What's going on with Carlton's list

[fishardansin]

I'm not sure what all the "concern" for Carlton's list is. Personally they are a strong KPF pack crasher away from being a top 4 side and premiership contender. Clearly Ratten caught caught up in the razzle dazzle of fast and skillful outside players and picked an unbalanced team that did well against weak opponents early in the year, Collingwood played like a bottom 6 side in the first game. Then they were found out but the bombers and unfortunately them injuries struck hard and they had nearly no choice in regards to team set up with selection. By the end of the year I think they got that right.

Next year I think you will see Malthouse playing at least 4 of Judd, Carrazzo, Robinson, Curnow, Ellard and Bell, maybe all 6, so there will be a lot more muscle around the ball and the skills of players of players like Murphy, Gibbs, Garlet and Yarran will shine even more. If Judd isn't the inside man and can play a more of an outside role to go with his clearance work he will extend his career and do more damage. On top of that Murphy isn't a strong bodied inside mid but if allowed to play almost exclusively on the outside he is very strong for that role and his run and ball use will be able to cut up a game and leave oppositions scratching their head if they tag him or Judd. I've always felt that Gibbs has been given the wrong roles by Ratten. I feel he's too soft to be a damaging mid but his offensive talents are wasted down back. His ball use is amazing and very good overhead. He'd do the most damage playing as an extra mid playing outside and forward of the play starting on the forward flank. I know I'd feel very nervous with the ball in his hands 80m from Carlton's goals.

If Carlton gets Waite on the park most weeks next year and can pick up a strong bodied forward to be number 1 target they will have a damaging forward line. Maybe Hampson can be that man. As shit as he is if given the role of just hitting the ball and pack hard he can still bring Betts and Garlet into the game more. It also allows Waite to play more of a hit up role. Those two playing roles like that allow Walker to have a genuine third defender who he'll be able to cut up, in bursts, with either speed, run or high marking.

Laidler missed most of last year but picking up him and Duigan the year before instantly turned their backline from a weakness to a strength. Watson will be a fantastic player and if Hurley settles forward, I'm starting to doubt that now though, I really look forward to their battles in the big Carlton v Essendon clashes. Henderson was a bust as a KPF but can do a good job down back and Jamison is a star if he gets his body right. Personally:

Duigan Jamison Laidler
Yarran Henderson Touhy
Simpson Judd Murphy
Gibbs Waite Walker
Betts Hampson Garlet
Kruezer Carrazo Robinson
Ellard Scotland Bell Curnow/McLean

is a team that given a fair crack with injuries that could build a structure and game plan to beat anyone.

 

[Blue Dangerfield]

This thread is an obvious troll but anyway.

The one thing we will have got out of 2012 is an extra 7-15 games into our depth players. Far frtom the rabble the OP suggests.

 

[chunkylover53]

I'm not sure what all the "concern" for Carlton's list is. Personally they are a strong KPF pack crasher away from being a top 4 side and premiership contender. Clearly Ratten caught caught up in the razzle dazzle of fast and skillful outside players and picked an unbalanced team that did well against weak opponents early in the year, Collingwood played like a bottom 6 side in the first game. Then they were found out but the bombers and unfortunately them injuries struck hard and they had nearly no choice in regards to team set up with selection. By the end of the year I think they got that right.

Next year I think you will see Malthouse playing at least 4 of Judd, Carrazzo, Robinson, Curnow, Ellard and Bell, maybe all 6, so there will be a lot more muscle around the ball and the skills of players of players like Murphy, Gibbs, Garlet and Yarran will shine even more. If Judd isn't the inside man and can play a more of an outside role to go with his clearance work he will extend his career and do more damage. On top of that Murphy isn't a strong bodied inside mid but if allowed to play almost exclusively on the outside he is very strong for that role and his run and ball use will be able to cut up a game and leave oppositions scratching their head if they tag him or Judd. I've always felt that Gibbs has been given the wrong roles by Ratten. I feel he's too soft to be a damaging mid but his offensive talents are wasted down back. His ball use is amazing and very good overhead. He'd do the most damage playing as an extra mid playing outside and forward of the play starting on the forward flank. I know I'd feel very nervous with the ball in his hands 80m from Carlton's goals.

If Carlton gets Waite on the park most weeks next year and can pick up a strong bodied forward to be number 1 target they will have a damaging forward line. Maybe Hampson can be that man. As shit as he is if given the role of just hitting the ball and pack hard he can still bring Betts and Garlet into the game more. It also allows Waite to play more of a hit up role. Those two playing roles like that allow Walker to have a genuine third defender who he'll be able to cut up, in bursts, with either speed, run or high marking.

