WCE peak Judd was better than peak GAJ and peak Dustin Martin

[Headless]

Trac wasn’t worth the 100 point turnaround. Your whole team smashed them.

Perhaps Melbourne 2021 was just a better team overall than Richmond 2020, and Petracca 2021 also had a better grand final than Martin 2020.

 

[Falcon3518]

Perhaps Melbourne 2021 was just a better team overall than Richmond 2020, and Petracca 2021 also had a better grand final than Martin 2020.

Ok but it depends on what you think “better” means. I’d prefer a guy kicking 21 disposals and 4 goals in shortened game time over somebody with 39 disposals and 2 goals especially when the margin was closer and our team looked gone. Game wasn’t decided until 5 mins left.

 

[H00t]

Wow can’t believe you think Trac 2021 performance was better than dustys 2020 performance. Dees won by 70+ points Dusty dragged Richmond across the line in a come from behind win. We looked gone, we don’t win without him. This is what happens when people just look at numbers and not the influence on the games.

Also comparing fritsch’s 6 goals and dustys 6 goals in their GF and QF respectively is wrong. One is a forward and one is a mid.


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Dees flogging dogs was in part because of how good Petracca was. Both dees and tigers came back from a similar margin, ~20 points.

Give me Petracca’s game any day of the week.

Yes the mid Dusty who didn’t leave the forward 50 in that game and only had 1 more possession than Fritsch did. Only real difference is Dusty did manage 10 clangers.

 

[H00t]

Are they statistically better, or was his influence greater?

Watching GAJ at Gold Coast before his shoulder injury you had to marvel at some of the solo efforts he was putting in. 41 touches, 13 clearances, 8 tackles, 4 goals playing with 13 teammates that haven't even played 10 games, you have to doff your hat. But some of his high possession games with the Cats and Suns were a bit Tom Mitchell-esque. I'm not excited by a guy of Ablett's calibre racking up uncontested handballs.

Dusty has 3 40 disposal games in his whole career. Judd who played in a lower possession era has none. GAJ has 19. It's all about impact. Hence people still talk about Judd kicking 5 in a half in a home and away game in 2003. Dusty has never had 30 touches in a final let alone 40 yet has 3 Norm Smiths and we're here talking about his peak.

Both. Ablett was statistically better but also had a greater influence. I think his influence is underrated because of how ridiculously good he was for so long and how he was good in pretty much every game he played during his peak. There was no off games to compare it to.

The difference between a GAJ and a Tom Mitchell is GAJ constantly put his teammates in a better position when he got the ball. His ball use by hand or foot was sublime. He had hurt factor while also getting a ton of the ball. Most players have one or the other. Even dusty and Judd were hurt factor without the accumulation. And when Dusty did accumulate his hurt factor was way down.

 

[SleepingGiant]

Some people on here have no idea. How in gods name can any of these players have a higher peak than dominating 7/8 finals matches in a row with BOG performances and winning 3 Norm Smith medals. You say higher peak… what higher peak could you climb lol. If Dusty played for a bulldogs we would have a soft spot and be gobbing him off. GAJ is definitely more consistently better, the question is peak, how can they get close to that peak?

Answer is nobody in the history of the AFL gets to that peak. Closest is Leigh Mathew’s.

 

[SleepingGiant]

For the talk how how great the previous sides are in Geelongs time are please… Any team with Baker, Geary, King, Clarke, Farren Ray

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, McQualter, Gram etc featuring regularly is such a powerhouse to come up against. Absolutely terrifying haha. Peak 2017 GWS or Adelaide would smash them and I would argue a 2020 Geelong or 2019 Eagles would take them out too. People forget in 2019 we faced a peak eagles at the G and had to run through them to get Top 4. That’s coming up against a formidable GF winner.

 

[Headless]

For the talk how how great the previous sides are in Geelongs time are please… Any team with Baker, Geary, King, Clarke, Farren Ray, McQualter, Gram etc featuring regularly is such a powerhouse to come up against. Absolutely terrifying haha. Peak 2017 GWS or Adelaide would smash them and I would argue a 2020 Geelong or 2019 Eagles would take them out too. People forget in 2019 we faced a peak eagles at the G and had to run through them to get Top 4. That’s coming up against a formidable GF winner.

St Kilda 2009-10 was better than all of the above teams IMO.

