W Carey vs J Brown

[Devil Fish]

I was asked this question last week:
Who's 1st 100 games were more impressive - Carey or Brown?
Thoughts?

 

[spurs]

Brown

 

[Firrito24]

100 games, 3 premierships. Hard to argue with.

 

[Z_K]

I would bet Carey has better numbers in his first 100 games.

Has to be remembered of the sides they both played for. Brown is playing in the best side ever. We struggled for most of Carey's first 100. Playing CHF to Akermanis, Black, Voss, Power and Lappin is a gift.

 

[magoo]

To me Carey was the best player that I have ever seen. so as good as brown is i just don't think he's up there.

 

[Woodson]

Strip those premiership medals away and look at the big picture. Browny has only come into calculations when the Lions need Brown the Matchwinner not the Brisbane midfield making the Brown comparison look lobsided based on a team achievement. On the first 100 games >> irrelevant comparison. Why isn't Dermie compared to Carey in that case ?? Dermie has all the achievements Brown can achieve still but Dermie is still noted for his team achievements than individual dominance as Brown is shaping to become.

Not worth comparing yet. Carey has 2 AFL MVP awards to his name, if Brown can get those under his belt then Brown is entitled to be elevated to the same status as Carey.

 

[dani77]

Carey, many of his first 100 games revealed awesome RAW talent that just got better and better, always been in a league of his own and always will... Brown is good, but he aint THAT good!

 

[Marstermind]

Carey played his 100th game in Round 2, 1995. To this point he had 2 B&Fs, 0 flags, 0 leading goalkickers, 1 night flag, 3rd year as captain. Brown has 0 B&Fs, 3 flags, 0 leading goalkickers, 0 night flags, never been captain. But of course this, along with other stats, are useless as a guide to who's the better player. How would each have gone in a weaker/different team?

Let's apply the black hats to them both. Without going into DeBono's thinking strategies too much, black hat thinking is trying to find fault or problems caused by something - in this case Carey and Brown. I haven't followed Brown's career as closely as Carey's but quite clearly a fault with Brown is his temperament and tribunal record. Of course, this was a fault of Carey's in his first 100 games too.

The only faults I can find with Carey (as a footballer) was that his record against the top defenders - eg. Silvagni & Jakovich - was only good. Not bad...better than most in fact...but just good. He was drawn into wrestling duels against top defenders too easily.

The only other thing I can think of was an over-reliance on him when the team was struggling. It used to frustrate me when we were getting done and Carey was down, the amount of times we'd just bomb the thing in there to him only for it to bounce straight out. Not totally Carey's fault - but a problem caused by his presence.

Can anoyone else with a better knowledge of Brown's game help me out?

 

[Falkroo]

Strip those premiership medals away and look at the big picture. Browny has only come into calculations when the Lions need Brown the Matchwinner not the Brisbane midfield making the Brown comparison look lobsided based on a team achievement. On the first 100 games >> irrelevant comparison. Why isn't Dermie compared to Carey in that case ?? Dermie has all the achievements Brown can achieve still but Dermie is still noted for his team achievements than individual dominance as Brown is shaping to become.

Not worth comparing yet. Carey has 2 AFL MVP awards to his name, if Brown can get those under his belt then Brown is entitled to be elevated to the same status as Carey.

Fair call Woodson. I don't think the North sides of the 90s could be compared with the Lions (best ever tagged teams), as good as Brown is, I think it has been a case of a great side making him look good, whereas Carey performed incredible deeds in great, but not legendary sides.

And Devil Fish, you're definitely having one of those PCB days aren't you?

 

[tribey]

Carey by the length of the straight.

Jonathan Brown Career Stats

I count 10 in that first 100 where he's booted 4 goals or more in a game, and the majority of those have come only recently - compare that to Carey who was consistently influencing and winning his fair share of games off his own boot.

As for the three Premierships argument, I'll say again, they have no bearing whatsoever on individual greatness:

Pike has 4

A whole host of scrubbers have 1

Ablett, Lockett, Roos and Buckley have 0.

Brown has a stack of potential, that much is certain, but too many people get carried away with hype over fact.

 

[Woodson]

Can anoyone else with a better knowledge of Brown's game help me out?

Compare the midfield class >> Poles apart. Pagan had a less stable structure but same gameplan vs Lethal Leigh's more stable structure and alternative gameplan. How many goals were kicked by both players ? More importantly, the 'assists' that the AFL stats don't keep. Carey would have to be miles ahead of Brown in that dept as well. If ppl want to talk about 'more premiership medals makes you a better player' then alot of Hawthorn players would be streets ahead of many geniune champions.

 

[sbdan]

Carey by the length of the straight.

Jonathan Brown Career Stats

I count 10 in that first 100 where he's booted 4 goals or more in a game, and the majority of those have come only recently - compare that to Carey who was consistently influencing and winning his fair share of games off his own boot.

THat page is great - you see Carey's stats? http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/players/W/Wayne_Carey.html

It starts in 1993 & he was still only 22. I was still following the Roys back then so missed a bit of that!

 

[Souup]

Carey > Brown

 

[Shagga is all Class]

100 games, 3 premierships. Hard to argue with.

That sort of logic would mean Dermie was a better CHF than Carey as well which we all know is not the case. Brown was just another good player in those premiership years, Carey was the man! Brown's three premierships netted 69 goals from 63 games and around 13 possies a game. Carey was kicking 69 goals a season before the 100 games mark and he had Longmire who was a 500 goal traditional full forward in from of him.

