When will the AFL and Vic clubs abolish VFL premierships as AFL achievements?

[Bomberman86]

ay sad.

however to actually address his post....



Maybe Mr Zaharakis announced he would like to help Essendon win its 17th AFL/VFL flag, absolutely.

It will still be only their 3rd AFL flag, whichever way precious Victorians would like to spin it.

Its all in the spelling you see. When you type "Australian" into dictionary.com none of the options presented are spelt "Victorian". I really think the Vic education system is letting them down.

Think you're the only chap getting precious mate 

 

[afc9798]

I have no problem with VFL clubs counting premierships. As the founders, if you like, of the AFL, they get certain rights and it is largely accepted that the. VFL was the premier league in Australia.

That said, the discrimination in the father/son rule is not a fair arrangement. Should be the same for all clubs in the spirit of fairness and equality.

I love the VFL heritage of the competition and I think it adds to the leagues credibility. To question this is stupid, but for gods sake tidy up the rest of he equality issues. Too many inequities in the way the comp is structured, such as he ridiculous leg ups given to the two new expansion clubs.

 

[Blues_Man]

lol U actually think that the only change was a letter

just embarrassing

West Coast being given a whole state to draft players from their in their inception was embarrassing...handing out concessions so franchise interstate sides could compete in the big league was a bit of a joke ..and still is.

You entered the bggest league in the country ..you should be thankful you were allowed entry ..and also given an unfair advantage to help you along the way .

 

[Ron The Bear]

Nope but they are not as impressive as an AFL flag won under salary/draft rules in a professional era you would agree?

In the same way that turf great Poseidon's 1906 Melbourne Cup was run 50+ lengths slower than handy stayer Kensei's 1987 Cup, yes.

 

[Portsmeff]

Official All-Australian teams 1953 to 1988 were under the auspices of the national controlling body, the Australian National Football Council of which the VFL, SANFL and WAFL amongst other state competitions were just constituent members. Players were chosen from all state competitions.

The AFL (VFL) from 1982 to 1990 named their own "teams of the year".

After 1990 when the Australian National Football Council was subsumed by the AFL and the AFL took its place as the national controlling body of Australian Football, the All-Australian team was only selected from AFL players.

what I want to know is how the **** the Victorians can just self appoint themselves as the national controlling body of Australian football, by simply changing their name from VFL to AFL, and completely ignoring and not even remotely acknowledging the tradition, history and existence of WAFL and SANFL clubs (which happens to this day). Its so wrong on all counts. The VFL needed "interstate teams" to bring in money to prop up their league that was in piles of debt, they then change their name to AFL and for some reason this means automatic control over Aussie rules football in the whole country. Its complete bullshit. The AFL is just so wrong in how it came to being, but my club and us supporters wanted to play in the best competition in the land which so happens to be the Victorian based AFL.

 

[Max zero]

West Coast being given a whole state to draft players from their in their inception was embarrassing...handing out concessions so franchise interstate sides could compete in the big league was a bit of a joke ..and still is.

You entered the bggest league in the country ..you should be thankful you were allowed entry ..and also given an unfair advantage to help you along the way .

So completely and utterly wrong. Go on look up the "Birth of the West coast Eagles" videos on youtube and you might learn something.

WCE was anything but blessed on it's inception.

 

[Ron The Bear]

The VFL needed "interstate teams" to bring in money to prop up their league that was in piles of debt

Then why the rush to join? It may have been broke, but the VFL had prestige.

You know what they say, history is written by the winners. Very difficult to incorporate records of SANFL and WAFL clubs into AFL history when those clubs continue to operate to this day in separate competitions, and when no AFL club bar Port ever competed against them.

 

[greennick]

It's even more obvious that the AFL and the VFL are the same thing since nothing changed in 1990 but the name of the competition. The argument that the AFL and VFL are different entity is mostly driven by those who support teams that have no traditions or history. It's pretty pointless really.

It is comments like this that makes supporters of the newer entrants to the league want the VFL premierships abolished to another league. We have history and traditions, the just aren't as old.

Anyway, what traditions does Essendon have that most other clubs don't have?? You've got a special song? A special dance or something? Some kind of ritualistic branding of new recruits??

