Mr MysteryGuest
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that's an oversimplification both ways
Which team out of Adelaide, North and Hawthorn has the better youth?
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Caligo
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Agreed, but it is the basic argument in a nutshell (from my biased perspective).
How is it you can't grasp the argument in this thread made by Adelaide supporters including yourself?
Strapping Young Lad
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Meanwhile, Newcombe and Day amongst the AFLPA mvp noms.
Well, this is not a surprise along with Sicily.
So, Will Day this year, when he went into the centre bounces, Hawthorn won the clearance 54 more times than their opposition; this is the seventh highest ever recorded for a player in a season. (I'd like to know who the top 6 are).
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That’s a crazy statistic.
DanielLaneDC
Debutant
Thread was started at the beginning of the 2021 season. Using Jan 1st as the measuring point, these were the U22 players in each club that season:
Adelaide (26 total)
Youth Games Played: 251/506 - 49.6%
Youth Goals Kicked: 106/230 - 46.1%
Youth Brownlow: 2/51 - 3.9%
Hawthorn (25 total)
Youth Games Played: 219/506 - 43.28%
Youth Goals Kicked: 125/239 - 52.3%
Youth Brownlow: 7/53 - 13.2%
North Melbourne (26 total)
Youth Games Played: 271/506 - 53.6%
Youth Goals Kicked: 162/210 - 77.1%
Youth Brownlow: 17/39 - 43.6%
In 2022, these were the additions and subtractions:
Adelaide (-2+4 = 28 total)
Youth Games Played: 297/506 - 58.7%
Youth Goals Kicked: 140/249 - 56.2%
Youth Brownlow: 5/51 - 9.8%
Hawthorn (-4+8 = 29 total)
Youth Games Played: 301/506 - 59.5%
Youth Goals Kicked: 139/262 - 53.1%
Youth Brownlow: 21/45 - 46.7%
North Melbourne (-2+6 = 30 total)
Youth Games Played: 321/506 - 63.4%
Youth Goals Kicked: 145/193 - 75.1%
Youth Brownlow: 23/31 - 74.2%
And 2023:
Adelaide (-1+5 = 32 total)
Youth Games Played: 320/525 - 61.0%
Youth Goals Kicked: 181/319 - 56.7%
Youth Brownlow: TBD
Hawthorn (-3+8 = 34 total)
Youth Games Played: 358/524 - 68.3%
Youth Goals Kicked: 147/237 - 62.0%
Youth Brownlow: TBD
North Melbourne (-5+6 = 31 total)
Youth Games Played: 323/527 - 61.3%
Youth Goals Kicked: 216/243 - 88.9%
Youth Brownlow: TBD
These aren't necessarily the best numbers to use for this, but I think we can see from these numbers and lists a few stories as a whole to describe how these three clubs have gone the past three seasons with regards to their youth.
2021 belongs to North Melbourne in terms of dependence on and contribution from their youth. Hawthorn and Adelaide both relying more on their non-youth to contribute, but Hawthorn clearly in front of Adelaide in terms of contribution from their youth.
2022 shows a big jump for all three clubs in dependence and contribution from their youth. Hawthorn the biggest jump in terms of games and brownlow votes, but partly because they were behind Adelaide and North Melbourne respectively for these in 2021. North Melbourne now with a clear dominance from their youth for quality and quantity, whereas Hawthorn and Adelaide are close behind on quantity but rely more than North Melbourne on quality from their non-youth.
2023 shows more stability for North Melbourne and Adelaide in terms of games but a continued increased reliance on youth for Hawthorn. Constrast for Adelaide and North Melbourne is that while I just said both are more stable from 2022-2023, North Melbourne has gone backwards with slightly more reliance on non-youth and Adelaide has continued with just a lesser increase than previous years but nonetheless more reliance on youth.