Laidler missed most of last year but picking up him and Duigan the year before instantly turned their backline from a weakness to a strength. Watson will be a fantastic player and if Hurley settles forward, I'm starting to doubt that now though, I really look forward to their battles in the big Carlton v Essendon clashes. Henderson was a bust as a KPF but can do a good job down back and Jamison is a star if he gets his body right. Personally:

Duigan Jamison Laidler
Yarran Henderson Touhy
Simpson Judd Murphy
Gibbs Waite Walker
Betts Hampson Garlet
Kruezer Carrazo Robinson
Ellard Scotland Bell Curnow/McLean

is a team that given a fair crack with injuries that could build a structure and game plan to beat anyone.

A sensible post? Really man? What are you doing here?

 

[Essendonia]

Essendon and Carlton have been in their rebuild cycle during the same period: 2005 onwards. Before that you were still playing finals with many 2000 players running around and we were in the Pagan phase of topping up to avoid insolvency. Considering we have been in the same cycle for 7 years now I think finishing above you for 5 of those years is pretty relevant in determining future output.

Our 2012 season was complete crap due to injuries and bad form. Our 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011 season were very much around the mark of where we should have been. Essendon has been slaughtered in their finals appearances during those seasons, ones they only limped into.

It seems "upside" on this website correlates to "might be good, but we have very little evidence to suggest that will ever happen".

Well, if what you say is true, then we have taken longer to set up our tilt. You have seemingly timed your run to peak now, and we are looking at 2014+. You have Judd and Scotland ageing, and still haven't seen the best from Jamison, Waite, Thornton, and are pinning hopes on Murphy, Kreuzer and Gibbs (only one of which has shown potency to be consistently good) and a rag-tag forward line.

Whoop-de-doo, you have been better than Essendon recently. You haven't been able to consistently defeat top-8 sides, if at all, so what is there to cheer about, really?

 

[Monkey King]

... they are a strong KPF pack crasher away ... Maybe Hampson can be that man.

... Henderson was a bust as a KPF ...

Overall a well measured post with a good understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of our list. Just a couple of points for me in relation to these bits ...

1. Casboult is our great hope for 2013. Strong mark and pack crasher, good size for a third tall. Shit kick!

2. I don't get why Hendo was a bust as a KPF. It baffles me tbh. As a 20yo CHF he kicked 25 goals from 19 games in his first year at a new club. A better result than most 20yo CHF's. Then he had off-season hip surgery, Ratts brought him back way too early and he was dropped after a shit game; then due to necessity he was brought back as a defender, had a couple of average games before playing himself back into form. IMO would have done the same as a forward too. Last year he looked very good when played up forward for a quarter and a bit, before injury dragged him back to defense. Personally, I'm an advocate for Hendo making the move back to CHF permanently.

 

[fishardansin]

Fair enough but I don't agree. He just doesn't dominate a contest as much. He's tall enough to compete in marking contests and is a good enough footy player to hold down CHB at this level but will never be that guy that crashes around your forwardline. I think Watson is going to be a very good player and his reputation on here suffers because of Collingwood trolling and after so many years of having close to no KPP talent many carlton supporters just can't pick it in an 18 year old. I think long term Watson as FB, Jamison as CHB and Laidler as 3rd tall is the best set up.

I totally forgot Casboult. I think you might be right. He's a big man and could very well do the job. Let me change my prefered Carlton line up:

Duigan Jamison Laidler
Yarran Watson Touhy
Simpson Judd Murphy
Gibbs Waite Walker
Betts Casboult Hampson
Kruezer Carrazo Robinson
Ellard Scotland Garlet Bell

 

[Ambrosia]

Overall a well measured post with a good understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of our list. Just a couple of points for me in relation to these bits ...

1. Casboult is our great hope for 2013. Strong mark and pack crasher, good size for a third tall. Shit kick!

2. I don't get why Hendo was a bust as a KPF. It baffles me tbh. As a 20yo CHF he kicked 25 goals from 19 games in his first year at a new club. A better result than most 20yo CHF's. Then he had off-season hip surgery, Ratts brought him back way too early and he was dropped after a shit game; then due to necessity he was brought back as a defender, had a couple of average games before playing himself back into form. IMO would have done the same as a forward too. Last year he looked very good when played up forward for a quarter and a bit, before injury dragged him back to defense. Personally, I'm an advocate for Hendo making the move back to CHF permanently.

