Visy Poach: chickens coming home

[MaddAdam]

I'll be very generous and say that's a glib and not bizzare analysis / response to the question.

I think your saying Eddie had Machiavellian powers of manipulation which made Collingwood a powerhouse. In which case we'll soon expect Brayshaw to turn North into a behemoth of its own.

I'm saying Eddie recognised that he needed to marry the latent supporter base to tools with which to maximise revenue.

Having a load of people willing to turn up to games etc doesn't guarantee financial success: as I said, you were financially moribund for much the 80s and 90s.

Eddie saw that by getting as much exposure as possible he could effectively "monetise" the latent support base into increased sponsorships etc.

This is why he went and lobbied the AFL and proposed a deal to them: give us more exposure and we'll push up your revenues overall and thus by definition your own personal pay packets, the KPIs being linked to these.

I'm not making this up and I'm not having a go at Coillingwood. Eddie did very well for his club.

But it cannot be denied there's been a massive distortion of the comp as a result of those and associated policies.

Tell me, if you disagree with my analysis, did Collingwood suddenly develop an interest in playing as many Friday nights as possible all of a sudden in the late 90s and early 00s?

 

[the harry]

This is like an argument between Communists about whether Mao or Stalin was better/worse.

Stalin was better.

 

[Old Spice]

I'm sure Old Spice indulges such debate often.

Yes, all I talk about is football analogies between chairman Mao and Stalin. Odd.

 

[Old Spice]

I'm saying Eddie recognised that he needed to marry the latent supporter base to tools with which to maximise revenue.

Having a load of people willing to turn up to games etc doesn't guarantee financial success: as I said, you were financially moribund for much the 80s and 90s.

Eddie saw that by getting as much exposure as possible he could effectively "monetise" the latent support base into increased sponsorships etc.

This is why he went and lobbied the AFL and proposed a deal to them: give us more exposure and we'll push up your revenues overall and thus by definition your own personal pay packets, the KPIs being linked to these.

I'm not making this up and I'm not having a go at Coillingwood. Eddie did very well for his club.

But it cannot be denied there's been a massive distortion of the comp as a result of those and associated policies.

Tell me, if you disagree with my analysis, did Collingwood suddenly develop an interest in playing as many Friday nights as possible all of a sudden in the late 90s and early 00s?

You did alright for a while there, but this is JUST BIZZARE. I suspect you're young, well I'd hope so.

The idea that Eddie was a media mogul when he took over and had some strange stranglehold over the media and football ficturing is just so far off the beam it isn't funny. I've got to split, but I'm sure others will word you up.

Ciao.

 

[Tas]

One has to wonder at how big a brown paper bag did Pratt send Wood's way to get the green light for the Judd deal and if such deals like it are not acceptable has Carlton been told they will have to modify their TPP to fit Judd's salary in legally.

 

[Demonheart]

Judd's deal is an absolute disgrace, or rather it's a disgrace that other clubs can't do the same thing. It's pretty clear that the AFL are basically corrupt, they constantly change the rules to achieve their desired result. As previously mentioned the Judd deal was pay back for the crippling penalties given to Carlton, just don't blame Carlton for it.

Other examples of the AFL changing the rules to get their desired result was Sydney and Brisbane. The AFL have been manipulating the results for years, it's a fact of life, it's not going to stop me from enjoying the game though.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

I'm in the unenviable position in this thread of thinking that both Carlton and Collingwood receive undue advantage from the mechanisms of the AFL.

 

[Blues_Man]

The very extraordinary decision by Ken Wood to give the tick-off to Carlton's Visy deal with Judd, worth $200 thousand a season, may be coming home to roost very soon.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...-doom-for-demons/story-e6frf9jf-1226094204738

While Wood tightened the rules surrounding 3rd party agreements with AFL support last year - knocking back Geelong's bid to retain Ablett through a deal with clothing giant Cotton-On and any effort by Melbourne to retain the services of Scully - Judd's deal was upheld on the very flaccid basis that it had already been signed off previously.

If the AFL were not in a position to negate an already existing contract, surely they would have been able to even up the ledger on the credit side by either allowing similar contracts for other clubs for the duration of Judd's deal, or have been in a position to lift ASA funds for other clubs during that period.

