Director of Public Prosecutions Kerri Judd on Monday received a 20,000-word, comprehensive report arguing she should begin prosecutions against four current or former cabinet ministers and 16 current and past public servants for their role in the 2020 pandemic hotel quarantine disaster.
But the document did not come from WorkSafe Victoria but rather a team of Australia’s top occupational health and safety lawyers brought together and co-ordinated by Ken Phillips, chief executive of Self Employed Australia.
If WorkSafe ever makes a report to DPP Kerri Judd then she, alongside Victoria’s Solicitor-General Rowena Orr, will be able to compare the WorksSafe “investigative material” with that prepared by the OHS experts and Phillips.
Judd and Orr are among Australia’s finest silks. If Judd was to make recommendations I am supremely confident in the integrity of Judd and Orr to put aside the undoubtedly enormous political implications involved and uphold the standards and traditions of Australian law.'

The issue of prosecution of the individuals involved remains outstanding, & as I understand it, WorkSafe must act within 90 days of the request by Self Employed Australia, i.e November. Note the Premier is not one of those mentioned for prosecution.

Edit:https://selfemployedaustralia.com.au/notabovethelaw/
This link includes a timeline of its vigilance on this issue.

 

[Kwality]

After 15 months of investigation Worksafe didn't act, and certainly didn't voluntarily hand it to the DPP.
WorkSafe was referred to the DPP by Self Employed Australia in July for investigation.

At some point it will be asked why the ABC did not regard the issue as newsworthy, but thats an issue for another thread.

 

[Visions]

His social media minions have started work blaming everyone else

Including Big Footy…

Much easier to do this when your state is being prioritised supply of mRNA vaccines. As things are Victoria does not have sufficient supply of mRNA vaccines to reduce the dosing interval to 3 weeks and I read today that NSW have sufficient supply to start offering Moderna and Pfizer to over 60s......

Bollocks. What you wrote is word for word straight from the Andrews playbook from the last week.

Dan and his team knew a week ago that there was enough Pfizer supply coming in October to be able to bring second Pfizer appointments forward as has just been announced today.

However as we know and as Greg Hunt announced back then, Dan needed to divert attention away from the huge West Gate Bridge and Shrine protests that were shining him in a bad light by claiming a vaccine shortage.

 

[HTT]

So 1400 cases a day, after being IN LOCKDOWN for 3 months - doesn't make 10000 cases per day WITHOUT LOCKDOWN seem pretty reasonable to you??

If cases come down: see we didn’t need to lockdown
If cases go up: see lockdown doesn’t work

 

[Simche]

That the DPP became involved as it seemed WorkSafe was running down the clock limiting prosecution.

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

'August 10, 2021
Victorian Director of Public Prosecutions Kerri Judd on Monday received a 20,000-word, comprehensive report arguing she should begin prosecutions against four current or former cabinet ministers and 16 current and past public servants for their role in the 2020 pandemic hotel quarantine disaster.
But the document did not come from WorkSafe Victoria but rather a team of Australia’s top occupational health and safety lawyers brought together and co-ordinated by Ken Phillips, chief executive of Self Employed Australia.
If WorkSafe ever makes a report to DPP Kerri Judd then she, alongside Victoria’s Solicitor-General Rowena Orr, will be able to compare the WorksSafe “investigative material” with that prepared by the OHS experts and Phillips.
Judd and Orr are among Australia’s finest silks. If Judd was to make recommendations I am supremely confident in the integrity of Judd and Orr to put aside the undoubtedly enormous political implications involved and uphold the standards and traditions of Australian law.'

The issue of prosecution of the individuals involved remains outstanding, & as I understand it, WorkSafe must act within 90 days of the request by Self Employed Australia, i.e November. Note the Premier is not one of those mentioned for prosecution.

Edit:https://selfemployedaustralia.com.au/notabovethelaw/
This link includes a timeline of its vigilance on this issue.

Look, I'm not going to engage with the Self Employed stuff. It's an interest group and it's media posturing just isn't consistent with the way prosecutions are run by regulators in any state, let alone how OH&S legislation operates here. Cabinet ministers are not responsible for the repercussions of implementation of policy decisions.

If a bridge being built collapses on a worker, it's not the Minister's responsibility to ensure a safe work place is in place. It's the employee's employer. That's where the liability is and frankly to bring a personal prosecution when the nexus between the crisis cabinet and the provision of the PPE equipment and direction to private security is so great that it would be almost impossible to substantiate wrongdoing.

