WCE peak Judd was better than peak GAJ and peak Dustin Martin

[PhatBoy]

Yeah I think a lot of people basically rate players' careers on whether they like them or not lol.

Don't why so many people like only either Jordan OR Lebron. I think if the 2 were swapped, Jordan would have led the Heat to the title against Dirk's Mavs in 2011. On the other hand, I think there's no way Jordan would have led the Cavs to the title against the Warriors in 2016 like Lebron did (or taken the absolutely dogshit 2007 Cavs team to the Finals like Lebron did).

On BF, a lot of posters seriously underrate Danger because they don't like him. I reckon there's a fair argument to be made that he been as good or a shade better a player than Judd.

I totally agree. LeBron is one of the most unfairly maligned sportspeople in history. Even down to the people who will dismiss him as being good because he MIGHT not be as good as Jordan: like it’s a black mark that he’s only the second best player in planet earth’s basketball history.

You are spot on about afl players too. People construct a narrative that’s usually started by a fear of that player. Martin suffers from it too: how could a loose unit covered in Tatts with a shit haircut be taken seriously. Oh look he’s playing for a historically bad team in recent decades and he’s slightly above average so he must be overrated. cue the threat of him helping Richmond be a powerful side

Danger was the same. At Adelaide he wasn’t really a threat to anyone because Adelaide were mediocre. He goes to a perpetually strong Geelong side - and people forget we finished 10th before he arrived and went straight back to Second after he got there - and suddenly he was a threat, so this narrative about him loving himself and being a dickhead was created: yeah he’s got a strut but if you look objectively he talks remarkably humbly and even when he takes the piss out of himself and the ‘he fakes injuries narrative’ he got criticised for turning up to a presser bandaged and on crutches.

Cousins gets ignored because he was a drug addict.

Ablett terrorised every side in the comp for 4 years leading an absolute juggernaut at Geelong. So the narrative when he takes a pay rise that every man alive would take, is that he’s a money hungry grub who had no loyalty. ‘He wasted his career playing for a joke.’ If you look, he basically with no help from anyone, had a brand new team poised for finals in their fourth year and then got injured.

In it’s own way that’s just as remarkable as danger getting us back into the top four or Martin getting Richmond from the middle of the table to the top but the narrative doesn’t suit people so they ignore it.

 

[Falcon3518]

Some people on here have no idea. How in gods name can any of these players have a higher peak than dominating 7/8 finals matches in a row with BOG performances and winning 3 Norm Smith medals. You say higher peak… what higher peak could you climb lol. If Dusty played for a bulldogs we would have a soft spot and be gobbing him off. GAJ is definitely more consistently better, the question is peak, how can they get close to that peak?

Answer is nobody in the history of the AFL gets to that peak. Closest is Leigh Mathew’s.

Facts, these guys can’t handle it. They will have GAJ as the GOAT forever even if better players come along. No use trying they are closed minded.


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[Falcon3518]

St Kilda 2009-10 was better than all of the above teams IMO.

All dynasty teams would’ve beaten St Kilda, what is your point exactly?


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[PhatBoy]

Take Trac out, Dees still win. We also had less time to come back from 20 points due to the shortened game time. Add 25% on Dustys stats to get an actual representation of a full time game. He would’ve had a 25ish disposal game and 5 goals. Still take Tracs game? No way.


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I’m not getting in to a back and forth with you because it is pointless but just because the demons still win without his performance DOESNT MAKE HIS OERFORMANCE WORSE. It means his teammates played better.

It is literally that simple.

Why should any player be judged inferior because they have teammates who have played well. Why.

 

[Falcon3518]

Melbourne 2021 would smash Richmond 2020

Maybe, 2019 was our strongest team. We’d deck them. Dees would flog your 07-11 teams as you played 1v1 defence. You’d get ambushed hard and look like a deer in the headlights seeing team defence/system. If you couldn’t handle Dew, you wouldn’t be able to handle Trac, Oliver, Dusty. Not to mention Gawn smashes ottens in the ruck and the cats didn’t even have a forward line lol.


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[Falcon3518]

Excellent analysis - Kudos. The Jordan ‘has to be better than Lebron because titles’ argument shits me as well for the exact reasons you stated.

The fact that in his mid 30s Lebron is only recently joining in the ‘we have to get the right people around him’ stage (even allowing for Bosh and Wade at Miami) for him to compete says a lot about how good he was earlier.

MJ is better than Lebron, I don’t think MJ lost a finals match did he? Not a massive NBA fan but I’m pretty sure that’s the case. Titles represents skill level of you are the best player in the team and played BOG.


