Strategy Who should be our next coach?

[Scorpus]

Right place right time.

He was an assistant from 2006 - 2013 with zero success. Then joined Richmond and rode the 3 flags before joining Collingwood.



This is just laughable. You really giving credit to Richmonds 3 flags and Collingwoods flag last year to Leppitsch?

I didn't give credit to Leppitsch alone for those flags. But being part of a successful program is better than having no results on the board.

I'm assessing purely based on outcome.

Since failing as a coach he's worked in two successful programs and won four flags as an assistant.

Many other failed coaches have gone into other roles (Leon Cameron) or into the media (Nathan Buckley) and haven't been part of successful programs or had the ability to improve their coaching in other systems.

If you're going to pick an ex head coach who hasn't won flags, you'd want someone that can claim to have improved and have results to point to as evidence. Something more than just promises of having learned from the experience, which is all Buckley and Cameron could do.

But since you think that's laughable I'm interested which ex-coach you think has a better record since their coaching stint

 

[adelaidecrows]

The Messiah II?

Not a messiah, just someone you know who can maximise a list.

 

[Samcro24]

Not a messiah, just someone you know who can maximise a list.

You called him Christ Scott.

 

[GreyCrow]

Which assistants worked with Balme previously

 

[cleanhands]

Which assistants worked with Balme previously

Not 100% sure if Wells worked with him at Melbourne

 

[AFC979810]

If you're going to pick an ex head coach who hasn't won flags, you'd want someone that can claim to have improved and have results to point to as evidence. Something more than just promises of having learned from the experience, which is all Buckley and Cameron could do.

Disagree.

Our only Premiership Coach took 2 years off in the media before returning to coaching and that worked out pretty well for everyone.

Leon Cameron has spent the last two years at Sydney - 1 year as technical director of the Swans Academy and the other as the Executive General Manager of Football - who is to say he hasn't improved because he wasn't an Assistant?

But since you think that's laughable I'm interested which ex-coach you think has a better record since their coaching stint

I think you are asking the wrong question. I don't particularly care about an ex head coaches record as an assistant coach.

The AFL is littered with so called great assistants that fail miserably at head coaching - Neeld, Teague, Leppitsch, Bolton, Bailey, etc.

I think its a reach to suggest Leppitsch is a better option than Buckley / Cameron purely because the clubs he went to be an assistant at won flags.

 

[AFC979810]

His record at Collingwood is not great and almost all of his experience is at the one club

He wouldn't be at the top of my list

218 games coached - Winning percentage of 53.7%.

Lost a Grand Final by a kick and a prelim final by a kick the next year. Thats pretty damn good.

Showed he could rebuild a side. Experience with a big club and the pressure that comes with it would be an added bonus.

 

[Captain Furious]

Disagree.

Our only Premiership Coach took 2 years off in the media before returning to coaching and that worked out pretty well for everyone.

Leon Cameron has spent the last two years at Sydney - 1 year as technical director of the Swans Academy and the other as the Executive General Manager of Football - who is to say he hasn't improved because he wasn't an Assistant?



I think you are asking the wrong question. I don't particularly care about an ex head coaches record as an assistant coach.

The AFL is littered with so called great assistants that fail miserably at head coaching - Neeld, Teague, Leppitsch, Bolton, Bailey, etc.

I think its a reach to suggest Leppitsch is a better option than Buckley / Cameron purely because the clubs he went to be an assistant at won flags.

I don't think Leppitsch is the answer but the premise I understand. In almost 60 years combined of player and coaching experience, Buckley and Cameron have 1 flag between them (Buckley as assistant coach in 2010). Leppitsch has 7 himself.

Like any profession, you hire leaders who are successful, have experienced success, have driven success. It doesn't matter how much you hear about it, watch it, read about it, the ability to replicate it becomes so much more achievable when you've experienced it first hand.

In our current coaching team, we have 1 NVB assistant coach AFL flag between what must be over 100 years of collective playing and coaching years. It doesn't get better when you look through the rest of the football department. That is what we're severely lacking and what we need to get into the mix at every level of the club's coaching and administration.

 

[Captain Furious]

218 games coached - Winning percentage of 53.7%.

Lost a Grand Final by a kick and a prelim final by a kick the next year. Thats pretty damn good.

Showed he could rebuild a side. Experience with a big club and the pressure that comes with it would be an added bonus.

Buckley coaching them out of the 8 doesn't really constitute a rebuild. He still had strong lists to work with. That first year they missed the 8, their midfield was Pendlebury, Swan, Beams, Sidebottom.

