What Carlton could have been..

[JuddsABlue]

i hate bringing it up, but Kennedy did kick about 100 goals in a single game against us one day.... most carlton supporters I know went 'ouch' around that time.... Not saying that Judd was a bad pickup, but saying that Kennedy has done nothing is very silly....

I didnt say hed done nothing, but people give him huuuugggee wraps because he was part of the Judd trade

He hasnt done anything that would make a Carlton fan think oh shit I wish we had him over Judd

Hes had great games and played really well, but nothing close to what Judd has done for us

 

[laminex]

But how many wouldn't they have?

You do know when the cap came right??

If a gun was pointed at yr head and you were told if you say something stupid again it will fire how long do you think you could last??

 

[laminex]

It evens out if you consider how many your mob handed us by choking.

To be fair, they choke against everyone not just us .


When you think about a * should put against every flag won against Collingwood. the poor dumb bastards just let the other teams win.

 

[Freomaniac]

Look, I'm trying to defend you guys here, stopping throwing more petrol on the bloody fire will you.....

Our drafting this century with first round picks isn't great when you look back...

Power, Walsh, Cooney, Ray, Griffen, Williams, Higgins, Everitt, Grant, Cordy....

Two really talented players (one injured), a couple serviceable (both always injured) one ok to average and the rest delisted or unproven....

Fair enough.

I would imagine what freo would off been with all those trades in the early years.

 

[Monkey King]

It's easy in hindsight to say they lost out on the Judd trade, but if you look at it from the point of view of the dire straits Carlton was in prior to 2008, ultimately it was understandable, and justifiable, in that context.

Not really though. Judd outperformed both the guys on the other side of this trade ledger for the 5th year in a row. Judd was always going to retire before these guys, so using now as a start point is useless; nonetheless, JK and Masten are going to have to put in some serious performances before they even catch up to the onfield value Judd's already given the Blues. Offield it's doubtful they will ever measure up.

 

[Black Diamond]

Just imagine what Richmond coud've been right now:

B: Newman Grimes Birchall
HB: Deledio Rance Conca
C: A.Swallow Martin S.Selwood
HF: Fyfe Pavlich Franklin
F: Stokes Riewoldt LeCras
Foll: Maric Cotchin S.Mitchell
Int: Barlow Foley Tuck S.Johnson

What I take from this is despite drafting well from 1999-2006, you still finish 15th in 2007 and draft Cotchin?

 

[Doss]

Not really though. Judd outperformed both the guys on the other side of this trade ledger for the 5th year in a row. Judd was always going to retire before these guys, so using now as a start point is useless; nonetheless, JK and Masten are going to have to put in some serious performances before they even catch up to the onfield value Judd's already given the Blues. Offield it's doubtful they will ever measure up.

The point is, though (and I know it probably sounds convoluted), which would be more use now? Masten and Kennedy (obviously Notte was a dud), or Judd? I would argue that, if all fit and in form, your midfield would still be okay now without Judd. Murphy, Simpson, Gibbs, Carazzo, Robinson, Yarran, Masten, even the likes of McLean- that is still a pretty good midfield.

The attack could really do with Kennedy though, especially post-Fevola. And just on Fev, I did not blame Carlton one bit for getting rid of Fev- he was a disruptive influence and your club uis almost certainly a better place without him.

I guess what I mean is, in 2008 Judd was essential to Carlton and played a massive role in digging you out of the hole. The problem is, though, getting him created holes elsewhere, and so far those holes are yet to be adaquately filled.

It was beneficial to Carlton in 2008 to get Judd, and for a few years after, but now I think the pendulum has swung and the downsides of the trade for Carlton are beginning to be felt more.

Please note, I'm not trolling you guys and certainly not criticising Carlton's decision to get him. Just that ultimately, it appears as though the downsides that came from the trade have hit before the upsides (which ultimately would be to win a flag) fully bore fruit.

 

[Monkey King]

The point is, though (and I know it probably sounds convoluted), which would be more use now?

In reality, rather than the all fit and firing concept, the answer is a clear no for mine. For five straight years Judd has proven of more use than the other two. There is nothing to say that's going to stop next year either, or even the year after that, or that it will continue for that matter. But as it stands right now, my answer is unequivocal; Judd is way more valuable to Carlton.

The only time I've reconsidered the Judd/JK was last season when Kreuzer was struggling to recover from his ACL and JK was tearing it up with WCE. Just for a moment I thought, what if we'd given away pick one and kept JK. But things in football can change very quickly, which is why I said this list needs to play itself out before we can really judge this stuff with any certainty.

It was beneficial to Carlton in 2008 to get Judd, and for a few years after, but now I think the pendulum has swung and the downsides of the trade for Carlton are beginning to be felt more.

But that was always going to happen. One day Judd will be retired and these guys will still be playing, unlikely it was ever going to be any other way. Evaluating the trade from now as a start point is meaningless given the start point itself might not even exist as it does if not for Judd's impact at the Blues.

Still, I've yet to see the downside of the trade manifest itself. Judd is still outperforming the comparison and the forgotten man of this deal, Dennis Armfield, has been one of Carlton's most improved players this season.

And not to fear, feel free to think out loud. Although I don't agree with you, your points are clearly not a mindless troll and worth exploring

 

[Doss]

Yeah, fair enough. Ultimately, whether Carlton end up winning a premiership while Judd is still playing or not, perhaps his biggest legacy of all to Carlton will be to get them back to being a competitive unit, which in turn has gradually resulted in an improved off-field position.

Considering how far in the mire they were in 2007, that in itself is reason enough for Carlton fans to be thankful they got him.