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[PhatBoy]

MJ is better than Lebron, I don’t think MJ lost a finals match did he? Not a massive NBA fan but I’m pretty sure that’s the case. Titles represents skill level of you are the best player in the team and played BOG.


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Didn’t lose a finals match? Are you serious?

Are you that daft that you would ignore the fact that Jordan for his 6 titles played alongside literally the next best all-round player in the competition?
If Jordan didn’t exist and you looked around the entire league at that time for the best combination of offence/defence/scoring/rebounding/passing in any single player, it was literally his own teammate Pippen.
The greatest pure rebounding forward of all time was in the side for 3 of the titles.

What sort of sports fan DOESNT analyse these things?

More to the point, what sort of sports fan makes a call like ‘it’s judged on titles’ and then DOESNT nominate Bill Russell as being better than Jordan?

Let the grown ups talk.

 

[Headless]

All dynasty teams would’ve beaten St Kilda, what is your point exactly?


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I was directly responding to my dear friend SleepingGiant, and their contentions made in the post I quoted.

 

[Falcon3518]

Richmond also got the luxury of playing Geelong at the 'G and getting GWS in the GF.

Upgrade your stadium then. It’s obviously costing you flags. Nobody wants finals to be played on that dung heap, it also costs the AFL money. I actually have a cousin that works in AFL media that went down to GMHBA and he said the facilities are atrocious for the away team and the coach has his presser in a literal shed. He also said it’s the least high tech ground and the actual ground is crap.


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[PrinceCharles]

Facts, these guys can’t handle it. They will have GAJ as the GOAT forever even if better players come along. No use trying they are closed minded.


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Says the person with 169 posts in this thread all saying the same thing.

 

[Falcon3518]

I’m not getting in to a back and forth with you because it is pointless but just because the demons still win without his performance DOESNT MAKE HIS OERFORMANCE WORSE. It means his teammates played better.

It is literally that simple.

Why should any player be judged inferior because they have teammates who have played well. Why.

Makes his performance less influential. Which imo makes his “peak” considered a little worse. You know BOG takes into account junktime goals and stuff to properly judge who was the best pure statistics don’t tell the full story. To take it too the extreme. Say two players got BOG with exactly the same stats. One team won by 100 goals the other 1 point. Which player would be the most important and thus have a better game than the other. 100 goal guy or 1 point guy?


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[Falcon3518]

Didn’t lose a finals match? Are you serious?

Are you that daft that you would ignore the fact that Jordan for his 6 titles played alongside literally the next best all-round player in the competition?
If Jordan didn’t exist and you looked around the entire league at that time for the best combination of offence/defence/scoring/rebounding/passing in any single player, it was literally his own teammate Pippen.
The greatest pure rebounding forward of all time was in the side for 3 of the titles.

What sort of sports fan DOESNT analyse these things?

More to the point, what sort of sports fan makes a call like ‘it’s judged on titles’ and then DOESNT nominate Bill Russell as being better than Jordan?

Let the grown ups talk.

Idk man, especially in America like you have mentioned they take titles and finals records into account when deciding who is better/ the GOAT.


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[Falcon3518]

Look end of the day if you think Dustys record breaking finals record is still daylight behind GAJ peak, idk what else to say. You are either biased af or genuinely have no idea what you are talking about. The bloke has done what no other player has done before, what else does he need to do? It’s impossible to meet your standards. We won’t see another 3 time Norm Smith medalist in our lifetime.


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[Falcon3518]

I was directly responding to my dear friend SleepingGiant, and their contentions made in the post I quoted.

Fair enough, I just don’t get the stronger opposition argument. We all would’ve beaten them.


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[Hollow Knight]

Judd was exceptional at what he did but Ablett was better. Way more strings to his bow.

 

[Headless]

Fair enough, I just don’t get the stronger opposition argument. We all would’ve beaten them.


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Oh, I wouldn't say that - I think it's hard to know. St Kilda easily could have nabbed a premiership or two. Very easily.

 

[PhatBoy]

Idk man, especially in America like you have mentioned they take titles and finals records into account when deciding who is better/ the GOAT.


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Yes they do but only when it suits.

Bill Russell was Boston’s franchise player for 11 NBA titles

 

[Falcon3518]

Oh, I wouldn't say that - I think it's hard to know. St Kilda easily could have nabbed a premiership or two. Very easily.

Look at their list again bottom 11 are pretty ordinary. Even the more we’ll known ones like Montagna and Dal Santo weren’t that good. Probably Riewoldt and Hayes that carried the team. Not exactly insane star power compared to the dynasty teams. I’d say the Dees would beat them too btw.


