Woof
Team Captain
How about we give the guy who put his body on the line like he did the benefit of the doubt… the bloke bled (a lot) for the club. Let’s at least hear it out before we get too defensive.
What They're Saying - The Bulldogs Media Thread - Part 4
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Norm De Guerre
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40x 24 mtrs.
We finally have the key as to why we let Lachie Hunter go. He's never kicked the ball that high or far in his life.
_Cerberus_
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Not overly surprised about Picken taking action. Felt like it could be a possibility given he was forced to retire and was still enduring symptoms even then. Sad that years later he is still suffering the effects.
The part that stands out to me, IF true. Is the club doctors not being open with him, and withholding some info. If that is true, then it is truly negligence on their part. I would be surprised if they are allowed to continue on, given they put a players well being at serious risk. Will be a long process that may drag on for some time.
The part that stands out to me, IF true. Is the club doctors not being open with him, and withholding some info. If that is true, then it is truly negligence on their part. I would be surprised if they are allowed to continue on, given they put a players well being at serious risk. Will be a long process that may drag on for some time.
I imagine it should also be fairly easy to prove/disprove much of it based on medical records too. This is not the first and won't be the last of this type of case.
Horrible for the players who are living with the effects of concussion, whatever the background to it.
Liam Picken, 2018: I'm encouraged by the progress I have made and I'm very lucky to have been looked after by a great team of medical experts."
Is this an attempt to discredit him? Why?
Part of the case he's bringing is that he was kept in the dark about his cognitive test results. He may well have been unaware of his actual medical progress compared to what he could only perceive.
Also, from the article, "further to that, he did not necessarily understand the full extent of his injuries or his symptoms".
ArNcHiSe
Team Captain
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Absolute clown take by you. Concussions are serious issue, just look at the NFL or wrestling. The AFL and clubs have absolutely been lagging behind the rest of the world on this front.
I feel like we need to do the right thing by Liam and come to an appropriate settlement. If our process in rehabilitating concussion injuries is flawed we should look at doing that at arms length, with independent doctors outside of footy. Liam was a big part of 2016, we need to look after him.
- Mar 24, 2018
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Surely Zimmer would be out the door if he’s found to have been negligent. Bit of a dark cloud hanging over him until this case is heard which can’t be good for club morale. From a completely selfish point of view, Picken could definitely have picked a better time to start this.
If they genuinely didn’t make him aware he was repeatedly failing tests then that’s really disappointing. I do feel like there’s got to be some responsibility on the individual though. Tim English could be in the same boat right now. Do you ditch your dream and fantastic salary, or do you just carry on and hope for the best. Lots of unknowns here obviously but Picken was surely aware of the risks involved.
If they genuinely didn’t make him aware he was repeatedly failing tests then that’s really disappointing. I do feel like there’s got to be some responsibility on the individual though. Tim English could be in the same boat right now. Do you ditch your dream and fantastic salary, or do you just carry on and hope for the best. Lots of unknowns here obviously but Picken was surely aware of the risks involved.
Angak
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What are you talking about ?
In 2014 our concussions protocols and understanding of the issue was still in infancy.
The AFL only introduced the mandatory 14day no play policy just 3 years ago. Prior to that it was common for players suffer severe concussions and play 6-7 days later and in some cases players were even given the OK to return to field on the same day.
Snarls Barkley
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It was very common for players to return to the ground when they were clearly concussed. It was really only in cases that they had to go to hospital when they didn't come back on. Jordan Lewis came back on in the game that Harbrow nearly decapitated him.
Think there will be a lot of players who played in that 2000s/early 2010s who take clubs and the league to court and to be honest, think its fair enough. I don't know enough about the NFL court cases but you'd think it'd be very similar.
Angak
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There was a doctor in the NFL who was first to discover CTE. When he published a report into it and went to the NFL they did everything in their power to cover it up so it never saw the light of day.
Angak
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I disagree with your posts all the time. This is no different.
It’s a bit of a nightmare for the doctors. They’ll likely have to notify their professional body etc.
It’s not the same thing, but the reason Doc Reid took a “self-imposed break from footy” and was not suspended during the Essendon drugs saga was that it was a negotiated outcome - an adverse finding might have impacted upon his right to practice.
Very sad either way. Picko seemed to still love the club (and this might just be something he sees as not being personal). Things will be frosty for a while most likely regardless of how culpable the club was.
It’s not the same thing, but the reason Doc Reid took a “self-imposed break from footy” and was not suspended during the Essendon drugs saga was that it was a negotiated outcome - an adverse finding might have impacted upon his right to practice.
Very sad either way. Picko seemed to still love the club (and this might just be something he sees as not being personal). Things will be frosty for a while most likely regardless of how culpable the club was.
- Sep 7, 2015
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I wish Liam the best of luck. No amount of money will be adequate compensation for the suffering he will have to endure, however I still hope he is awarded reasonable damages. I'm not taking this as a personal attack on our club, just like I wouldn't take it as a personal attack if one of my colleagues was suing my employer after being hurt at work. I don't think any less of the club and I'm sure we managed it the same way any club did. This will be the first of many of these civil actions, which will be required to draw the line about what duty of care clubs have in regard to concussion. It's going to be ugly and it will affect every club, not just ours. I don't think any less of Liam for going down this path, I think most people would do the same; I still love him and the club just as much as I did yesterday.