The underlying rationale for this decision is surely to give Carlton, as a powerhouse and fundamental team, a leg-up. I wouldn't want to see my nemesis die, but really, this goes beyond a leg-up to almost unadalterated pump-priming of a club which had mishanlded its finances and been stung for salary cap breaches. Surely the reward for dodgy financial dealings is not formalised cap breaches?

As a Collingwood fan whose club went cap in hand to the AFL in the late 90's for some respite with a $1.7 million debt, and was offered 100k for selling a game in Sydney (a deal which we told them to stick up their dates), the idea that Carlton should be given such a financial gift is outrageous.

I'd have been okay with the AFL offering to assist Carlton to pay down their debts, as I would with any club, because I'm a sentimentalist. But giving them a filip of 200k in the TPP/ASA situation p.a. is beyond the pale.

While Carlton were not a threat to the flag, it didn't seem to ruffle too many feathers. But the effective excising of Judd's Visy income from the realm of the Salary Cap and Additional Services Agreement, means that they have an unfair advantage in seeking to lure other players.

That the Pies are having to parley with Carlton for Dawes services is a direct result of this shabby agreement. If the Pies manage to hold Dawes, that is by no means the end of the matter. I'd expect carlton to make a serious play for players likle Goddard or others when Free Agency comes into play at the end of next year.

What is the care factor on this issue?

Yes i'm with you ..poor old Collingwood has been given a raw deal by the AFL once again ..every year the AFL show their hatred and bias toward Collingwood...something needs to be done about it .

Just a question ..is Judd the only player with a 3rd party agreement ??

 

[slamdunka]

The AFL is more like the WWE than a competitive sporting competition.

 

[tonk]

I'm saying Eddie recognised that he needed to marry the latent supporter base to tools with which to maximise revenue.

Having a load of people willing to turn up to games etc doesn't guarantee financial success: as I said, you were financially moribund for much the 80s and 90s.

Eddie saw that by getting as much exposure as possible he could effectively "monetise" the latent support base into increased sponsorships etc.

This is why he went and lobbied the AFL and proposed a deal to them: give us more exposure and we'll push up your revenues overall and thus by definition your own personal pay packets, the KPIs being linked to these.

I'm not making this up and I'm not having a go at Coillingwood. Eddie did very well for his club.

But it cannot be denied there's been a massive distortion of the comp as a result of those and associated policies.

Tell me, if you disagree with my analysis, did Collingwood suddenly develop an interest in playing as many Friday nights as possible all of a sudden in the late 90s and early 00s?

The silence is deafening.

 

[s_cranberry]

Hmmmm. After eschewing Friday nights after playing the first one Collingwood spend the late 80s and early to mid 90s in moribund financial position.

McGuire - a TV man - comes in, lobbies the AFL to "maximise" the fixture and HEY PRESTO! Collingwood are rolling in bucks.

Collingwood have a huge fan fan base due to their success of years gone by... Which is why they are wealthy... The reason north and the dogs are poor is because they never had successful periods decades ago to create that type of fan base.

The difference between north and the pies is not scheduling

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

The difference between north and the pies is not scheduling

That's right, it's geogrpahic, not just success in the early 1900's.

 

[Big Kahuna Boot]

As a West Coast fan who was bitterly disappointed to say the least when Judd left, the whole Visy thing wreaked of sham from the start.
The sheer double standards involves boggles the mind and further reinforces the fact that the AFL isn't one for equal standards.

..seriously..?.. ..3rd party deals are/were common in the AFL, have been for yrs.. ..Juddy was gettin' one over in the west before us.. ..also, 3rd party deals aren't for the blues alone, and have ONLY been now "tightened up" in the face of geelong trying to retain Gazza [GCS] and melbourne trying to retain Scully [GWS].. ..don't be surprised when they're reviewed [conveniently after expansion period] and allowed once more..

 

[Ron The Bear]

The AFL is more like the WWE than a competitive sporting competition.

This. It just shows that the AFL is making it up as it goes along. I'm confident that if Collingwood or another cash cow somehow found the arse out of its pants, the AFL would look the other way while special deals were concocted to enable it to obtain/keep key players.