Including Big Footy…



Bollocks. What you wrote is word for word straight from the Andrews playbook from the last week.

Dan and his team knew a week ago that there was enough Pfizer supply coming in October to be able to bring second Pfizer appointments forward as has just been announced today.

However as we know and as Greg Hunt announced back then, Dan needed to divert attention away from the huge West Gate Bridge and Shrine protests that were shining him in a bad light by claiming a vaccine shortage.

Another person with ideological blinkers on. Look, you can attack me for many things but I am no Andrews fan as previously stated. I am however a parochial Victorian and any which way you want to cut it Victoria has received different treatment to NSW through access, supply, accreditation and financial support.

Supply has been announced today. Not last week. Today. So I'm struggling to see why Andrews wouldn't have announced it last week if he knew, particularly as you highlight he needed a media good news story last week. Also got any facts to back up your assertion that 'Andrews knew last week'? Perhaps you are privy to Cabinet briefings? No. Didn't think so.

 

[Kwality]

Look, I'm not going to engage with the Self Employed stuff. It's an interest group and it's media posturing just isn't consistent with the way prosecutions are run by regulators in any state, let alone how OH&S legislation operates here. Cabinet ministers are not responsible for the repercussions of implementation of policy decisions.

If a bridge being built collapses on a worker, it's not the Minister's responsibility to ensure a safe work place is in place. It's the employee's employer. That's where the liability is and frankly to bring a personal prosecution when the nexus between the crisis cabinet and the provision of the PPE equipment and direction to private security is so great that it would be almost impossible to substantiate wrongdoing.

You need to take your blinkers off. It is not simply media posturing & no one was happy with the result of the Coate Inquiry, with 'I cant recall' gaining recognition in every day conversation.
The aim of the legislation was to ensure the builder of your bridge was culpable, not the workers doing the job.
The Government of Victoria funds the public service, as BHP does its subsidiaries.

Regardless of our personal views, I'd suggest it will have exercised the mind of the Solicitor -General.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

If cases come down: see we didn’t need to lockdown
If cases go up: see lockdown doesn’t work

The undisputable fact is - lockdowns are authoritarian and should never have been implemented. Regardless of the case numbers i'll never support a lockdown. People are free to self-lockdown themselves if they're worried.

 

[Simche]

You need to take your blinkers off. It is not simply media posturing & no one was happy with the result of the Coate Inquiry, with 'I cant recall' gaining recognition in every day conversation.
The aim of the legislation was to ensure the builder of your bridge was culpable, not the workers doing the job.
The Government of Victoria funds the public service, as BHP does its subsidiaries.

Regardless of our personal views, I'd suggest it will have exercised the mind of the Solicitor -General.

What blinkers? The organisation you’ve posted to has two prominent liberal party members as directors. Think you need to have a look into it.

I’m all for the proper implementation of the law as drafted. But insinuating the Premier and broader cabinet fitted out security guards without proper PPE is a bit rich for mine.

The other point I’d make is how are you going to prosecute Andrews and other cabinet members when cabinet deliberation and documents are privileged in almost all court proceedings? There’s just no realistic prospect of prosecution.

 

[HTT]

The undisputable fact is - lockdowns are authoritarian and should never have been implemented. Regardless of the case numbers i'll never support a lockdown. People are free to self-lockdown themselves if they're worried.

What do you think would happen if we didn’t lockdown?

 

[Kwality]

What blinkers? The organisation you’ve posted to has two prominent liberal party members as directors. Think you need to have a look into it.

I’m all for the proper implementation of the law as drafted. But insinuating the Premier and broader cabinet fitted out security guards without proper PPE is a bit rich for mine.

The other point I’d make is how are you going to prosecute Andrews and other cabinet members when cabinet deliberation and documents are privileged in almost all court proceedings? There’s just no realistic prospect of prosecution.

The point is this mob exercised its right under the legislation resulting in action in the Magistrates Court. It appears not to have been used before.

Its fair enough for you to believe Ministers arent culpable but thats the test for the legislation.
Like you I cant see the Premier being held culpable, but thats based on lifes experience, not the law.

As for Cabinet, I agree its off limits.

How strong is the legislation is the question ? You may be correct that there is no prospect of prosecution. It would surely see yet another rewrite of the legislation.
What will the Magistrates Court do on October 22?

