Bumped Welcome to Collingwood, Darcy Moore (new posts start at #761)

[Knightmare]

I would only bring Cox in IF we are out of Contention for Finals.

Agree Moore is a Permant CHF/FF but Can go in Ruck in case of Injury during a Game when he is around 23

I expect most will agree with your stance on Cox. And it's going to take him time, quicker than expected as he is getting on.

It's highly against the odds Cox gets any senior opportunities in season one, but then again Mike Pyke played 8 games in his first season as a rugby convert from Canada off Sydney's rookie list in 2009 before going on to play 18 games in 2010. If Pyke can do it I'm ok with Cox at 211.4cm and developing quicker than expected on a Collingwood team that is rebuilding for the future to do similar if Grundy/Witts miss games. He isn't going to be great right away, but the interest for me anyway is what he can become in the future with enough tools to eventually become a factor and a potential very good ruckman if he puts in the work.

 

[soreplums]

If one or the other misses I would introduce Mason Cox into the ruck.

If there is an urgency to win - say it's a final or a must win game I'd go without a second option completely and just wing it in the form of a Goldsack to play those 10% minutes or whatever time Grundy/Witts require to sufficiently get through the game.

22-23 is about the right age to give guys ruck minutes at AFL level. Even then I wouldn't be playing Moore through the ruck other than in the scenario we decided to sub one of Grundy or Witts out of a game. He's a full time forward for me otherwise.

Jesse White?

 

[Knightmare]

Jesse White?

White is not good enough for me and he should never have been recruited and should not have lasted past his first season with Collingwood.

Last season White kicked 20 goals from 18 games and only took the 59 marks. That's terrible for a guy who plays mostly forward. Particularly for a guy in his late 20s. When you play that role substantially better is required, particularly for a guy at that stage in his career. Even as a relief ruckman 1.5+ goals a game and 5+ marks per game I'd consider the requirement to play that role successfully and if you're batting at less than that rate as an established player in your late 20s, other options need to be pursued.

In our situation now I see us as being in a position where we're not nearly good enough to win now, so it's all about getting as many games as quickly as possible into the most talent youth at the club on the condition that they are players who project to be better pros than those they would be playing in front of. So if a younger player has a potentially higher ceiling than an older guy who isn't performing to the required level, I'd be playing them instead.

With Cox it's unclear how good he can become, but as a backup I'd rather see him have a shot than a guy I already know isn't nearly good enough. Cox may not be as good, but he could equally be substantially better and possibly so good even that he is a reason why you may win a game, and given that I'd rather give him the chance to reach his ceiling, what that will be.

 

[EGsolomon]

As much as im stoked with the long term prospect, I can't remember the last time a key forward had that big of an impact in their first season. I would assume Franklin + Rough had a fair first season, but back then I was more young and just wanted to play footy and wasn't a massive follower like I am now.

In the short term (this season), I would be surprised if his output is better than White's.

I totally agree with your thinking on his output. But if Moores output in anything near whites then I think Buck's will let youth be served.

 

[Apex36]

White is not good enough for me and he should never have been recruited and should not have lasted past his first season with Collingwood.

Last season White kicked 20 goals from 18 games and only took the 59 marks. That's terrible for a guy who plays mostly forward. Particularly for a guy in his late 20s. When you play that role substantially better is required, particularly for a guy at that stage in his career. Even as a relief ruckman 1.5+ goals a game and 5+ marks per game I'd consider the requirement to play that role successfully and if you're batting at less than that rate as an established player in your late 20s, other options need to be pursued.

In our situation now I see us as being in a position where we're not nearly good enough to win now, so it's all about getting as many games as quickly as possible into the most talent youth at the club on the condition that they are players who project to be better pros than those they would be playing in front of. So if a younger player has a potentially higher ceiling than an older guy who isn't performing to the required level, I'd be playing them instead.