Stacking this up in terms of the overall results of each season for the three clubs I think we start to see a picture forming:
2021
2022
2023
Hawthorn have had the most dramatic change from non-youth to youth without slowing down at all over the three years, and their season results have been very consistent as a result. They're seemingly recycling the team more aggressively than Adelaide or North Melbourne and we're yet to really see much of a results improvement yet likely due to this. Assuming the non-youth are the typical performers and the youth are less so, their youth is effectively covering their non-youth so far in terms of overall result. I suspect their non-youth is mostly kept for structural purposes rather than output and the youth is really given the keys here. They could see some stagnation while the churn continues but eventually and suddenly have a marked increase in results as the youth that isn't churned develops. I would say their future results are linked with their youth almost exclusively.
Adelaide have had the most dramatic change in results with their most recent season, and I think pairing this with their continual increasing reliance on youth yet a slowing down of the pace of that reliance demonstrates a stronger non-youth than Hawthorn or North Melbourne. I think this is also evident in what must be the rebuilding strategy for Adelaide, as they have had less youth for youth churn in subsequent years than Hawthorn or North Melbourne - it's clearly more of a like-for-like rollout from non-youth to youth, building around a gradually replacing non-youth core that's still relied on currently. It's also possible the lack of churn is resulting in some earlier signs of youth development. It's possible we'll continue to see some improvement or it's possible that some more churn will be necessary, I would say their future resutls are linked with both the youth and the non-youth.
North Melbourne have had the most promising start and clearly have had the greatest raw reliance on their youth the past three seasons as a whole, and their results speak to this, being clearly the worst performer of the three. However, it's quite striking that they seem to have effectively gone a different direction this season and turned more to non-youth slightly this most recent season, and with a very slight results improvement to show for it, though it's probably too small of a difference to correlate with much weight. They've had the most youth churn this season as well, so it looks to me like what's happened is this season they've had a harsh review of their youth from the previous two seasons and found some of it to be not worth sticking with. Perhaps there's also an intention there for some more non-youth to provide a bit more stability for a more uncertain youth. I would expect either a slight improvement from some development of the youth they stick with or a doubling down on further churn this off season - anything more than bottom 6 would be surprising.
So all up right now I think it depends how you measure it. If it's measured purely on potential, it's basically impossible to tell - one club might have one or two amazing youngsters and another about 6-8 solid good ones, who's going to win the premiership more off that? Who knows, entirely depends. But ignoring that, I think some things are clear:
Got all my stats from draftguru.