 

[Onetonylockett]

Should we all go back to zero because gws are coming in? The vfl expanded to incorporate your teams, it wasn't a brand new competition hence the disproportionate number of Victorian teams.

The competition isn't changing its name because GWS are coming in it still consists of the whole of Australia.

I think the AFL is unique that it includes the whole of Australia and should rightly only recognise premierships within the AFL competition.

This isn't to devalue the VFL days they still have their place in history. But really the competition has come a long way since the VFL and i think it is time to move forward.

 

[greennick]

The eagles celebrated 25 years in the competition this year. Should they only be celebrating 22 years as their first 3 were as part of the VFL?

No, this year we celebrated 25 years as a club. Founded in 1986 to enter the VFL in 1987.

 

[greennick]

West Coast being given a whole state to draft players from their in their inception was embarrassing...handing out concessions so franchise interstate sides could compete in the big league was a bit of a joke ..and still is.

You entered the bggest league in the country ..you should be thankful you were allowed entry ..and also given an unfair advantage to help you along the way .

This is so wrong it isn't funny. The VFL clubs did everything in their power to make us not succeed. However, were too stupid to realise how the AFL was going to work with the draft that they accidentally gifted us the keys to success. Plus, they were far too poor to have proper recruiters in WA, so never got any of the good kids, they could only draft players once they had already dominated for many years. I am pretty sure they did most of their WA recruiting from the newspapers.

Here is a good post on it for you to ponder:

A WA state side?

In 1986 the WA State of Origin side played Victoria in July.

Of the 22 in that side, the following players were on the Eagles list at the start of 1987:

Geoff Miles, Shane Ellis, Dean Laidley, Ross Glendinning, Peter Davidson, Phil Narkle, Andrew MacNish, Laurie Keene, Dwayne Lamb, Colin Waterson. Thats 10.

The 12 players who werent on our list were Brad Hardie, Rod Lester-Smith, Leon Baker, Gary Buckenara, Peter Sartori, Peter Wilson, Brian Peake, Maurice Rioli, Michael Mitchell, Wayne Blackwell, Paul Harding, Mark Bairstow.

In other words the Eagles got the fringe players left after the VFL teams took the cream.

Of those 10 players, precisely one played in a Premiership for West Coast (Dwayne Lamb). 2 of the players who went to Victoria were subsequently traded back to West Coast (in normal trade deals) and both played in premiership sides (Wilson 92, 94 & Harding 92).

The following West Australians (off the top of my head) were playing for other VFL sides in 1987:

Jim Krakouer, Phil Krakouer, Mike Richardson, Michael Christian, Craig Starcevich, John Ironmonger, Wayne Henwood, Craig Holden, Simon Beasley, Phil Cronan, Andrew Purser, Murray Rance, Warren Dean, Earl Spalding, Alan Johnson, Steve Turner, Nicky Winmar, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Ken Judge, Ken Hunter, Richard Dennis etc

So apart from those 22 and the 12 from our SOO side of 86 (thats 34 players by the way) West Coasts initial list of 37 was a state side

In case some arent across history, the Eagles commenced with a list of 37 players v existing VFL sides which had 52. It is true that we had first choice of WAFL players at the end of 1986 but this was only after the other sides had delayed the entry of the Eagles so that players including Wilson, Sartori, Dennis, Winmar, Bairstow, Mitchell, Spalding, Christian, Starcevich and Dean, were first signed by VFL teams before the Eagles were granted a licence. So we got the best 37 players from the WAFL after the best 10 from 1986 were already signed up by Vic clubs. Given that 10 players from WA would be a good number in the annual draft, the balance were essentially the leftovers, late round picks if you like.

At the end of 1987, we did not participate in the draft but instead again got unrestricted access to the WAFL. The same WAFL that in the previous season had 47 players taken from it i.e. there wasnt much left.