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[PhatBoy]

Look end of the day if you think Dustys record breaking finals record is still daylight behind GAJ peak, idk what else to say. You are either biased af or genuinely have no idea what you are talking about. The bloke has done what no other player has done before, what else does he need to do? It’s impossible to meet your standards. We won’t see another 3 time Norm Smith medalist in our lifetime.


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We saw two 2-time norm smith medalists in the 20 years before he won 3. With the recent trend towards basically limiting those sorts of awards to half a dozen positions on the field it’s going to happen more and more. If Melbourne won 2-3 more flags do you really think it’s that unlikely that Petracca would win 2 more?

Of the dogs came out of nowhere to win 3-4 flags in the next 8 years bontempelli would be almost odds on to claim multiple norm smiths

 

[Headless]

Look at their list again bottom 11 are pretty ordinary. Even the more we’ll known ones like Montagna and Dal Santo weren’t that good. Probably Riewoldt and Hayes that carried the team. Not exactly insane star power compared to the dynasty teams. I’d say the Dees would beat them too btw.


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St Kilda 2009-2010 was a very, very good team - IMO the best team to not win a premiership in the last couple of decades (discounting cases like Geelong 2008 and Richmond 2018, because practically the same team won in other years).

 

[Falcon3518]

Yes they do but only when it suits.

Bill Russell was Boston’s franchise player for 11 NBA titles

I think Russell has the most titles but he played in the 50s and 60s yeah? You know my opinion on past players I don’t won’t to argue it again on here.


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[Falcon3518]

We saw two 2-time norm smith medalists in the 20 years before he won 3. With the recent trend towards basically limiting those sorts of awards to half a dozen positions on the field it’s going to happen more and more. If Melbourne won 2-3 more flags do you really think it’s that unlikely that Petracca would win 2 more?

Of the dogs came out of nowhere to win 3-4 flags in the next 8 years bontempelli would be almost odds on to claim multiple norm smiths

If and buts. Dynasty teams can only win 3 max flags from history. So that means a player has to get to 3 GF, then win them, then get BOG in all 3. If a player doesn’t get a norm for 1 of those years his chances are Nil of getting 3. It’s almost impossible to get 3 like Dusty and getting 4 norms will never happen. There have been like 4 times more dual Brownlow medalists than duel norm Smith medalists. Shows you how difficult it is, it is the hardest medal to win.


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[PhatBoy]

If and buts. Dynasty teams can only win 3 max flags from history. So that means a player has to get to 3 GF, then win them, then get BOG in all 3. If a player doesn’t get a norm for 1 of those years his chances are Nil of getting 3. It’s almost impossible to get 3 like Dusty and getting 4 norms will never happen. There have been like 4 times more dual Brownlow medalists than duel norm Smith medalists. Shows you how difficult it is, it is the hardest medal to win.


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Ifs and buts - like your prediction that no one else will do it, you mean?

Also, when saying ‘there’s been way more multiple Brownlow medalists than norm smith medalists’ it might be worth researching when the norm smith medal was started


The Brownlow existed 55 years before the norm smith medal.

 

[H00t]

Makes his performance less influential. Which imo makes his “peak” considered a little worse. You know BOG takes into account junktime goals and stuff to properly judge who was the best pure statistics don’t tell the full story. To take it too the extreme. Say two players got BOG with exactly the same stats. One team won by 100 goals the other 1 point. Which player would be the most important and thus have a better game than the other. 100 goal guy or 1 point guy?


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Where are these many games that Martin has risen up and lifted the tigers over the line in a final by a point?

He hasn’t because the games haven’t been close so by your own admission you’d have to not rate Dusty’s games very highly. Especially his first two Norm Smith’s when tigers crushed an imploding crows and then a giants team that may as well not have shown up.

Whereas GAJ did claw his team over the line in the 2007 PF.

It would be crazy not to acknowledge Dusty’s 3 Norm Smiths. But that’s the argument you are making.

And if two players got the exact same stats the player in the closest game would be more memorable and likely a better game due to tougher opposition. But you do know GAJ’s stats are significantly better than Dusty’s right?

 

[Falcon3518]

Ifs and buts - like your prediction that no one else will do it, you mean?

Also, when saying ‘there’s been way more multiple Brownlow medalists than norm smith medalists’ it might be worth researching when the norm smith medal was started


The Brownlow existed 55 years before the norm smith medal.

Since 1979 when the NS medal was introduced there has been one 3 time NS medalist. Will you be alive in another 43 years? My prediction is fine to make based in the average. 4 people have multiple norms since then how many dual Brownlow medalists have there been?


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