Current WAR CRIMES Israel Hamas Conflict Pt 2 - * ICC issues warrants for Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu & Yoav Gallant & for Hamas's Mohammed Deif

[Kurve]

Here is PART 1

The ICC has also issued warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant and for Hamas leader Mohammed Deif, who Israel says they have killed.

According to the ICC, the chamber “found reasonable grounds to believe” that Deif was “responsible for the crimes against humanity of murder; extermination; torture; and rape and other form of sexual violence; as well as the war crimes of murder, cruel treatment, torture; taking hostages; outrages upon personal dignity; and rape and other form of sexual violence”.

It also said there were reasonable grounds to believe the crimes against humanity were “part of a widespread and systematic attack directed by Hamas and other armed groups against the civilian population of Israel”.

For Netanyahu and Gallant, who was replaced as defence minister earlier this month, the chamber “found reasonable grounds to believe” that they “each bear criminal responsibility for the following crimes as co-perpetrators for committing the acts jointly with others: the war crime of starvation as a method of warfare; and the crimes against humanity of murder, persecution, and other inhumane acts”.

It also found reasonable grounds to believe that “each bear criminal responsibility as civilian superiors for the war crime of intentionally directing an attack against the civilian population”.

INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT

INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT - Elements of Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes

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[Lunchlady Doris]

It's as if allegations of torture, cutting heads off, murder and abducting men, women and children isn't as offensive as allegations of rape and sexual violence for some reason. It seems to be perversely counterintuitive for groups I've assumed to be progressives.

The UNs ICC has had access to complainants and witnesses, which is suppressed.

It's a strange reaction I agree. The accusations are always at the forefront when people are justifying the slaughter of Palestinian civilians, like they understand the visceral reaction just the thought provokes.

The ICC has access to complainants and witnesses that the Israeli legal taskforce set up to investigate sexual violence on Oct 7 don't?

I find that extremely hard to believe.

If you think Israel is guilty of murder, persecution and starvation, yes.

It doesn't matter what I think. This is a huge copout.

 

[Kurve]

It's a strange reaction I agree. The accusations are always at the forefront when people are justifying the slaughter of Palestinian civilians, like they understand the visceral reaction just the thought provokes.

I haven't seen anybody actually bring rape and sexual violence to the forefront as justification for bombs on Gaza because it's not. It's weak.

It doesn't give me any kind of strong emotional reaction, the only time I might wade in now is to try to counter or understand the absurd denial when someone brings it up.

If the worst thing that happened on the day was a sexual assault, all things considered, horrible but I'd be pretty relieved I lived through it.

Perhaps the strong visceral response is your own.

It doesn't matter what I think. This is a huge copout.

Why is it a copout? I think it's hypocritical or contrary to accept the ICCs charges against Netanyahu and Gallant but reject those against Deif.

 

[Jazny]

Are you denying Israel had any involvement or interest in Hamas being in power in Gaza?

You're doing this thing again where you vaguely try and discredit something, without actually saying anything.

Because it's all been said before. Same boring talking points and he's already walked back his original claim so hard it's barely worth engaging further. It went from the sensational claim that ISRAEL FUNDED HAMAS BECAUSE THEY ARE EXTREMISTS WHO CAN'T BE NEGOTIATED WITH AND BIBI BRAGS ABOUT IT! To the 'Israel facilitated funds from Qatar to Hamas', which is common knowledge and boring. Their reasons for doing it made lot of sense at the time, I bet you don't really know why apart from the reason given by Bibi to those in his party who opposed the policy, according to a source.

This is the same boring pattern far left people come out with because they have never bothered to fact check the Hasanabi streams or Grayzone videos they binge-watch: Make a sensational claim that would be earth shattering news if true, slowly walk back the claim upon fact checking until the claim is now barely recognizable and relatively mundane.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Because it's all been said before. Same boring talking points and he's already walked back his original claim so hard it's barely worth engaging further. It went from the sensational claim that ISRAEL FUNDED HAMAS BECAUSE THEY ARE EXTREMISTS WHO CAN'T BE NEGOTIATED WITH AND BIBI BRAGS ABOUT IT! To the 'Israel facilitated funds from Qatar to Hamas', which is common knowledge and boring. Their reasons for doing it made lot of sense at the time, I bet you don't really know why apart from the reason given by Bibi to those in his party who opposed the policy, according to a source.

You sure do a lot of betting in this thread.

Israel did directly fund Mujama al-Islamiya, Yassin's Islamic charity, in the 80s, and helped him to expand and operate freely. All in an effort to undermine Fatah and the PLO. They apparently saw the Muslim Brotherhood fundamentalists as less threatening than the secular left-wing PLO, though it seems hard to believe now.