I rate Henderson highly but from what I've seen his hands aren't good enough to be as good forward as he is back.

 

[Monkey King]

I rate Henderson highly but from what I've seen his hands aren't good enough to be as good forward as he is back.

Which is interesting to hear, because as a defender he often goes for marks where others might not. FWIW in the last match he played this season he took a couple of strong marks in his half-quarter up forward, one a ripping mark leaping into the pack. In his first year he had a bit of trouble holding them, but he was only 20yo back then.

 

[Ambrosia]

Which is interesting to hear, because as a defender he often goes for marks where others might not. FWIW in the last match he played this season he took a couple of strong marks in his half-quarter up forward, one a ripping mark leaping into the pack. In his first year he had a bit of trouble holding them, but he was only 20yo back then.

I obviously haven't seen enough if him.

 

[bombermick]

I find it interesting they're been so quiet on the trading front. Others above them (WCE, Syd and Hawks) are very active, having already or will soon fill gaps.

Going to be hard to bridge the gap and get a flag if they don't made some bold moves.

 

[blueboy25]

I find it interesting they're been so quiet on the trading front. Others above them (WCE, Syd and Hawks) are very active, having already or will soon fill gaps.

Going to be hard to bridge the gap and get a flag if they don't made some bold moves.

West Coast - Wellingham wanted to go home to Perth otherwise he would stay at collingwood, not sure what you wanted Carlton to of here?
Hawks - Lake may not last the 2 years on his contract and he only wanted to go to hawthorn.
Sydney - Tippett - Can't match what sydney are offering and he didn't want to come to melbourne.

Suggest a bold move that Carlton can look at.

 

[forwardflanker]

West Coast - Wellingham wanted to go home to Perth otherwise he would stay at collingwood, not sure what you wanted Carlton to of here?
Hawks - Lake may not last the 2 years on his contract and he only wanted to go to hawthorn.
Sydney - Tippett - Can't match what sydney are offering and he didn't want to come to melbourne.

Suggest a bold move that Carlton can look at.

Well it's a bit defeatist not doing anything. Your list isn't good enough to compete at the moment and you just want to let the sides above you get better?

 

[Silvagnis]

Well it's a bit defeatist not doing anything. Your list isn't good enough to compete at the moment and you just want to let the sides above you get better?

Have Collingwood weakened their list?

I'd love to see the argument you and your fellow Carlton tragics would use if we had lost Wellingham and signed a 30 year old as a free agent.

Collingwood's midfield just got weaker, so we should beat you again next year.

 

[blueboy25]

Well it's a bit defeatist not doing anything. Your list isn't good enough to compete at the moment and you just want to let the sides above you get better?

You don't have to trade just for the sake of trading.

Suggest a bold move that Carlton could make.

 

[blueboy25]

You would be pretty annoyed right now if you were a Carlton supporter. 2nd straight year where they have failed to address the weaknesses in their list, whilst competitors and the benchmark teams are active in the trade period. At the same time, the coach, who should always be important to list management decisions is on a book tour.

Just glad we don't have a key player or two walk out every year like some clubs.

 

[blueboy25]

At the same time, the coach, who should always be important to list management decisions is on a book tour.

You do realise Mick has been at Etihad for trade week over the last two days working with the Carlton list management team.

 

[forwardflanker]

You do realise Mick has been at Etihad for trade week over the last two days working with the Carlton list management team.

what have they been doing? playing xbox?

 

[blueboy25]

what have they been doing? playing xbox?

Which out of contract player should they be having a crack at then? Not just any old scrubber but someone who will address these weaknesses that you believe we have.

 

[Monkey King]

Well it's a bit defeatist not doing anything. Your list isn't good enough to compete at the moment and you just want to let the sides above you get better?

Every list is in a different part of their cycle. From this season to next, Carlton has plenty of potential improvement from within this list; they also have and a good chance to keep setting up the future from the draft. I don't really see the need to go reaching out to do anything if the deal isn't right. Nothing defeatist about that at all. I wouldn't have wanted a piece of most of the trades that have gone down so far, so I don't really see what you think they've done wrong. I'm guessing most of this stems from your very poor understanding of Carlton's list.

As for the Hawks and Collingwood improving their lists for next season in this trade period, well that remains to be seen. Collingwood have perhaps had their position for next season weakened in losing Wellers, while the Hawks need Lake to recapture some old form and stay injury free. You're being very 1 + 1 = 3 here.

 

[forwardflanker]

Which out of contract player should they be having a crack at then? Not just any old scrubber but someone who will address these weaknesses that you believe we have.