 

[PhatBoy]

Some people on here have no idea. How in gods name can any of these players have a higher peak than dominating 7/8 finals matches in a row with BOG performances and winning 3 Norm Smith medals. You say higher peak… what higher peak could you climb lol. If Dusty played for a bulldogs we would have a soft spot and be gobbing him off. GAJ is definitely more consistently better, the question is peak, how can they get close to that peak?

Answer is nobody in the history of the AFL gets to that peak. Closest is Leigh Mathew’s.

Because dominance doesn’t equal quality. How hard can it be for you guys to understand this? It really shouldn’t be that difficult.

Scenario 1:
Martin plays a game that, in isolation, if you are just watching him, he plays obviously very well in a match where the general standard isn’t THAT great from either his team or the other team, but he does enough to clearly be the best player on the field. As someone pointed out, he racked up a million clangers to go with his incredible forward craft in the game against us.

Scenario 2: A player like Christian Petracca, also in a game where his side is trailing and falling out of touch with their opponent, is easily the best player on the field in the second half, and leads his team to a huge win as they simply belt the Dogs in the second half. Petracca is the best on the field but he has half a dozen teammates who also play incredibly well to help the Demons win.



Now what argument are you using, exactly, to prove that Martin was better? That he stood out more? Good for him. All that does though, is ‘blame’ Petracca because his teammates also played well. It’s not his fault Gawn played a great second half of Fritsch did likewise. Why should his level be judged as ‘inferior’ to Martin’s just because in Martin’s game, the other 43 players were all either average or slight above/below average?




I know your Tiger loving friend in this thread doesn’t know or understand other sports but you might:

Many people who watch cricket remember David Warner’s first test hundred, in Hobart while his teammates collapsed and lost a test to Doug Bracewell of all people. It WAS a great knock, no argument, but it was all the more impressive because no one around him did Jack shit. It stood out.

13 years earlier at the same ground Justin Langer and Adam Gilchrist each hit a century with their side 5-120 chasing 320 against Pakistan.

Of the 3 innings, Gilchrist’s to me was the Best But using your logic it couldn’t have been because someone else played well in the same game.

 

[Warhorse]

Some people on here have no idea. How in gods name can any of these players have a higher peak than dominating 7/8 finals matches in a row with BOG performances and winning 3 Norm Smith medals. You say higher peak… what higher peak could you climb lol. If Dusty played for a bulldogs we would have a soft spot and be gobbing him off. GAJ is definitely more consistently better, the question is peak, how can they get close to that peak?

Answer is nobody in the history of the AFL gets to that peak. Closest is Leigh Mathew’s.

I actually agree. Dusty's finals much better than either Judd or Abletts. The best finals player we have ever seen.

 

[PhatBoy]

I actually agree. Dusty's finals much better than either Judd or Abletts. The best finals player we have ever seen.

And that’s fine if you think his level or quality of play WAS higher but holding Judd or Ablett responsible because they also had teammates play exceptionally is not a proper or fair judgement criteria

 

[Wojcinski]

Perhaps Melbourne 2021 was just a better team overall than Richmond 2020, and Petracca 2021 also had a better grand final than Martin 2020.

Melbourne 2021 would smash Richmond 2020

 

[RichLeMonde]

Couple of thoughts:

"Better" can mean different things in different contexts.

To begin with a basketball comparison, I watched all of Jordan's and all of Lebron's careers, and am a fan of both. If you were picking an All-Star team, or if it was the famous 92 Dream Team scrimmage, where there were stars everywhere, I think Jordan would be the most valuable addition. With good players around him, he adds more than any other player. But, if you were building a team from scratch, starting with the draft, and didn't yet have other pieces of the puzzle in place, I think Lebron is more valuable. Jordan couldn't make the Bulls a serious contender until he had the right pieces around him. Lebron on the other hand made the Finals (Grand Final series) 8 times in a row, sometimes wtih dogshit teams - he made any team an immediate contender. So I'd say Lebron and Jordan are both "better" than each other in different ways.