There's plenty of people on record including former Israeli PMs who state Bibi did everything he could to **** the PA and boost Hamas, in order to prevent any progress on peace and Palestinian statehood. It helped advance the annexation of the West Bank as well of course. Only Bibi himself tries to deny it.

I'd love to hear these sensible reasons for doing it you refer to.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

I haven't seen anybody actually bring rape and sexual violence to the forefront as justification for bombs on Gaza because it's not. It's weak.

I'm not talking about this thread, I'm talking about the wider world, where it is rife.

It doesn't give me any kind of strong emotional reaction, the only time I might wade in is to try to counter or understand the absurd denial when someone brings it up.

If the worst thing that happened on the day was a sexual assault, all things considered, horrible but I'd be pretty relieved I lived through it.

Perhaps the strong visceral response is your own.

If you say so.

Why is it a copout? I think it's hypocritical or contrary to accept the ICCs charges against Netanyahu and Gallant but reject those against Deif.

They're charges, that's the reality, there's no accepting them or not, they are fact.

They're not anything more than that until they're tested, for any of the accused parties.

Declaring charges are proof of guilt, then claiming I'm somehow hypocritical because of my criticism of Israel is the copout.

If some rape prosecutions are not pursued because the victims are dead, isn't the flex you seem to think it is.

It's the worst argument I think I've seen.

Rape cases are regularly prosecuted despite the victim being deceased, not sure why that would stop anyone.

It would also be extremely hard to argue prosecution was not in the public's interest, given the nature and scale of events. Try telling the entire taskforce they shouldn't proceed because a victim is deceased.

The only reason a prosecution wouldn't go ahead would be the evidence available doesn't provide a realistic prospect of conviction. Or I guess they don't have a suspect. That video evidence would be useful right now.

The NYT article didn't kick this off, witness testimony and dead bodies did. The NYT still stands behind the article, if portions of it came under fire for various reasons or appears to be debunked.

It was reported early on that no evidence was found by the experts processing remains to indicate sexual assault had taken place. The scenes could not be matched to the testimony given by witnesses who saw, or maybe heard, sexual violence taking place. I can dig those statements from Israelis in Israeli sources again if we need to.

The NYT article and one of the claims that have been debunked.

Israeli Soldier’s Video Undercuts Medic’s Account of Sexual Assault

Kibbutz residents concluded that two sisters killed on Oct. 7 were not victims of sexual violence.

www.nytimes.com

Lurid, horrific witness testimony from an IDF member.



Found to be completely fabricated.

This story was widespread, broadcast several times by the Spokesman for the State of Israel. Can watch a video of the back of his head as he recounts completely made up testimony. Still available, no retractions.



Be'eri is also where the false story of the pregnant woman who had her fetus stabbed originated, as well as the two piles of ten children tied together and burned, stories invented by Zaka, who we rely on for testimony about sexual assault victims for some reason.

One for Zidane98 :



C'mon, what's his problem!?!? What's he so worried about?!?!?

 

[Kurve]

I'm not talking about this thread, I'm talking about the wider world, where it is rife.

You might be looking for it, your focus on the issue of sexual violence October 7 seems to be unusual.

 

[Kurve]

Rape cases are regularly prosecuted despite the victim being deceased

No they're not.

If a rape victim has been murdered, without a confession it most often goes to murder as prioritising the most serious offence.

They also need to find the offender to begin with.

It was reported early on that no evidence was found by the experts processing remains to indicate sexual assault had taken place.

 

[Zidane98]

Are you denying Israel had any involvement or interest in Hamas being in power in Gaza?

You're doing this thing again where you vaguely try and discredit something, without actually saying anything.

Tell us why you don't believe that quote is accurate. Or are you just claiming that because a poster may not have read the original article, it's invalid?

Quite the desperation from Hamas supporters to claim Israel are behind Hamas.


In reality Hamas seized power in 2007, killed off Palestinian opposition and proceeded to militarise Gaza with the main focus being annihilation of Jews.

Israel have never wanted to deal with Hamas. That is pretty clear

Also reality - they're a neighbouring state government therefore Israel has no choice but to deal with Hamas. Eg agreeing work permit deal just 8 days before the terror attack.

Until Hamas are removed from power Israel will still have to deal with them - even post war. Because there's no choice.

 

[Zidane98]

Doesn't matter how you spin it for over a decade, Israel facilitated the transfer of 10's of millions of dollars of funds from Qatar to Hamas as a method of ensuring that Gaza and the West Bank would remain under separate governing authorities. Gaza under Hamas and the West Bank under the Palastinian Authority in order to guarantee that there could be no progress towards a Palastinian state. Netenyahu and other Zionist government party leaders have openly talked about this policy for years and suggestion that this isn't the case is just delusional. It's all coming from the same idiots defending genocide happening right now

Fact - Qatar funded Hamas, not Israel.