Adelaide (26 total)
Chayce Jones - 20yo
Fischer McAsey - 19yo
Lachlan Murphy - 22yo
Jackson Hately - 20yo
Riley Thilthorpe - 18yo
Luke Pedlar - 18yo
Brayden Cook - 18yo
Will Hamill - 20yo
Tyson Stengle - 22yo
Mitch Hinge - 22yo
Sam Berry - 18yo
Josh Worrell - 19yo
Ned McHenry - 20yo
Harry Schoenberg - 19yo
Nick Murray - 20yo
James Rowe - 21yo
Darcy Fogarty - 21yo
Elliot Himmelberg - 22yo
James Borlase - 18yo
Andrew McPherson - 21yo
Ronin O'Connor - 19yo
Lachlan Sholl - 20yo
Jordon Butts - 21yo
Tariek Newchurch - 18yo
Lachlan Gollant - 19yo
Patrick Parnell - 18yo
Fischer McAsey - 19yo
Lachlan Murphy - 22yo
Jackson Hately - 20yo
Riley Thilthorpe - 18yo
Luke Pedlar - 18yo
Brayden Cook - 18yo
Will Hamill - 20yo
Tyson Stengle - 22yo
Mitch Hinge - 22yo
Sam Berry - 18yo
Josh Worrell - 19yo
Ned McHenry - 20yo
Harry Schoenberg - 19yo
Nick Murray - 20yo
James Rowe - 21yo
Darcy Fogarty - 21yo
Elliot Himmelberg - 22yo
James Borlase - 18yo
Andrew McPherson - 21yo
Ronin O'Connor - 19yo
Lachlan Sholl - 20yo
Jordon Butts - 21yo
Tariek Newchurch - 18yo
Lachlan Gollant - 19yo
Patrick Parnell - 18yo
Youth Goals Kicked: 106/230 - 46.1%
Youth Brownlow: 2/51 - 3.9%
Hawthorn (25 total)
Harry Morrison - 22yo
Mitch Lewis - 22yo
James Worpel - 21yo
Conor Nash - 22yo
Will Day - 19yo
Ollie Hanrahan - 22yo
Jack Scrimshaw - 22yo
James Cousins - 22yo
Changkuoth Jiath - 21yo
Damon Greaves - 20yo
Finn Maginness - 19yo
Harrison Pepper - 19yo
Jacob Koschitzke - 20yo
Josh Morris - 19yo
Dylan Moore - 21yo
Ned Reeves - 22yo
Denver Grainger-Barras - 18yo
Emerson Jeka - 19yo
Seamus Mitchell - 18yo
Connor Downie - 18yo
Tyler Brockman - 18yo
Jack Saunders - 18yo
Jai Newcombe - 19yo
Jackson Callow - 18yo
Lachlan Bramble - 22yo
Mitch Lewis - 22yo
James Worpel - 21yo
Conor Nash - 22yo
Will Day - 19yo
Ollie Hanrahan - 22yo
Jack Scrimshaw - 22yo
James Cousins - 22yo
Changkuoth Jiath - 21yo
Damon Greaves - 20yo
Finn Maginness - 19yo
Harrison Pepper - 19yo
Jacob Koschitzke - 20yo
Josh Morris - 19yo
Dylan Moore - 21yo
Ned Reeves - 22yo
Denver Grainger-Barras - 18yo
Emerson Jeka - 19yo
Seamus Mitchell - 18yo
Connor Downie - 18yo
Tyler Brockman - 18yo
Jack Saunders - 18yo
Jai Newcombe - 19yo
Jackson Callow - 18yo
Lachlan Bramble - 22yo
Youth Goals Kicked: 125/239 - 52.3%
Youth Brownlow: 7/53 - 13.2%
North Melbourne (26 total)
Jack Mahony - 19yo
Jaidyn Stephenson - 21yo
Curtis Taylor - 20yo
Bailey Scott - 20yo
Luke Davies-Uniacke - 21yo
Jy Simpkin - 22yo
Atu Bosenavulagi - 20yo
Aiden Bonar - 21yo
Lachie Young - 21yo
Nick Larkey - 22yo
Tom Powell - 18yo
Tarryn Thomas - 20yo
Will Walker - 21yo
Will Phillips - 18yo
Charlie Comben - 19yo
Jacob Edwards - 18yo
Patrick Walker - 18yo
Charlie Ham - 18yo
Charlie Lazzaro - 18yo
Phoenix Spicer - 18yo
Kyron Hayden - 21yo
Tristan Xerri - 21yo
Flynn Perez - 19yo
Eddie Ford - 18yo
Matt McGuinness - 20yo
Cameron Zurhaar - 22yo
Jaidyn Stephenson - 21yo
Curtis Taylor - 20yo
Bailey Scott - 20yo
Luke Davies-Uniacke - 21yo
Jy Simpkin - 22yo
Atu Bosenavulagi - 20yo
Aiden Bonar - 21yo
Lachie Young - 21yo
Nick Larkey - 22yo
Tom Powell - 18yo
Tarryn Thomas - 20yo
Will Walker - 21yo
Will Phillips - 18yo
Charlie Comben - 19yo
Jacob Edwards - 18yo
Patrick Walker - 18yo
Charlie Ham - 18yo
Charlie Lazzaro - 18yo
Phoenix Spicer - 18yo
Kyron Hayden - 21yo
Tristan Xerri - 21yo
Flynn Perez - 19yo
Eddie Ford - 18yo
Matt McGuinness - 20yo
Cameron Zurhaar - 22yo