With Cox it's unclear how good he can become, but as a backup I'd rather see him have a shot than a guy I already know isn't nearly good enough. Cox may not be as good, but he could equally be substantially better and possibly so good even that he is a reason why you may win a game, and given that I'd rather give him the chance to reach his ceiling, what that will be.

Leigh Brown was reasonably successful in the same role while not even getting close to those kind of numbers. You're judging White based on him playing as a second forward, when that's clearly not the role he was recruited for.

I'm aware that part of the reason Brown was so successful at the pies was the physicality he brought to the table (which White lacks), and I'm also aware that Brown could be sent to defence on the odd occasion, but the numbers you're requiring from White seem a bit unreasonable given he and Brown put up very similar numbers. If Reid had played all last year, and White had still put through 20 goals and had 100+ hitouts (probably would have had more since Witts and Grundy wouldn't have played tandem early in the year), would you still be judging him as harshly?

I'm actually interested to see if White can be successful in the role he was actually recruited for before writing him off, particularly since he still has 2 years left on his contract.

 

[TradeDraft]

White is not good enough for me and he should never have been recruited and should not have lasted past his first season with Collingwood.

Last season White kicked 20 goals from 18 games and only took the 59 marks. That's terrible for a guy who plays mostly forward. Particularly for a guy in his late 20s. When you play that role substantially better is required, particularly for a guy at that stage in his career. Even as a relief ruckman 1.5+ goals a game and 5+ marks per game I'd consider the requirement to play that role successfully and if you're batting at less than that rate as an established player in your late 20s, other options need to be pursued.

In our situation now I see us as being in a position where we're not nearly good enough to win now, so it's all about getting as many games as quickly as possible into the most talent youth at the club on the condition that they are players who project to be better pros than those they would be playing in front of. So if a younger player has a potentially higher ceiling than an older guy who isn't performing to the required level, I'd be playing them instead.

With Cox it's unclear how good he can become, but as a backup I'd rather see him have a shot than a guy I already know isn't nearly good enough. Cox may not be as good, but he could equally be substantially better and possibly so good even that he is a reason why you may win a game, and given that I'd rather give him the chance to reach his ceiling, what that will be.

He was never going after 1 Season. Recuriters could be Sacked over that Kind of Mistake.

I wait and see what he does this year before I pass Judgment as we have some Recycled Players that came good in there 2nd Season with us

 

[PepperFace]

Leigh Brown was reasonably successful in the same role while not even getting close to those kind of numbers. You're judging White based on him playing as a second forward, when that's clearly not the role he was recruited for.

I'm aware that part of the reason Brown was so successful at the pies was the physicality he brought to the table (which White lacks), and I'm also aware that Brown could be sent to defence on the odd occasion, but the numbers you're requiring from White seem a bit unreasonable given he and Brown put up very similar numbers. If Reid had played all last year, and White had still put through 20 goals and had 100+ hitouts (probably would have had more since Witts and Grundy wouldn't have played tandem early in the year), would you still be judging him as harshly?

I'm actually interested to see if White can be successful in the role he was actually recruited for before writing him off, particularly since he still has 2 years left on his contract.

White got a 3 year contract? I must put my name up for trade next trade period to see how many years I get offered

 

[Knightmare]

Leigh Brown was reasonably successful in the same role while not even getting close to those kind of numbers. You're judging White based on him playing as a second forward, when that's clearly not the role he was recruited for.

I'm aware that part of the reason Brown was so successful at the pies was the physicality he brought to the table (which White lacks), and I'm also aware that Brown could be sent to defence on the odd occasion, but the numbers you're requiring from White seem a bit unreasonable given he and Brown put up very similar numbers. If Reid had played all last year, and White had still put through 20 goals and had 100+ hitouts (probably would have had more since Witts and Grundy wouldn't have played tandem early in the year), would you still be judging him as harshly?

I'm actually interested to see if White can be successful in the role he was actually recruited for before writing him off, particularly since he still has 2 years left on his contract.