 

[MaddAdam]

You did alright for a while there, but this is JUST BIZZARE. I suspect you're young, well I'd hope so.

The idea that Eddie was a media mogul when he took over and had some strange stranglehold over the media and football ficturing is just so far off the beam it isn't funny. I've got to split, but I'm sure others will word you up.

Ciao.

So you're saying a club President wouldn't approach the the AFL with a plan to help his club.

Mate, that is what every club President does.

Please answer my question: why did Collingwood develop such an interest in Friday nights - when Eddie took over - after ignoring them for so long?

 

[Zahki]

So you're saying a club President wouldn't approach the the AFL with a plan to help his club.

Mate, that is what every club President does.

Please answer my question: why did Collingwood develop such an interest in Friday nights - when Eddie took over - after ignoring them for so long?

I'd answer but how is this even relevant to the topic of the thread?

 

[MaddAdam]

Collingwood have a huge fan fan base due to their success of years gone by... Which is why they are wealthy... The reason north and the dogs are poor is because they never had successful periods decades ago to create that type of fan base.

The difference between north and the pies is not scheduling

Really? How many Collingwood fans were there for the flags won prior to 58? How many alive now?

Reality is that in the average Collingwood supporters lifetime, North have won more flags than their Pies.

Our last four were 99,96,77,75. Their last four were 10,90,58 - and I actually had to go to Google for this - 1953.

So, to have seen as many flags in your lifetime as a North supporter, a Collingwood supporter would have to be 58.

Really, they'd have to be 70. I don't remember many games I went to before I was 12.

There's many many historical reasons why Collingwood have a huge supporter base.

Why have they gone from a parlous financial position in the 80s and the 90s to the powerhouse they are now?

The very astute leadership of TV MAN Eddie McGuire who maximised their exposure.

Again - why did Collingwood sudden;y decide they liked Friday nights and lobby the AFL for more of them in the late 90s?

(I'm not having a go, I wish we had a President with Eddie's pull, vision and results)

 

[MaddAdam]

I'd answer but how is this even relevant to the topic of the thread?

Collingwood supporters having a go at Carlton - whom I despise - for getting special financial treatment from the AFL.

Just interested as regards some of the efforts Collingwood have pulled.

 

[dirk pitt]

..seriously..?.. ..3rd party deals are/were common in the AFL, have been for yrs.. ..Juddy was gettin' one over in the west before us.. ..also, 3rd party deals aren't for the blues alone, and have ONLY been now "tightened up" in the face of geelong trying to retain Gazza [GCS] and melbourne trying to retain Scully [GWS].. ..don't be surprised when they're reviewed [conveniently after expansion period] and allowed once more..

Precisely ... the rules have been temporarily suspended to ensure that the new clubs get the uncontracted players they need to build their lists and certain clubs are getting screwed to achieve that. That's hardly Carlton's fault.

It'll never be reviewed. All that will happen is the minute the GWS dust settles Richmond will ask to have a Judd-esque ASA approved for Martin, a story will appear in a newspaper saying that "Ken Wood" (who is just a nom de plume that keeps Demetriou at arms length from his unpopular decisions) approved it and everything will revert to normal.

Geez, it's not like we only travel every 18 months, get 15 consecutive home games leading into the finals and set our own tribunal penalties.

 

[s_cranberry]

Really? How many Collingwood fans were there for the flags won prior to 58? How many alive now?

That's not what I'm saying at all... Generally the way that football allegiances work is you follow who your old man goes for... It's bred into you as a kid.


Mate of mine is a Richmond supporter his dad laid out three tigers jumpers and said you can only follow one one of these teams

It get passed down through generations

 

[Zahki]

Collingwood supporters having a go at Carlton - whom I despise - for getting special financial treatment from the AFL.

Just interested as regards some of the efforts Collingwood have pulled.

Collingwood play by the same rules as every other club in the AFL. Carlton have a 3rd party deal that effectively gives them more salary cap room than any other club gets. The circumstances how Collingwood is in the position it is now is irrelevant, you yourself have admitted it was by astute administration, not loopholes that give us an advantage no other club is able to get. Old Spices point is now Carlton are sniffing around players and trying to use that extra spce to lure them away when otherwise they could not if not for that unique deal that no other club is able to benefit from.