Youth Goals Kicked: 162/210 - 77.1%
Youth Brownlow: 17/39 - 43.6%
In 2022, these were the additions and subtractions:
Adelaide (-2+4 = 28 total)
- Tyson Stengle (now 23yo)
- Ronin O'Connor (now 20yo)
- Ronin O'Connor (now 20yo)
- Josh Rachele (18yo)
- Jake Soligo (18yo)
- Zak Taylor (18yo)
- Luke Nankervis (18yo)
Youth Goals Kicked: 140/249 - 56.2%
Youth Brownlow: 5/51 - 9.8%
Hawthorn (-4+8 = 29 total)
- Ollie Hanrahan (now 23yo)
- James Cousins (now 23yo)
- Damon Greaves (now 21yo)
- Harrison Pepper (now 20yo)
- Josh Ward (18yo)
- Ned Long (18yo)
- Jai Serong (18yo)
- Sam Butler (18yo)
- Connor Macdonald (18yo)
- Fionn O'Hara (19yo)
- James Blanck (21yo)
- Max Ramsden (18yo)
Youth Goals Kicked: 139/262 - 53.1%
Youth Brownlow: 21/45 - 46.7%
North Melbourne (-2+6 = 30 total)
- Will Walker (now 22yo)
- Charlie Ham (now 19yo)
- Charlie Ham (now 19yo)
- Jason Horne-Francis (18yo)
- Callum Coleman-Jones (22yo)
- Paul Curtis (18yo)
- Miller Bergman (18yo)
- Josh Goater (18yo)
- Jackson Archer (18yo)
Youth Goals Kicked: 145/193 - 75.1%
Youth Brownlow: 23/31 - 74.2%
And 2023:
Adelaide (-1+5 = 32 total)
- James Rowe (now 23yo)
- Max Michalanney (18yo)
- Izak Rankine (22yo)
- Billy Dowling (18yo)
- Hugh Bond (18yo)
- Mark Keane (22yo)
Youth Goals Kicked: 181/319 - 56.7%
Youth Brownlow: TBD
Hawthorn (-3+8 = 34 total)
- Conner Downie (now 20yo)
- Jack Saunders (now 20yo)
- Jackson Callow (now 20yo)
- Copper Stephens (21yo)
- Cam Mackenzie (18yo)
- Joshua Weddle (18yo)
- Josh Bennetts (18yo)
- Bailey Macdonald (18yo)
- Jack O'Sullivan (18yo)
- Henry Hustwaite (18yo)
- Clay Tucker (18yo)
Youth Goals Kicked: 147/237 - 62.0%
Youth Brownlow: TBD
North Melbourne (-5+6 = 31 total)
- Jason Horne-Francis (now 19yo)
- Atu Bosenavulagi (now 22yo)
- Patrick Walker (now 20yo)
- Kyron Hayden (now 23yo)
- Matt McGuinness (now 22yo)
- Harry Sheezel (18yo)
- George Wardlaw (18yo)
- Brayden George (18yo)
- Cooper Harvey (18yo)
- Blake Drury (18yo)
- Robert Hansen (18yo)
Youth Goals Kicked: 216/243 - 88.9%
Youth Brownlow: TBD
These aren't necessarily the best numbers to use for this, but I think we can see from these numbers and lists a few stories as a whole to describe how these three clubs have gone the past three seasons with regards to their youth.
2021 belongs to North Melbourne in terms of dependence on and contribution from their youth. Hawthorn and Adelaide both relying more on their non-youth to contribute, but Hawthorn clearly in front of Adelaide in terms of contribution from their youth.
2022 shows a big jump for all three clubs in dependence and contribution from their youth. Hawthorn the biggest jump in terms of games and brownlow votes, but partly because they were behind Adelaide and North Melbourne respectively for these in 2021. North Melbourne now with a clear dominance from their youth for quality and quantity, whereas Hawthorn and Adelaide are close behind on quantity but rely more than North Melbourne on quality from their non-youth.
2023 shows more stability for North Melbourne and Adelaide in terms of games but a continued increased reliance on youth for Hawthorn. Constrast for Adelaide and North Melbourne is that while I just said both are more stable from 2022-2023, North Melbourne has gone backwards with slightly more reliance on non-youth and Adelaide has continued with just a lesser increase than previous years but nonetheless more reliance on youth.