Leigh Brown was less than ideal, but because of his intangibles (tackling and physical presence as that on field enforcer) he was sufficient on a winning team with the other pieces in place.

If you take the intangibles away from Brown his numbers are not sufficiently good and would be deemed on most teams as at best worthwhile as depth.

He was never going after 1 Season. Recuriters could be Sacked over that Kind of Mistake.

I wait and see what he does this year before I pass Judgment as we have some Recycled Players that came good in there 2nd Season with us

We identify junior talent better than anyone in the competition - and with Hine and Rendell this should be no surprise with both top 3 recruiters in the country. We continue to under-perform regarding opposition talent identification with only a part timer looking after that whereas many other clubs have a full timer who specialises in that area of recruiting.

 

[mattys123]

Darcy was just on SEN , said his toe injury is coming along well, chance to play later in the NAB Cup he thinks.

- Said that Reid has "been invaluable to me" over the last few weeks for him as they've both been in rehab, both close to returning.

- Also talked about his Dad and how he helps him at times, and gets annoying at others.

- said this is the longest pre season he's ever done, of course, and talked about the work/life balance around the club.

- Schwarz asked him about Bucks as a coach, "I got heaps out of our interactions".

- He can bench press 95kgs now after walking in only pressing about 60 when he walked in.

The segment was about healthy eating and living, sponsored segment, but he spoke well as always.

Sure SEN will put it up later on.

Darcy in the studio (from SEN twitter);

 

[PepperFace]

Darcy was just on SEN , said his toe injury is coming along well, chance to play later in the NAB Cup he thinks.

- Said that Reid has "been invaluable to me" over the last few weeks for him as they've both been in rehab, both close to returning.

- Also talked about his Dad and how he helps him at times, and gets annoying at others.

- said this is the longest pre season he's ever done, of course, and talked about the work/life balance around the club.

- Schwarz asked him about Bucks as a coach, "I got heaps out of our interactions".

- He can bench press 95kgs now after walking in only pressing about 60 when he walked in.

The segment was about healthy eating and living, sponsored segment, but he spoke well as always.

Sure SEN will put it up later on.

Just out of interest what would a guy like cloke press? 150?

 

[mattys123]

Just out of interest what would a guy like cloke press? 150?

That question was asked actually (about our biggest lifter, Schwarz guessed it was Cloke), but Moore said that seeing as they do different things in smaller groups he doesn't really know what Cloke lifts.

 

[MagpieBat]

The interview in question, just uploaded by SEN:

 

[Wooljay]

Anyone who listens to that interview on SEN and doesn't come away thinking, Jesus Christ we got a bargain at pick 9 are muppets.

This kid is articulate, level headed, and sounds focused as all hell.

Will absolutely play 200 games for us, i feel it in my black and white bones.

 

[PepperFace]

Anyone who listens to that interview on SEN and doesn't come away thinking, Jesus Christ we got a bargain at pick 9 are muppets.

This kid is articulate, level headed, and sounds focused as all hell.

Will absolutely play 200 games for us, i feel it in my black and white bones.

I'm still pissed off the dogs bid on him with their first round pick regardless

 

[Hagla]

I'm still pissed off the dogs bid on him with their first round pick regardless

The fact that they did bid on him doesn't annoy me as much as the fact that they didn't actually have the pick by the time the draft rolled around. Obviously if we didn't match it they would have had to use it on him but something doesn't sit right about it anyway. It's like playing the same card twice in a game of cards.

 

[Apex36]

The interview in question, just uploaded by SEN:

Do you have a web link for it? The soundcloud link isnt showing on my phone for some odd reason...

Edit: nvm just found it on their site

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

The fact that they did bid on him doesn't annoy me as much as the fact that they didn't actually have the pick by the time the draft rolled around. Obviously if we didn't match it they would have had to use it on him but something doesn't sit right about it anyway. It's like playing the same card twice in a game of cards.