 

[Kangapirate]

I have numerous colleagues in Sydney and none are living a 'lockdown' life, government restrictions now allow vaccinated people t gather in parks etc and this isn't being policed anywhere near as heavily as in Victorian meaning that everyone, vaccinated or not, is gather in parks. People are also socialising at beaches, having BBQ's, meeting colleagues for coffee at takeaway places. They are socialising constantly and yet cases are going DOWN.

lol everyone is doing that here.

 

[Bazzar]

What blinkers? The organisation you’ve posted to has two prominent liberal party members as directors. Think you need to have a look into it.

I’m all for the proper implementation of the law as drafted. But insinuating the Premier and broader cabinet fitted out security guards without proper PPE is a bit rich for mine.

The other point I’d make is how are you going to prosecute Andrews and other cabinet members when cabinet deliberation and documents are privileged in almost all court proceedings? There’s just no realistic prospect of prosecution.

You need to look into the WorkSafe CEO Colin Radford who's held senior roles in Ministerial offices, advising three Victorian Premiers and as Chief of Staff to a Cabinet Minister, ALL Labor, and the Worksafe Chairman, John Merrit is a former union official married to a former Labor cabinet minister Maxine Morand.

 

[theyellowsash]

Its a surprise to those who follow the ABC :

ABC Discover

search-beta.abc.net.au

Why did the ABC ignore the investigations:
'Although it’s a matter for the courts, on the surface, by not sending its investigative materials to Judd, WorkSafe appears to be in clear breach of its own act.

It also raises the question of whether Kerri Judd, as Victoria’s Director of Public Prosecutions, is also in danger of being in breach of the act by not giving the answers she is required to do under the act.

And suddenly, given the grave issues that are raised, it will mean that Victoria’s Solicitor-General must also be involved.'

The quote above from News & similar comments in the Nine papers 6 weeks back. Was it not worthy of publication ?

The problem here is the precedent it sets. Failure to hold the senior decision makers personally liable will be the precedent that undoes the good work of Steve Bracks on the current legislation.

You hold senior decision makers accountable for decisions on policy. Andrews et al will and should not be held responsible because some operational beurocrat 10 levels of management below them didn't update a manual. Which looks like the kinda stuff reported to be in the worksafe charges.

 

[Kwality]

You hold senior decision makers accountable for decisions on policy. Andrews et al will and should not be held responsible because some operational beurocrat 10 levels of management below them didn't update a manual. Which looks like the kinda stuff reported to be in the worksafe charges.

IF the charges are frivolous surely the investigation would identify that. In the circumstances the WorkSafe investigators should have been conservative on issues, & striking out charges would support their caution.

 

[Visions]

Supply has been announced today. Not last week. Today. So I'm struggling to see why Andrews wouldn't have announced it last week if he knew, particularly as you highlight he needed a media good news story last week. Also got any facts to back up your assertion that 'Andrews knew last week'? Perhaps you are privy to Cabinet briefings? No. Didn't think so.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www...ws-story/6a8ee9d1b9a1ef320d4bb415ead275f6?amp

Vaccine dose numbers were provided to Foley last Thursday, and Pfizer confirmed last Friday the October supply.

If Foley doesn’t talk to Dan, then that’s a breakdown in communication right there.

However right on queue, Andrews announcing it today a week late and having to divert attention away from the Health Department saga as well as the skyrocking positive case numbers went to his status quo and took pot shots at the Feds again.

 

[Simche]

You need to look into the WorkSafe CEO Colin Radford who's held senior roles in Ministerial offices, advising three Victorian Premiers and as Chief of Staff to a Cabinet Minister, ALL Labor, and the Worksafe Chairman, John Merrit is a former union official married to a former Labor cabinet minister Maxine Morand.

Half the public service have worked in pollies offices on both sides. It’s a bit different when you’re appointed to undertake a role in a statutory body like WorkSafe as opposed to setting up and getting on a board that, from the website appears to be demanding WorkSafe undertake actions well beyond its legislative mandate. It is as if they don’t actually understand the role of an OHS regulator.

 

[Bazzar]

Half the public service have worked in pollies offices on both sides. It’s a bit different when you’re appointed to undertake a role in a statutory body like WorkSafe as opposed to setting up and getting on a board that, from the website appears to be demanding WorkSafe undertake actions well beyond its legislative mandate. It is as if they don’t actually understand the role of an OHS regulator.

So its ok for worksafe whos ceo and chairman ONLY worked for labour but not self employed Australia? Fair enough