Henry Slattery on free agency would be the ideal replacement for Bryce Gibbs imo.

 

[forwardflanker]

Every list is in a different part of their cycle. From this season to next, Carlton has plenty of potential improvement from within this list; they also have and a good chance to keep setting up the future from the draft. I don't really see the need to go reaching out to do anything if the deal isn't right. Nothing defeatist about that at all. I wouldn't have wanted a piece of most of the trades that have gone down so far, so I don't really see what you think they've done wrong. I'm guessing most of this stems from your very poor understanding of Carlton's list.

As for the Hawks and Collingwood improving their lists for next season in this trade period, well that remains to be seen. Collingwood have perhaps had their position for next season weakened in losing Wellers, while the Hawks need Lake to recapture some old form and stay injury free. You're being very 1 + 1 = 3 here.

See this is where there is a difference of opinion. Carlton supporters think they are still at the early-middle stage of their cycle. Most reasonable impartial supporters believe this Carlton side don't have much more to offer in terms of improvement. My op sought to address this using the best and fairest results as an example. Something is missing down at the Blues. Whether it be recruiting or development, your high draft picks just haven't made it. Guys like Gibbs, Kreuzer and Walker have been around long enough to be classified as failures imo. The reason you had such a poor year isn't on the back of those senior players I mentioned in the OP. It's on the failure of the younger high draft picks to have any impact when the club needed them the most. Something down at Carlton is rotten and until it's found I can't see any see them having any kind of success.

 

[Fadge]

Have Collingwood weakened their list?

I'd love to see the argument you and your fellow Carlton tragics would use if we had lost Wellingham and signed a 30 year old as a free agent.

Collingwood's midfield just got weaker, so we should beat you again next year.

Wellingham would be the 4th best midfielder at Carlton. He was number 8 or 9 at Collingwood; Ball a handy replacement in 2013.

Happy for Carlton to place their full focus on beating us next year, we'll focus on the top 4 again.

 

[Fadge]

Just glad we don't have a key player or two walk out every year like some clubs.

Salary cap pressures are the domain of only the top teams.

 

[Monkey King]

See this is where there is a difference of opinion. Carlton supporters think they are still at the early-middle stage of their cycle. Most reasonable impartial supporters believe this Carlton side don't have much more to offer in terms of improvement. My op sought to address this using the best and fairest results as an example.

You're right. This is where we differ and there have been a few more reasoned and impartial nuetral posters than yourself in this thread that differ with you also; fishardansin for instance has a far more reasoned and insightful approach than you. Some have tried to point out the weakness of your list assessment and of your use of the top 7 from this years B&F results as being anyting meaningful. To frame your nonsense approach, let's take a glimpse at our club's respective top 10's from last year ...

Marc Murphy - 25
Chris Judd - 29
Bryce Gibbs - 23
Heath Scotland - 32
Kade Simpson - 28
Andrew Walker - 26
Mitch Robinson - 23
Eddie Betts - 25
Michael Jamison - 26
Chris Yarran - 21

Scott Pendlebury - 24
Dane Swan - 28
Travis Cloke - 25
Luke Ball - 28
Leon Davis - 31
Dale Thomas - 25
Ben Reid - 23
Harry O'Brien - 25
Jarryd Blair - 22
Chris Tarrant - 32

Carlton have fewer 28 & over and similar players under 25yo. You guys played in a GF and Carlton we just 3pts off a Preliminary Final. You see, you have a flawed method of assessment on your hands in using the top 7 B&F results in a year where Carlton were arguably impacted more by injury than any other club in the league. So please, you'll have to excuse me for being smarter than this and seeing past the gaping holes in your approach.

Guys like Gibbs, Kreuzer and Walker have been around long enough to be classified as failures imo.

How poor is this. Krezuer, a 23yo ruckman who's been battling to recover from an ACL injury; suddenly classified a failure? Gibbs, a 23yo, who admittedly had a poor season but has been top 3 in something like our last 4 B&F's is now a failure? Walker, a guy who kicked 56 goals last year in his first full season in 5 years; now a failure? I think the failure here is clear ... it's a failure of insight and common sense on your part.

 

[blueboy25]

Wellingham would be the 4th best midfielder at Carlton. He was number 8 or 9 at Collingwood; Ball a handy replacement in 2013.

Happy for Carlton to place their full focus on beating us next year, we'll focus on the top 4 again.

Can you name the 8 players in front of Wellingham in the midfield?

I have pendles, swan, beams and possibly ball.