Imagine the outcry from supporters of genocidal Hamas if Israel actually refused to allow Qatar to fund Hamas.

 

[DapperDon]

Quite the desperation from Hamas supporters

Imagine the outcry from supporters of genocidal Hamas

Annnnnnnd, we're back!

 

[Zidane98]

Annnnnnnd, we're back!

Congratulations on owning it.

 

[Zidane98]

No they're not.

If a rape victim has been murdered, without a confession it most often goes to murder as prioritising the most serious offence.

They also need to find the offender to begin with.

Thanks for clarifying. Is it correct in most justice systems that the higher charge is charged?

On this, has the state of Palestine offered any assistance in tracking down perpetrators? Has anyone involved in Oct 7 that wasn't eliminated faced legal action in Palestine?



Disturbing to read in this thread playing down Oct 7 war crimes of sexual violence used as a means to terrorise a civilian population.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Thanks for clarifying. Is it correct in most justice systems that the higher charge is charged?

On this, has the state of Palestine offered any assistance in tracking down perpetrators? Has anyone involved in Oct 7 that wasn't eliminated faced legal action in Palestine?



Disturbing to read in this thread playing down Oct 7 war crimes of sexual violence used as a means to terrorise a civilian population.

Are you saying that all those bombs Israel dropped wasn't legal?

 

[Zidane98]

Are you saying that all those bombs Israel dropped wasn't legal?

An interesting response to a discussion about rape being charged as a war crime with a strong hint of whataboutism.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

You might be looking for it, your focus on the issue of sexual violence October 7 seems to be unusual.

Use twitter for 10 minutes.

 

[Zidane98]

Use twitter for 10 minutes.

Blue sky is better

 

[Jazny]

Use twitter for 10 minutes.

Get off twitter for your own mental health.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Blue sky is better

I should totally make the switch, I know.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Get off twitter for your own mental health.

Can't rely on western media for news unfortunately.

I know, it's twitter, but there's some good stuff amongst the mountains of dreck.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

An interesting response to a discussion about rape being charged as a war crime with a strong hint of whataboutism.

Well it's a bit hard for police to do their job when bombs are dropping everywhere. Don't you think?

 

[Kurve]

Thanks for clarifying. Is it correct in most justice systems that the higher charge is charged?

Yes, murder is the most serious and takes priority. If you can get someone for murder, the lesser wrongs are satisfied with the highest penalty on a conviction for murder.

Not always, there might be a confession for example in which case, it would probably be used in the prosecution.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

No they're not.

If a rape victim has been murdered, without a confession it most often goes to murder as prioritising the most serious offence.

You're telling me we have the highest profile world event in recent history, where an avalanche of rape allegations were generated, and where there's some contention about those allegations, and the massive task force assembled to prosecute are not going to lay a rape charge when there's any chance of conviction?

They're only worried about the most serious offences?

It's beyond the bounds of credibility, I'm sorry.

They also need to find the offender to begin with.

They have arrested thousands and thousands of supposed Hamas operatives. And killed thousands more who could be charged.

They even have all those helpful confessions, we've seen the videos, they admitted it. What's going on?!

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Quite the desperation from Hamas supporters to claim Israel are behind Hamas.

You don't deal with facts at all, you say what you think sounds good, but actually you are completely clueless on the subject.

In reality Hamas seized power in 2007, killed off Palestinian opposition and proceeded to militarise Gaza with the main focus being annihilation of Jews.

Israel have never wanted to deal with Hamas. That is pretty clear

Also reality - they're a neighbouring state government therefore Israel has no choice but to deal with Hamas. Eg agreeing work permit deal just 8 days before the terror attack.

Until Hamas are removed from power Israel will still have to deal with them - even post war. Because there's no choice.

In reality....pointless irrelevant nonsense tangent

 

[Kurve]

You're telling me we have the highest profile world event in recent history, where an avalanche of rape allegations were generated, and where there's some contention about those allegations, and the massive task force assembled to prosecute are not going to lay a rape charge when there's any chance of conviction?

They're only worried about the most serious offences?

It's beyond the bounds of credibility, I'm sorry.

That isn't what I said.

 

[Kurve]

They have arrested thousands and thousands of supposed Hamas operatives. And killed thousands more who could be charged.

They even have all those helpful confessions, we've seen the videos, they admitted it. What's going on?!

It must be so hard for you to wait this out.