It's not a reason to feel any less excited about the season ahead. Bevo will steer the ship and it won't be on anyone's mind when that first ball is bounced.
It's not a reason to feel any less excited about the season ahead. Bevo will steer the ship and it won't be on anyone's mind when that first ball is bounced.
Some Idiot
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There was talk about a billion dollar class action lawsuit against the AFL just recently.
dogwatch
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There has been talk for decades of the impact of concussions but the best research has probably been in the last 10 years or so. Maybe Dannnnnnnnnn is the best qualified here to comment on that.
There are degrees of awareness of course so while everyone knew there was some cumulative risk most of the players might not have been aware of the insidious nature of it revealed by more recent research. And, as has been alleged, Picken might not have been fully aware of the extent of damage he'd already suffered and the great risk to him in playing on for a few more seasons. I'm sure the legal people on both sides will pick over all these points.
We do need to be aware that most of this is not Picken speaking candidly. All the words today and most of them going forward will be from Picken's legal team who will be framing all their statements in the best way possible to win a settlement. Picken's job is to NOT front the press, at least until it's all been dealt with in court. His legal team will do the talking. Don't assume Zimmerman is a negligent, scheming, bad guy until it has been proved in court. That's simply the confrontational way they have to pitch these things.
I can't speak with any knowledge of Picken's personal situation other than the sort of stuff I've read here the last few years. From that it appears he's been doing it tough and will probably have a lifetime of that ahead of him. He may not like the idea of suing his old club (where he is a legend, a life member and has many mates) but for the sake of his own finances and that of his family it's the sensible thing to do.
The comparison with English (and certain other current players) is a fascinating one. There's no doubt that the love of the game, the aspirations of personal and premiership glory and the big salaries would be a strong incentive for any player to carry on, even one who has had concussions. They would be hoping to beat the odds or perhaps would just rather not think about the awfulness of what it could all mean.
I can see a day coming when, out of an abundance of legal caution, clubs will get players who have had multiple concussions to sign documents before every season to confirm that they have received full details of their medical assessments, have seen an independent neurologist (at the club's expense), have been made fully aware of the risks of continuing with their playing career and agree to accept all risk and indemnify the club and the AFL etc etc.
As we have been saying for a while, there will probably be a slew of cases like this over the coming years. Picko's was always likely to be one because we all saw him suffer some really bad on-field concussions. Whatever happens I wish him all the best.
Dannnnnnnnnn
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I'm hesitant to speak too much to this particular issue. It is very sensitive and it is difficult to take a rational stance without discrediting either Liam or the club, and I don't have enough information (and never will) to do either of those things. There are things I would like to say about the details in the article but the risk of them being construed as criticisms of either party is just too high. Liam deserves his day in court or wherever it ends up and the less this can play out publicly in the meantime the better for all parties.
With that said, I can speak a little to concussion research. It is a very broad area, though, so I can't speak entirely off the cuff or you'll have me here forever (for the Simpsons fans: "Yarrr, he'll be dancin' for hours!"). To what you've said above, players would have been aware that there were risks involved, but even ten years ago the awareness of what these "subclinical" (i.e. not causing any significant problems immediately) knocks might potentially cause or contribute to later in life was severely lacking. Despite what the media will have you think, though, this remains a contentious topic and we have yet to conclusively link these knocks to CTE or ongoing issues. But - if the club truly did withhold test results, that is absolutely problematic, whether it was now, 10 years ago, or 30 years ago.
One other note: it's important to realise that the way CTE and related issues are portrayed in the media are sensationalised and often not actually supported by current best evidence.
As someone that does have a little bit of knowledge in this area, I encourage everybody to (1) be sensitive here, because it is a very difficult and touchy subject with real distress and anxiety attached for many people and their families; and (2) above all, PLEASE do not take on everything the media/internet says as fact, and repeat it as if you know what you're talking about. That seems harsh, but there is a great deal of risk involved here with disseminating the wrong information. If you don't have a reputable source or background knowledge on the matter, please make that clear in your conversations on the topic.
This is a very, very, very difficult and complicated field, and a really contentious scientific/medical debate right now. There is a lot more to it than what is published in the Herald Sun or posted on social media and it's important to recognise that.
If anybody does have direct questions about concussion or brain injuries, I am happy to be tagged. Some I won't be able to answer, some I will refuse to answer for other reasons, but generally I will do all I can to help share the knowledge I have.
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Thanks for letting me know, gonna be a rough night after hearing this news
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No, it's much more complicated than that. If the club, doctors or AFL (by way of it's rules) were negligent in preventing further concussion issues or withholding important medical information to Liam, then he deserves and will likely receive a financial settlement.
He, like all others understood he would get hurt playing footy, but this is a lot more nuanced than "If you don’t want to get hurt, don’t play contact sport". Long term brain damage that may have been able to have been avoided, is a massive issue.
- Sep 7, 2015
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