 

[MaddAdam]

TICKY FULLERTON: The national game is powering ahead, thanks to $500 million for AFL's TV and Internet rights.

Now, more than ever, power sits in the hands of a few.

Let me put it to you that you are one of the top faces of Channel Nine, yet your lawyer and the AFL's lawyer were one and the same.

EDDIE MCGUIRE: Yeah, Geoff Brown, yeah.

TICKY FULLERTON: Geoff Brown.

Doesn't that present an extraordinary potential conflict of interest, when you've got Seven competing with Nine and Foxtel for those rights?

EDDIE MCGUIRE: He's also the girlfriend --

the boyfriend of Anne Fulwood.

One of Seven's main people.

And I think he has negotiated contracts for Jennifer Hansen at Channel 10.

So --

TICKY FULLERTON: But you and Anne Fulwood are slightly different in the deal-making stakes.

EDDIE MCGUIRE: Yeah, but I don't think that's --

I mean, look, I suppose on the surface you could say, "Yeah, it is."

But where?

TICKY FULLERTON: How can Geoff Brown be the lawyer for Eddie McGuire, the face of Channel Nine, and also for the AFL during the TV rights deal?

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/s526576.htm

No lobbying could go on there hey.

 

[Steeleyourself]

Collingwood supporters having a go at Carlton - whom I despise - for getting special financial treatment from the AFL.

Just interested as regards some of the efforts Collingwood have pulled.

Our special, financial treatment is available to other clubs if they wish to persue it, available if they can achieve it, and usable if they do.

If I am reading this correct, Carlton have 1 more year of 200k outside the Salary cap, something other teams can NOT afford to do, do NOT have access too and can NOT achieve fairly if they do.

That's the major difference, Eddie bought in bucks, but couldn't go around the game's rules, he had to play within them, this, seemingly, does not.

 

[MaddAdam]

WAYNE JACKSON: Um, well --

If he is, I don't see why that is --

Was it a conflict before Eddie became president, or before Nine got the rights, or is it only a conflict since Eddie became president of the Collingwood Football Club and that Channel Nine have got part of our broadcasting rights?

TICKY FULLERTON: I think the potential conflict lies with Eddie McGuire being the face of Channel Nine, and that it was a very competitive situation for those TV rights between Seven on the one hand, and Nine and Foxtel on the other.

WAYNE JACKSON: Well, I think if there's a concern about conflicts of interest with Eddie and Channel Nine, that's an issue for Channel Nine and for Eddie.

TICKY FULLERTON: And for you.

WAYNE JACKSON: Well, I'm not sure it is for us, because Eddie has made an enormous difference to the Collingwood Football Club.

He's passionate, he's very energetic, works hard for Australian football, and harder, just as hard for the Collingwood footy club.

I'm not sure where the AFL is at threat.

Again, I'm not having a go at Collingwood or Eddie. They just did the best for their club. As he should.

But let's dispense with this notion that it is stout yeoman legions of Collingwood fans who have made the club the financial powerhouse.

It was Eddie McGuire, a very skilled operator, a man who ran Channel 9 for a while, a man with great contacts, who turned the ship around, and his key decision was lobbying for Friday nights - every club lobbies for games in certain timeslots - when his club had ignored them for nearly 15 years.

 

[MaddAdam]

Collingwood play by the same rules as every other club in the AFL. Carlton have a 3rd party deal that effectively gives them more salary cap room than any other club gets. The circumstances how Collingwood is in the position it is now is irrelevant, you yourself have admitted it was by astute administration, not loopholes that give us an advantage no other club is able to get. Old Spices point is now Carlton are sniffing around players and trying to use that extra spce to lure them away when otherwise they could not if not for that unique deal that no other club is able to benefit from.

Indeed, a good post. All I get crappy with is the Collingwood fans acting as if it was always thus re: finances, when the reality is they initially abandoned the thing that has hugely contributed to where they are and then used their bulk to bully their way back into it when another club - that had done the hard yards - was doing very nicely out of it.