One must remember that Carey kicked 3 goals a game for his career. He would also do things like get 30 possessions at CHF, kick 80 goals in premiership years, take 200 marks and get close to 500 quality possessions for the year. Take a look at some of the finals Carey played and tell me Brown is better. 94 against Hawthorn and Geelong. 96 against Geelong and Brisbane. I actually thought Carey was better in 96. He only kicked 3 in each of those finals but almost every goal went through him. Alllison kicked 7 against Geelong in 96 and all I can remember him doing is running by Carey who was recovering his own crumbs and handballing it out. His passing and disposal in those finals meant he was giving goals away when outside 50 as well as kicking them himself.

Sorry, but Brown has a long long way to go to be the King. 1.5 goals a game and 3 medals in a champion team does not compare to the King! When you can kick 11 by 3/4 time at CHF with two posters and get 30 touches, then you are the King!

When you take into account that Carey's arm movement was limited from a shoulder reconstruction at 18 that he really could not extend it then you begin to wonder how good would he have been. He was the greatest chest mark of all time but did we actually miss out on a 1,000 goal CHF!

 

[wakeboardandy]

I love watching J Brown play because he is the closest thing to Carey playing at the moment.

When I say closest the distance between them is still poles apart but I would go to a game to watch J.Brown play just because he reminds me of the greatness Carey brought to our game.

 

[atpp]

Wayne Carey is without question the greatest player ever. No one will EVER be as good

 

[Heart]

I love watching J Brown play because he is the closest thing to Carey playing at the moment.

When I say closest the distance between them is still poles apart but I would go to a game to watch J.Brown play just because he reminds me of the greatness Carey brought to our game.

Didn't Carey actually say that Brown reminded him of himself at that age ??

 

[Wild Kangaroo]

Carey Hands Down

 

[RooVegas]

I love watching J Brown play because he is the closest thing to Carey playing at the moment.
.

I'd agree with that. I love watching Brown because I just love watching great, tough players dominate games. He more than anyone reminds me of Carey and is probably the best player in the league at the moment (injuries permitting).

That said, I think Carey was better at the same stage in their careers. If memory serves, in 1995 when Carey was playing his 100th game the articles about him were generally asking questions like: "Is he the greatest ever." He was also about as big as the game got - there were major Nike ads, sports drink ads and a host of other sponsorship contracts (all prior to the King St incident?). But gee, Brown is good too. I'd rate Carey, Brown and Brereton as the 3-2-1 CHFs in my lifetime (with apologies to Kernahan).

 

[utility]

Carey. If he had the midfield of Brisbane he would of won flags in his first 100 games too.

Carey (or Williams) should of won the '93 Brownlow and his two finals in '94 are better than any of Brown's finals performances... with a stuffed calf muscle too! On top of that Carey had the responsiblity of captaincy for two full seasons before his 100th game.

 

[Woodson]

Carey. If he had the midfield of Brisbane he would of won flags in his first 100 games too.

Carey (or Williams) should of won the '93 Brownlow and his two finals in '94 are better than any of Brown's finals performances... with a stuffed calf muscle too! On top of that Carey had the responsiblity of captaincy for two full seasons before his 100th game.

Well pointed out Utility. That's the basic stuff that many folk will overlook. Comparing apples with apples is what needs to be done now and after JB career is done & dusted. On the '93 Brownlow, I think we all know why he missed out on votes. At least Carey doesn't need to suck up to the umps like the spineless Wanga.

 

[Stevo's Girl]

Carey. Without a doubt. Brown is good, but Carey is better.



Go Rooboys

 

[Devil Fish]

Carey Hands Down

Should that be hands down or pants down? Nah, only joking. How dare I jest at the Great Man's expense. Who do I think I am?

Anyway, whoever raised the point re Brown having 3 premiership medals & Carey 0 in their first 100 games as meaning little was spot on. Does that mean Capuano was as good a player as Shaun Renn? Does that mean Shane Clayton was a better footballer than Robert Flower??? Premiership medals don't mean a real lot when comparing the brilliance of 2 players. Brown has had Black, Voss, Hart, Akermanis, Lappin etc feeding him his entire career. Whereas Carey had helicopter finger-breaking bombs from Shane Clayton, Stevo, Simmo, Scott etc. I know which midfield would be easier to receive the ball from.
Brown's performance against Ess this year was great - Carey-esque in fact. The media went nuts, but Carey did that 7-8 times/year!!!!!

 

[tribey]

Brown's performance against Ess this year was great - Carey-esque in fact. The media went nuts, but Carey did that 7-8 times/year!!!!!

Imagine what Carey would have done to Ty Zantuck and Ted Richards under the sterile conditions of a closed Telstra Dome?

I'm still amazed Sheedy had such a thought process let alone actually acted upon it, "Hmmm. A fully fit Jonathan Brown (195cm/99kgs) is back and Lethal is trying to isolate him in the square. Sounds like a job for Zantuck (188cm/93kgs)."

 

[Devil Fish]

Imagine what Carey would have done to Ty Zantuck and Ted Richards under the sterile conditions of a closed Telstra Dome?

I'm still amazed Sheedy had such a thought process let alone actually acted upon it, "Hmmm. A fully fit Jonathan Brown (195cm/99kgs) is back and Lethal is trying to isolate him in the square. Sounds like a job for Zantuck (188cm/93kgs)."

Yeah, Ty Zantuck would've been dehumanised by Carey.