I don't see how it's a problem - They wanted Darcy Moore with the pick, and if we hadn't have matched, they'd have kept the pick and used it on Moore.

Given that Moore became father-son locked to Collingwood, they should still be free to check out other options that would be available to them. What if Moore was the only guy potentially on the table that they rated at that pick? You can't make them hold onto it just because they expressed interest in a player that subsequently was taken off the table.

 

[Ketchup]

I'm still pissed off the dogs bid on him with their first round pick regardless

Eh, Im happy with pick 9 going for Moore. Im also more happy with the shear amount of laughs that I got out of that the Bulldogs traded their best player (by a long way) and gave up a top 10 pick for a kid who hasn't kicked 10 goals, gave him a million a year, as well as paying Griffens salary at a rival at the bottom of the ladder in the process. Yet some of the supporters don't think it's a bad trade. For mine, it is arguably the worst trade in history.

 

[loki04]

I don't see how it's a problem - They wanted Darcy Moore with the pick, and if we hadn't have matched, they'd have kept the pick and used it on Moore.

Given that Moore became father-son locked to Collingwood, they should still be free to check out other options that would be available to them. What if Moore was the only guy potentially on the table that they rated at that pick? You can't make them hold onto it just because they expressed interest in a player that subsequently was taken off the table.

They knew we would take him all they did was take a very minor calculated risk to force our hand.

If they moved bidding to draft day you can guarantee the dogs don't have that pick, Boyd was in their sights the whole time.

 

[Laurie Holden]

Was a fantastic interview. Lots to like about the kid.

 

[Hagla]

I don't see how it's a problem - They wanted Darcy Moore with the pick, and if we hadn't have matched, they'd have kept the pick and used it on Moore.

Given that Moore became father-son locked to Collingwood, they should still be free to check out other options that would be available to them. What if Moore was the only guy potentially on the table that they rated at that pick? You can't make them hold onto it just because they expressed interest in a player that subsequently was taken off the table.

Why not? Their is no guarantee anyone will be available at your respective pick unless you have pick 1. It should be the same as any other draft pick and be done on the day, if they call him out we interject at the time. It's not like we can say "hey we want Petracca in the draft but if he's not going to be there then we want to trade our pick out" before the draft comes around. That would be draft tampering. That's the whole idea of the draft, you take what's left.

The current system effectively allows for free swings, it's not fair and in a casino it wouldn't be allowed. It's more like showing your card once, knowing that it would force another player to change strategy and then playing it later to collect.

 

[Apex36]

It's like playing the same card twice in a game of cards.

A more apt analogy:

Not letting them trade their pick would be like bidding on a 2 storey house but losing the auction, then being told by the bank the loan you were approved for isn't valid for the awesome split level house with indoor pool you found afterwards...

 

[Hagla]

A more apt analogy:

Not letting them trade their pick would be like bidding on a 2 storey house but losing the auction, then being told by the bank the loan you were approved for isn't valid for the awesome split level house with indoor pool you found afterwards...

I see your point. I guess you can look at it from both sides. I'm not really sure what the best solution would be, in the live draft would be nice but it would stop other trades from happening.

Ok I have an outrageous solution that could just work but sounds unethical haha. What if trades happened after the draft and the kids who were drafted were still tradable in the trade period that followed the draft? The draft would have to be held in private so as not to stress the youngsters about being thrown around like pawns, hence they would only ever know where they end up at the end of trade week and never know where they were originally drafted?

This would mean that everyone enters the draft with their original picks, father son bidding would be live and trades could still be made, so if you missed out on someone's father son that you bid on you could just trade the kid you took instead (if you didn't want him).

 

[ace andy]

We paid what he was worth. Therefore system worked. If you wanted him for a second round pick you must want a new system so we can rip off other teams?

 

[TradeDraft]

Well Reid and Moore are Simmlar types and Good to hear his Strength has come on a lot