At the end of 1988, the Eagles got 5 priority picks (again WAFL only) and then took place in a draft that was compromised in that all the other clubs could only take 1 player each from the WAFL (huge concession )

In 1989, we were down to 2 pre-draft selections (compare this with Brisbane's 6 and Sydneys 4). Again, all teams were then restricted to one WAFL player, this resulted in the unusual situation of 6 of the first 9 picks being from WA. West Coast with its normal first round pick at 4 (based on finsihing 4th last in 1988) got Matera. Then players such as Brad Rowe, Mark Brayshaw, Stephen Edgar, Brad Tunbridge, Dale Kickett, Ben Allan, Gavin Rose, Peter Cransberg & Dennis Repacholi were picked up before West Coast got Tony Evans (64), Brett Heady (92), Dean Kemp (117).... So every club passed on those 3. No concession at all.

1990, West Coast got 2 pre-draft picks, again, Sydney got 6 and Brisbane 5.

The Eagles pre-draft picks and the concessions on WAFL picks (one per club) were to compensate for the Eagles having a smaller list than other clubs (15 players less) and to allow that list to be lifted up over a 5 year period to limit damage that would be inflicted on the WAFL if they had just allowed 50 in year one + unlimited drafts thereafter. It wasnt a concession as such, it was a drip system to allow us to build our list to the same size as other clubs over an extended period and limit WAFL damage. The Eagles last pre-draft pick was in 1991. Remember, these picks werent the number 1 pick in Australia but rather the best player in WA from a comp that had been decimated - and has never recovered.

The Eagles skill/luck in its first 5 years was that the predatory behaviour pre West Coast of VFL clubs and the delay in its introduction in 1986, forced them to take on a ton of unproven kids. This was extended over a 5 year period by the list size restriction which was dealt with by given us priority access to a couple of WAFL players each year for 4 years. Basically, we were forced into a situation of picking up the best kids in WA over a 4 year period which just happened to coincide with the best WA Under 18 side in history. We inadvertently stumbled on the recipe for building a good side - draft as many talented kids as possible in a short time frame. We were assisted in this by the abject amateurism of VFL sides re the draft at that stage that saw them overlook some talented kids. I mean 3 guys got drafted ahead of Matera and every club overlooked Kemp & Heady all in the one draft.

West Coast of the early 90's was a great side because it drafted lots of kids and came up with the formula that works in the draft era.

We were nowhere near gifted a state side. A state side was the 35+ gun WA players running around for other sides in 1987.

I mean imagine is we had started with a real state side:

Leon Baker, Maurice Rioli, Gary Buckenara, Phil Krakouer, Jim Krakouer, Nicky Winmar, Brad Hardie, Simon Beasley, Earl Spalding, Peter Sartori, Andrew Purser, Ken Hunter, Wayne Blackwell, Mark Bairstow, Rod Lester-Smith, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Michael Christian, Michael Mitchell, etc

Then you would have had something to whinge about!

 

[Portsmeff]

Then why the rush to join? It may have been broke, but the VFL had prestige.

You know what they say, history is written by the winners. Very difficult to incorporate records of SANFL and WAFL clubs into AFL history when those clubs continue to operate to this day in separate competitions, and when no AFL club bar Port ever competed against them.

thats very true, Im just having a whinge that the AFL is not a national league's arseh*le. Its just the VFL with some teams from around the country chucked in, which is why we (South Australians) get sick of this completely irrelevant Victorian history rammed down our throats. I couldn't care less about Collingwoods rivalry with carlton, or whoever wins the Browlow, or what happened in the 1964 VFL grand final, its just boring Victorian stuff to me. I only care about who plays Port.
Unfortunately Victoria has the larger population compared to SA and WA, so the VFL was always the best league in the land. Its just a bit sad how this AFL (which is now the controlling body of football in the whole country) shows no acknowledgement at all, of SANFL and WAFL clubs

 

[Bennett.]

 

[Dumpstar]

This wouldn't even be a thread if it was someone playing for any other club.

 

[greennick]

Then why the rush to join? It may have been broke, but the VFL had prestige.

You know what they say, history is written by the winners. Very difficult to incorporate records of SANFL and WAFL clubs into AFL history when those clubs continue to operate to this day in separate competitions, and when no AFL club bar Port ever competed against them.

He's not talking about incorporating their records into AFL history. He was talking about better recognition of WAFL and SANFL history in the history of Australian Rules (commonly incorrectly called AFL history).