Same goes with footy. I would say Dusty is the most valuable finals player I've seen, but that's when he was playing in a top team surrounded by other good players. When Dusty doesn't have good players around him, he doesn't pick the team up by the scruff and drag them over the line, like Judd did, like GAJ did at GC, or even like Toby Greene

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did a number of times last season. So I'd draft Judd and GAJ ahead of Dusty - as a basis to build a team around - but would easily take Dusty ahead of Judd heading into a finals series. Not sure if I'd take Dusty ahead of GAJ heading into a finals series. Hard to split - sad we never got to see GAJ play finals at GC, but his finals record at Geelong was out of this world.

When it comes to Judd, I think he gets a little overrated and some rose-coloured glasses put on. The topic of this thread is "peak" Judd/GAJ/Dusty. Judd's absolute peak - 2006 - was still well behind GAJ as far as touches, clearances, goals, goal assists, and he was the cream in a dominant midfield. I think because Judd's game was so aesthetically pleasing people remember the dramatic bursts from stoppages, running and changing direction without losing speed, and hitting forwards lace out. But this only happened once or twice a game. I think Judd is actually pretty comparable to Danger - similarly explosive speed, contested bull who then use pace to burst to the outside, but foot skills not sublime. Danger is better overhead and as a forward too - he's just not as aesthetically pleasing as Judd.

If we're going purely on peak, I'd put GAJ well ahead of everyone, and then I'd put Dusty 2017 and DAnger 2016 slightly ahead of 2006 Judd. If by "peak" we're talking about Judd's best 5 years at WC, I'd put them clearly above Dusty's best five year H&A span, but probably not Danger's best 5 years, and miles behind GAJ's best 5 year spell.

 

[db26]

3 flags and 3 norm smith's his finals record speaks for itself haven't seen a big game finals player since Ablett at his peak .How about Petracca get to number 2 then he enters the talk.

 

[Wojcinski]

For the talk how how great the previous sides are in Geelongs time are please… Any team with Baker, Geary, King, Clarke, Farren Ray, McQualter, Gram etc featuring regularly is such a powerhouse to come up against. Absolutely terrifying haha. Peak 2017 GWS or Adelaide would smash them and I would argue a 2020 Geelong or 2019 Eagles would take them out too. People forget in 2019 we faced a peak eagles at the G and had to run through them to get Top 4. That’s coming up against a formidable GF winner.

Richmond also got the luxury of playing Geelong at the 'G and getting GWS in the GF.

 

[db26]

Melbourne 2021 would smash Richmond 2020

Give me the lottery numbers while your at it lool.

 

[db26]

Richmond also got the luxury of playing Geelong at the 'G and getting GWS in the GF.

Loool sour grapes we're has the GF been played this last 20 years weake excuses and what happened at the Gabba fluked that to.

 

[PhatBoy]

3 flags and 3 norm smith's his finals record speaks for itself haven'tseen a big game finals player .How about Petracca get to number 2 then he enters the talk since Ablett at his peak.

Petracca isn’t in the conversation but his performance last year is a worthy mention of why it is unfair to judge a player lower just because they have had teammates play well also.

 

[PhatBoy]

Loool sour grapes we're has the GF been played this last 20 years weake excuses and what happened at the Gabba fluked that to.

Yeah good point we’ve only been playing at Kardinia park for a century and people are still unable to get used to the idea

 

[db26]

West Coast Chris Judd wasn’t even the best midfielder in his team, Ben Cousins was a far better footballer than Judd during the Eagles years.

Yep agree was class.

 

[PhatBoy]

Couple of thoughts:

"Better" can mean different things in different contexts.

To begin with a basketball comparison, I watched all of Jordan's and all of Lebron's careers, and am a fan of both. If you were picking an All-Star team, or if it was the famous 92 Dream Team scrimmage, where there were stars everywhere, I think Jordan would be the most valuable addition. With good players around him, he adds more than any other player. But, if you were building a team from scratch, starting with the draft, and didn't yet have other pieces of the puzzle in place, I think Lebron is more valuable. Jordan couldn't make the Bulls a serious contender until he had the right pieces around him. Lebron on the other hand made the Finals (Grand Final series) 8 times in a row, sometimes wtih dogshit teams - he made any team an immediate contender. So I'd say Lebron and Jordan are both "better" than each other in different ways.