Stacking this up in terms of the overall results of each season for the three clubs I think we start to see a picture forming:
2021
- Adelaide - 28 points
- Hawthorn - 32 points
- North Melbourne - 18 points
2022
- Adelaide - 32 points
- Hawthorn - 32 points
- North Melbourne - 8 points
2023
- Adelaide - 44 points
- Hawthorn - 28 points
- North Melbourne - 12 points
Hawthorn have had the most dramatic change from non-youth to youth without slowing down at all over the three years, and their season results have been very consistent as a result. They're seemingly recycling the team more aggressively than Adelaide or North Melbourne and we're yet to really see much of a results improvement yet likely due to this. Assuming the non-youth are the typical performers and the youth are less so, their youth is effectively covering their non-youth so far in terms of overall result. I suspect their non-youth is mostly kept for structural purposes rather than output and the youth is really given the keys here. They could see some stagnation while the churn continues but eventually and suddenly have a marked increase in results as the youth that isn't churned develops. I would say their future results are linked with their youth almost exclusively.
Adelaide have had the most dramatic change in results with their most recent season, and I think pairing this with their continual increasing reliance on youth yet a slowing down of the pace of that reliance demonstrates a stronger non-youth than Hawthorn or North Melbourne. I think this is also evident in what must be the rebuilding strategy for Adelaide, as they have had less youth for youth churn in subsequent years than Hawthorn or North Melbourne - it's clearly more of a like-for-like rollout from non-youth to youth, building around a gradually replacing non-youth core that's still relied on currently. It's also possible the lack of churn is resulting in some earlier signs of youth development. It's possible we'll continue to see some improvement or it's possible that some more churn will be necessary, I would say their future resutls are linked with both the youth and the non-youth.
North Melbourne have had the most promising start and clearly have had the greatest raw reliance on their youth the past three seasons as a whole, and their results speak to this, being clearly the worst performer of the three. However, it's quite striking that they seem to have effectively gone a different direction this season and turned more to non-youth slightly this most recent season, and with a very slight results improvement to show for it, though it's probably too small of a difference to correlate with much weight. They've had the most youth churn this season as well, so it looks to me like what's happened is this season they've had a harsh review of their youth from the previous two seasons and found some of it to be not worth sticking with. Perhaps there's also an intention there for some more non-youth to provide a bit more stability for a more uncertain youth. I would expect either a slight improvement from some development of the youth they stick with or a doubling down on further churn this off season - anything more than bottom 6 would be surprising.
So all up right now I think it depends how you measure it. If it's measured purely on potential, it's basically impossible to tell - one club might have one or two amazing youngsters and another about 6-8 solid good ones, who's going to win the premiership more off that? Who knows, entirely depends. But ignoring that, I think some things are clear:
- Hawthorn are the most youth centric side of the three right now, and their youth is clearly developing faster as a whole than North Melbourne's youth
- Adelaide are the best performing side of the three right now, but it's hard to say how much of a factor their youth is playing in that, it could be more, same or less developed than Hawthorn's or North Melbourne's right now
- North Melbourne are in more dire need than either of the other two clubs to see more development from their youth in order to keep up with the other two. It's possible their youth could be as good as or better than the others, but we can't really see it to the same extent
Got all my stats from draftguru.
Caligo
Premiership Player
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Thank you. Superb.
Crankyhawk
Hall of Famer
Great work. Can I ask for a similar analysis but keeping only the 2021 class “ie how the youth at the time of thread start” have developed? I feel this is a way to best answer the original question (how did the youth at the time actually perform over a few years)
Awesome write up!
Strapping Young Lad
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So in summary, Adelaide relies heavily on Walker and Laird.
Got it.
Got it.
Disco Dew
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I’m confused by this post. Not enough barbs or trolling in it for mine. Far too balanced.
Really good read though!
Normal programming has resumed…
- Nov 17, 2011
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If the question is who deserved to win the poll when the thread was created, the answer is North Melbourne with Hawthorn a close second.