And yeah, we all should have sat down and talked to the SANFL and other leagues and come to a common approach of a separate breakaway league with 6 VFL clubs, 2-3 WA ones, 2 from SA, Sydney and 1 from Qld. Then add another NSW and Qld club later on. I don't think it was well thought out and I think most can recognise that.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

If it's the same league why isn't the all Australian team made up of players from the WAFL and SANFL like it used to be?

Because the players in those leagues are rubbish. If they were in the best 700 let alone best 22 in the country they would be in the AFL.

 

[Corrosion]

Damn, and I thought we already listed the team of the century......

Oh well, will be interesting to see the first team of the century in 2089. I'll be eagerly listening from my grave.

 

[Spectore]

Premierships should only count from whenever the salary cap was introduced. I'm not sure what year that was though.

 

[Chewy]

Here's an idea for all you WA and SA whingers: if you don't like our national competition, then piss off back to your state leagues. Nobody is holding a gun to your heads and forcing you to barrack for the Eagles, Dockers, Crows or Power. YOUR teams joined OUR comp. FACT. So if you don't like it and if you're "sick to death of the Victorian bias" then stop ya sooking and just support your local leagues. Simple.

 

[arsene wenger1]

If you look in the a league record books, do Perth glory count their premiershis from the nsl, no. But if you look up the nsl records you will then see all their premierships. Point is noone is taking their premierships away, just put it in a different record book

 

[The Octopus]

If you look in the a league record books, do Perth glory count their premiershis from the nsl, no. But if you look up the nsl records you will then see all their premierships. Point is noone is taking their premierships away, just put it in a different record book

You can all spend the rest of your afl supporting years worrying about this but it is pointless and futile. All VFL records and flags are AFL and will always be treated as so. It is the same comp. Why push shit up hill. Boring. VFL is now the AFL. You may not like it but it will never change.

 

[arsene wenger1]

1 afl premiership for hawthorn, can't have something that never existed, that's a fact that can't be argued against.

 

[The Speaker]

Here's an idea for all you WA and SA whingers: if you don't like our national competition, then piss off back to your state leagues. Nobody is holding a gun to your heads and forcing you to barrack for the Eagles, Dockers, Crows or Power. YOUR teams joined OUR comp. FACT. So if you don't like it and if you're "sick to death of the Victorian bias" then stop ya sooking and just support your local leagues. Simple.

You may lack logic at times, but no-one can ever accuse you of being dispassionate.

 

[Lord Nicholson]

1 afl premiership for hawthorn, can't have something that never existed, that's a fact that can't be argued against.

Try again.

 

[Chewy]

Some of you guys remind me of the zombies in Dawn Of The Dead, clustered together, banging your fists and heads against the wall, dribbling on yourselves and gnashing your teeth. You have no real purpose, but you go through the motions anyway. Is it habit? Is it out of sense of "Kick a Vic" tribalism or victim mentality?

Why do any of you care that Essendon, Carlton or Collingwood have 15-16 premierships apiece? I can't believe this is the main motivation for you wanting to restart the AFL at Year Zero. My club Hawthorn joined the comp in 1925 and were basically an amateur club up until the 1950's. Carl/Coll/Ess won the majority of their flags before this time. Do you think I care about the number of flags they've won? I just laugh at those imbeciles who boast about the number of premierships their club won when they weren't even alive to experience it. It's like someone bragging about all the hot ladies their grandpa bedded back in his prime, as though they were notches on their own bedpost.

Why go on banging your heads against the wall on this issue? It is plain as the day that it isn't going to change. The AFL and Victorian clubs are never going to budge on this. So why keep on crying about it? What's there to he gained by it all?

When Essendon morons brag to me about their 16 flags, I honestly just smile inwardly and think to myself, "Only four in my lifetime, you peanut". I suggest you do the same and keep your own score from when your club joined the AFL ranks. Just don't expect everyone else to comply. Each to their own. That's what makes our code great. Such a wide variety of opinions and experiences and viewpoints.

Let the Geelong fans count their VFA flags and the Port Magoie fans count their SANFL flags if it makes them happy. Live and let live!