Same goes with footy. I would say Dusty is the most valuable finals player I've seen, but that's when he was playing in a top team surrounded by other good players. When Dusty doesn't have good players around him, he doesn't pick the team up by the scruff and drag them over the line, like Judd did, like GAJ did at GC, or even like Toby Greene did a number of times last season. So I'd draft Judd and GAJ ahead of Dusty - as a basis to build a team around - but would easily take Dusty ahead of Judd heading into a finals series. Not sure if I'd take Dusty ahead of GAJ heading into a finals series. Hard to split - sad we never got to see GAJ play finals at GC, but his finals record at Geelong was out of this world.

When it comes to Judd, I think he gets a little overrated and some rose-coloured glasses put on. The topic of this thread is "peak" Judd/GAJ/Dusty. Judd's absolute peak - 2006 - was still well behind GAJ as far as touches, clearances, goals, goal assists, and he was the cream in a dominant midfield. I think because Judd's game was so aesthetically pleasing people remember the dramatic bursts from stoppages, running and changing direction without losing speed, and hitting forwards lace out. But this only happened once or twice a game. I think Judd is actually pretty comparable to Danger - similarly explosive speed, contested bull who then use pace to burst to the outside, but foot skills not sublime. Danger is better overhead and as a forward too - he's just not as aesthetically pleasing as Judd.

If we're going purely on peak, I'd put GAJ well ahead of everyone, and then I'd put Dusty 2017 and DAnger 2016 slightly ahead of 2006 Judd. If by "peak" we're talking about Judd's best 5 years at WC, I'd put them clearly above Dusty's best five year H&A span, but probably not Danger's best 5 years, and miles behind GAJ's best 5 year spell.

Excellent analysis - Kudos. The Jordan ‘has to be better than Lebron because titles’ argument shits me as well for the exact reasons you stated.

The fact that in his mid 30s Lebron is only recently joining in the ‘we have to get the right people around him’ stage (even allowing for Bosh and Wade at Miami) for him to compete says a lot about how good he was earlier.

 

[db26]

Yeah good point we’ve only been playing at Kardinia park for a century and people are still unable to get used to the idea

Got no issues with that works for you on the park and $$$ , but we all we're the big dance is played.

 

[Wojcinski]

Loool sour grapes we're has the GF been played this last 20 years weake excuses and what happened at the Gabba fluked that to.

lol? Are you daft? I was referring to the fact that Geelong are easybeats in finals (especially at the G) learn how to comprehend before you embarrass yourself any further

 

[db26]

I think people confuse "exciting" with "good". Judd was capable of electric moments that very few if any other midfielders could match. But he wasn't doing that all game every game. I think Ablett was more consistently brilliant over 22 weeks. But Judd wasn't far behind.

By the way - a player who never gets mentioned in this conversation is Jason Akermanis. But he had plenty of electric moments himself - and also was consistently brilliant. Personally I think he is just about the most underrated great of the last 2 decades.

Yep agree had all as a midfielder and kicked goals Akermanis , always stood up in big finals and crunch games gem of a player.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Excellent analysis - Kudos. The Jordan ‘has to be better than Lebron because titles’ argument shits me as well for the exact reasons you stated.

The fact that in his mid 30s Lebron is only recently joining in the ‘we have to get the right people around him’ stage (even allowing for Bosh and Wade at Miami) for him to compete says a lot about how good he was earlier.

Yeah I think a lot of people basically rate players' careers on whether they like them or not lol.

Don't why so many people like only either Jordan OR Lebron. I think if the 2 were swapped, Jordan would have led the Heat to the title against Dirk's Mavs in 2011. On the other hand, I think there's no way Jordan would have led the Cavs to the title against the Warriors in 2016 like Lebron did (or taken the absolutely dogshit 2007 Cavs team to the Finals like Lebron did).

On BF, a lot of posters seriously underrate Danger because they don't like him. I reckon there's a fair argument to be made that he been as good or a shade better a player than Judd.

 

[Falcon3518]

Dees flogging dogs was in part because of how good Petracca was. Both dees and tigers came back from a similar margin, ~20 points.

Give me Petracca’s game any day of the week.

Yes the mid Dusty who didn’t leave the forward 50 in that game and only had 1 more possession than Fritsch did. Only real difference is Dusty did manage 10 clangers.

Take Trac out, Dees still win. We also had less time to come back from 20 points due to the shortened game time. Add 25% on Dustys stats to get an actual representation of a full time game. He would’ve had a 25ish disposal game and 5 goals. Still take Tracs game? No way.


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