If we filter the current 22-24-year-old crop by Player Rating, excluding players like Rankine and Newcombe who were recruited after the thread was created, the ranking of players is as follows;
1. NM - Luke Davies-Uniacke
2. NM - Tarryn Thomas
3. HAW - James Worpel
4. HAW - Will Day
5. NM - Jy Simpkin
6. HAW - Conor Nash
7. HAW - Dylan Moore
8. ADE - Mitchell Hinge
9. NM - Cameron Zurhaar
10. NM - Nick Larkey
It's not a perfect exercise, but the results that it leads to are as close as you'll get to an unbiased ranking. The main takeaway is that Adelaide did not originally deserve inclusion in this thread. I also want to point out that the North Melbourne players listed here are the exact ones that we told you were good, and who led to us winning this poll originally. Dylan Moore has become a great player but was fortunate not to be delisted at the time of this thread's creation. Conor Nash has also had a breakout that not many would expect. Based on the information available in early 2021, I think it's fair to say that we were the correct choice.
If we take a look at the top 10 players who were recruited after this thread was created.
1. HAW - Jai Newcombe
2. ADE - Izak Rankine
3. NM - Will Phillips
4. NM - Harry Sheezel
5. ADE - Jake Soligo
6. HAW - Josh Ward
7. NM - George Wardlaw
8. ADE - Josh Rachele
9. HAW - Josh Weddle
10. ADE - Riley Thilthorpe
Three for North Melbourne, three for Hawhtorn, and four for Adelaide. What I see here is that in Rankine, Sheezel, and Newcombe, all three clubs have recruited a genuine star player, but after that, it's a various assortment of young talent yet to hit their stride. Although Rachele and Wardlaw hold significantly more value than the other players on this list.
For various reasons, none of the aforementioned players have led to wins for North Melbourne, but to point the finger at our 18-24 crop would be incredibly misguided. We have what's perhaps the worst collection of 25+ talent ever assembled, and since 2018 have only had a coach reach 22 games once. Should things go our way in the next month and a half, we'll have leveraged this instability into picks 2, 3, 16, and Riley Sanders.
If we filter the current 22-24-year-old crop by Player Rating, excluding players like Rankine and Newcombe who were recruited after the thread was created, the ranking of players is as follows;
1. NM - Luke Davies-Uniacke
2. NM - Tarryn Thomas
3. HAW - James Worpel
4. HAW - Will Day
5. NM - Jy Simpkin
6. HAW - Conor Nash
7. HAW - Dylan Moore
8. ADE - Mitchell Hinge
9. NM - Cameron Zurhaar
10. NM - Nick Larkey
It's not a perfect exercise, but the results that it leads to are as close as you'll get to an unbiased ranking. The main takeaway is that Adelaide did not originally deserve inclusion in this thread. I also want to point out that the North Melbourne players listed here are the exact ones that we told you were good, and who led to us winning this poll originally. Dylan Moore has become a great player but was fortunate not to be delisted at the time of this thread's creation. Conor Nash has also had a breakout that not many would expect. Based on the information available in early 2021, I think it's fair to say that we were the correct choice.
If we take a look at the top 10 players who were recruited after this thread was created.
1. HAW - Jai Newcombe
2. ADE - Izak Rankine
3. NM - Will Phillips
4. NM - Harry Sheezel
5. ADE - Jake Soligo
6. HAW - Josh Ward
7. NM - George Wardlaw
8. ADE - Josh Rachele
9. HAW - Josh Weddle
10. ADE - Riley Thilthorpe
Three for North Melbourne, three for Hawhtorn, and four for Adelaide. What I see here is that in Rankine, Sheezel, and Newcombe, all three clubs have recruited a genuine star player, but after that, it's a various assortment of young talent yet to hit their stride. Although Rachele and Wardlaw hold significantly more value than the other players on this list.
For various reasons, none of the aforementioned players have led to wins for North Melbourne, but to point the finger at our 18-24 crop would be incredibly misguided. We have what's perhaps the worst collection of 25+ talent ever assembled, and since 2018 have only had a coach reach 22 games once. Should things go our way in the next month and a half, we'll have leveraged this instability into picks 2, 3, 16, and Riley Sanders.