 

[Tzatziki_Man]

Who knows, if Carlton didn't win the 1995 premiership then maybe they would have gotten a higher draft pick which would have resulted in two premierships.

 

[DrEvil]

Hindsight is an extraordinary thing and this could be done for all clubs. However I think Carlton's seems like an exceptional circumstance.

Imagine if carlton:

1) Didn't trade for Judd
2) Didn't sack Fev
3) Picked Cotchin instead of Kruezer
4) Didn't trade Jacobs

They could have had:

1) A forward line with Fev and Kennedy
2) A midfield of Cotchin, Murphy, Gibbs, Carrazo, Simpson and pretty sure Dangerfield or Masten
3) Jacobs (leading hit-outs to adv) tapping it to that midfield

Are there any other clubs that in hindsight could have been this good?

What carlton could've bee:

What carlton is:

 

[Thistle]

This Cotchin over Kreuzer debate is typical hindsight bull****.

If you ever read "the draft" it is clear that every club had Kreuzer inked in as their number one choice. A ruckman with the athletic traits and talent Kruze showed don't come around every year, maybe every three. Each year the draft usually provides a few mids who have the ability to become elite therefore Kruze was easily the right choice by Carlton. Injuries have obviously affected Kruze's development but that is almost impossible to predict.

 

[Costanza_]

Yes - any of them. Demonstration:

Imagine how good Sydney would be if:

1) Picked Tippett ahead of Daniel O'Keefe
2) Didn't trade Dempster for a pick that got Brett Meredith
3) Picked Mundy instead of Josh Willoughby
4) Picked Rioli instead of Veszpremi
5) Picked Darling instead of Lamb

They'd fix their weakness, the forward line, and turn it into the best in the league with Reid/Tippett/Rioli/Darling
They'd have a midfield with a top-shelf run with player in Dempster and some extra outside flair in Mundy
Their defence would be unchanged as the top ranked in the league

Good old 20/20 hindsight?

Our first rounds picks have been pathetic

At least we've pulled some gems from the second and third rounds, but if we'd gotten a few of the above mentioned picks right we'd be beastly.

 

[scomac]

He would have had a lot more midfield time and wouldn't have relied on Judd to do everythin and expect the cheap kicks

You would take Gibbs in a Heartbeat,shouldnt you be more concerned about celebrating Adelaide playing finals than thinly veiled trolls on the main board.
PS Gibbs was from Adelaide.

 

[Big Red is back]

Hindsight is an extraordinary thing and this could be done for all clubs. However I think Carlton's seems like an exceptional circumstance.

Imagine if carlton:

1) Didn't trade for Judd
2) Didn't sack Fev
3) Picked Cotchin instead of Kruezer
4) Didn't trade Jacobs

They could have had:

1) A forward line with Fev and Kennedy
2) A midfield of Cotchin, Murphy, Gibbs, Carrazo, Simpson and pretty sure Dangerfield or Masten
3) Jacobs (leading hit-outs to adv) tapping it to that midfield

Are there any other clubs that in hindsight could have been this good?

Look kruz ahead of cotchin is a disaster that's a fact but we move on

 

[Monkey King]

What carlton could've bee:

LOL. What Carlton could have been if RDB didn't come to the club?

Yep! About right ... 5 less premiership cups than we have currently.

Good point

 

[Monkey King]

PS Gibbs was from Adelaide.

Yes. Carlton took Gibbs from Adelaide ... more specifically, the Adelaide Crows

 

[Leg End]

Pointless thread is pointless

As said - hindsight is 20/20

Also Judd has added more ...
I don't think we would be at the same level without him at the club.

True.
You now have more chicken wings than KFC and more gouges than Greg "the Hammer" Valentine.

 

[Roby]

Imagine if we'd picked Franklin instead of Tambling......

There would have been 5,123,645 less posts on Big Footy!!!!!!

Surely this didn't happen. Nice imagination.

 

[DrEvil]

LOL. What Carlton could have been if RDB didn't come to the club?

Yep! About right ... 5 less premiership cups than we have currently.

Good point

What you could have been if you hadn't cheated.

 

[Fadge]

We could have won the a premiership already

OR we could be doing a Melbourne - a club with not leadership, no professional attitude, the most senior role models at the club being the likes of Fev..... so I say thank god we did those things. Kreuzer could still be anything, his career will surpass Jacobs easily and sure in hindsight who wouldn't want Cotchin - absolute beast of a player.

There is leadership and professionalism at Carlton?

 

[DrEvil]

There is leadership and professionalism at Carlton?

Juddy's visy deal was clearly leadership in player management.

 

[1990crow]

Was actually thinking this the other day. Everyone here is right in saying that it is easy in hindsight but if Carlton had done a few things differently it would've been interesting for sure.

1. Don't trade for Judd. Keep Kennedy and pick 3. (Use on Dangerfield - unlikely they would've but for fun lets keep him here).
2. Don't trade for Warnock - keeps Jacobs in the no.1 position following 2010 and he stays.
3. Pick Talia ahead of Lucas
4. Picked Cotchin over Kreuzer

FF: Betts Kennedy Hampson
HF: Garlett Waite Walker
C: Gibbs Dangerfield Simpson
HB: Yarran Talia Scotland
FB: Henderson Jamison Armfield
R: Jacobs Cotchin Murphy
B: McLean Carrazzo Robinson Duigan

 

[Monkey King]

What you could have been if you hadn't cheated.

Awww diddums. We've got 16 legit flags.

Sorry about that, but you'll have to play catch up the old fashioned way

 

[Murraj1966]

Imagine St Kilda took Judd (Ball) and Bartel (X Clarke) in 2001 and Brent Stanton (R Clarke) in 2003?

Every club has them.