Caligo
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I completely agree with your analysis about the quality of your over 25s. Do you think it was an intentional strategy by your club?
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Laird didn't even make the AA squad this year, Sicily and Bruest made it for Hawthorn
Nothing on Hawthorn's over reliance on their senior players?
- Nov 17, 2011
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From 2017 to 2020 there wasn't much strategy to be found at the club.
We had a decent era from 2012-2016, but after that, we did everything we could to delay the inevitable rebuild. The football world knew that we needed to rebuild, but by Round 2, 2020 we had won 10 of our last 15 games and were expecting to reach finals. In the 82 games since we've had five acting coaches and ten wins.
The short summary is that we ignored the problem for too long, and waited until the very last minute to address a significant lack of talent. We were shortsighted in our recruiting prior to 2020, and mostly brought in players who are now retired. We've done our best recently to recruit mature players to a side that's been on the bottom of the ladder, but it's a situation where you either need to take limited players (Tucker, Howe, CCJ) or overpay for solid players (Logue, Stephenson, and Corr).
Last year we were rumored to be able to make a lot of progress, but I do believe the situation with Clarkson slowed things down. This year I expect us to be very active in our attempts to poach solid players and hopefully, we're able to get four to five of them over the line.
Caligo
Premiership Player
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It is a fair point. Our forward and back lines have really relied on Lewis and Bruest and Sicily and Hardwick respectively. None of them are super young. I am genuinely afraid about what happens when bruest retires, especially since I had a lot of hopes pinned on brockman.Laird didn't even make the AA squad this year, Sicily and Bruest made it for Hawthorn
Nothing on Hawthorn's over reliance on their senior players?
Caligo
Premiership Player
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I don't think you ignored it so much as actively tried to create it. But I agree this year's offseason will give us some really good information.
- Nov 17, 2011
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From 2017 to 2019 we were actively pushing for finals.
Brad Scott thought he could get one last run out of Cunnington, Higgins, Tarrant, Goldstein, Thompson, Ziebell etc, and went heavy in recruiting players like Martin, Kelly, Heeney, Gaff, and Polec. We added mature players in Marley Williams, Jasper Pittard, Dom Tyson, Aaron Hall, and Josh Walker, and traded out our first-rounder in 2018 and 2019.
From 2019 to 2020 we changed basically every essential position at the club, and they all decided to do a complete teardown once the wheels fell off in 2020.
It would have taken near-perfect list management from that point to avoid our current position. We had won three games and had the 6th oldest list in the league. Of our list of 45 less than 15 will still be in the AFL next year. The list was in a diabolical state due to the previous regime's insistence to keep pushing the rebuild back by a year.
Caligo
Premiership Player
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Brown isn't a world beater but he would have kept kicking goals and won you some close games. Getting in a crouch type guy would have won you games. Same with an amon or a host of others.
It just feels so engineered.
Look at Hawthorn and Adelaide. They are still winning games on the backs of oldies.
- Nov 17, 2011
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- North Melbourne
You're assuming we haven't been trying. It's hard enough to attract players as the smallest club in Victoria, and it doesn't get much easier after winning 12 games in four years. I'd love to be in Adelaide's position where players like Dawson and Rankine will nominate to come home every other year.
We've fallen short on countless names and the issues with Clarkson last year did not help. I also don't think we've brought in significantly less talent than Hawthorn over this period.
We turned Brown into Jaidyn Stephenson, and they've had very similar years. Mason Wood would be the one we'd love to have back, but I think his delisting was why he was able to reach his potential.
Caligo
Premiership Player
- Aug 18, 2023
- 3,556
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- Hawthorn
I agree with you on Mason Wood. I don't see how anyone could have seen that coming.
Cutting brown when he was kicking bags for fun just seemed iffy to me though.
- Nov 17, 2011
- 2,826
- 10,548
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- North Melbourne
Brown in his last year had a knee issue that we were concerned would linger on. He hasn't been the same player since 2019. He has still been solid, but I think the club knew his best was behind him.
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