And if you have issues with a slow defensive game plan...that is the Buckley way.

 

[AFC979810]

Buckley coaching them out of the 8 doesn't really constitute a rebuild. He still had strong lists to work with. That first year they missed the 8, their midfield was Pendlebury, Swan, Beams, Sidebottom.

IMO - Collingwood (Eddie) massively botched the handover from Malthouse to Bucks.

Bucks cleared out a lot of the older guard from the Malthouse error and built a pretty solid team.

And if you have issues with a slow defensive game plan...that is the Buckley way.

His two best years (2018/2019) they were 4th and 7th in the AFL for scoring. To be honest - I dont care if we win 1-0 or 110 -109. I just want us to win.

 

[Captain Furious]

IMO - Collingwood (Eddie) massively botched the handover from Malthouse to Bucks.

Bucks cleared out a lot of the older guard from the Malthouse error and built a pretty solid team.



His two best years (2018/2019) they were 4th and 7th in the AFL for scoring. To be honest - I dont care if we win 1-0 or 110 -109. I just want us to win.

On both occasions they were lower for scoring than their ladder position, which illustrates my point. Their scoring in 2019 would have them well in the bottom half of last year's ladder.

While I agree 4 points is better than a high scoring loss, defensive, slow build up game plans aren't very successful in the current modern game (as coaches like Lyon and Clarkson are starting to understand - to be fair to Clarkson, he utilized a lot of different styles over his time). Even less attractive styles like Melbourne and Carlton are based on kicking down the line to contests and backing your players to win them, rather than slow movement, around the boundaries etc. The Sydney, Collingwood and now Hawthorn style is run at the opposition in numbers and take the game on. Remarkably, our coaching team haven't cottoned on to the fact that when we play fast, aggressive football, we score. When we play that slow build up, short kick mark, sideways game, we get scored against.

 

[Head Selector]

Neds got the tackle out , Hinge is loosening up , the Curtin's are drawn , Berry is now flicking it around , Keane is Rankine hard in anticipation whilst Cook is on high heat up the right flank.

The big news story however is the newly Murried and very svelte looking Butts who sure does have his bounce back ... moving ever so freely , covering that D zone like it's his very own .

Welcome ... Coach Cox

 

[Captain Furious]

IMO - Collingwood (Eddie) massively botched the handover from Malthouse to Bucks.

Bucks cleared out a lot of the older guard from the Malthouse error and built a pretty solid team.

Bucks didn't do that, Derek Hine did. Buckley never had a bottom 8 list in his time at Collingwood. On top of their very good recruiting team, they have the advantage of a lot of players wanting to go to the club for the big crowds, MCG games, support, facilities etc.

 

[Geoffa32]

Our last three coaches have had a nickname ending in "y"


Coxy it is...

On SM-A325F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[AFC979810]

Bucks didn't do that, Derek Hine did. Buckley never had a bottom 8 list in his time at Collingwood. On top of their very good recruiting team, they have the advantage of a lot of players wanting to go to the club for the big crowds, MCG games, support, facilities etc.

Well kinda. Hine was on the outs after the Mayne / Wells additions and they brought in Ned Guy as list manager who made some absolutely disastrous decisions. Their list during 2015 - 2017 wasn't great.

Lets not act like Buckley had a dream run. He had very little stability (7 different heads of football in his 12 years as coach).

 

[Scorpus]

Disagree.

Our only Premiership Coach took 2 years off in the media before returning to coaching and that worked out pretty well for everyone.

Leon Cameron has spent the last two years at Sydney - 1 year as technical director of the Swans Academy and the other as the Executive General Manager of Football - who is to say he hasn't improved because he wasn't an Assistant?



I think you are asking the wrong question. I don't particularly care about an ex head coaches record as an assistant coach.

The AFL is littered with so called great assistants that fail miserably at head coaching - Neeld, Teague, Leppitsch, Bolton, Bailey, etc.

I think its a reach to suggest Leppitsch is a better option than Buckley / Cameron purely because the clubs he went to be an assistant at won flags.

It's not purely about winning flags as an assistant, it's about professional development in an elite environment. And there's no more elite environment than a premiership winner

The question I'm asking is: "what have you done since head coaching that has improved your coaching?"

When someone hasn't succeeded in a role, you'd want evidence of trying to improve. Going away and learning the craft from the best. Working with successful people and getting results.

With coaches like Buckley, what has he done to improve his coaching ability since he left Collingwood? Not a whole lot. He changed careers.

You can put his lack of success down to bad luck or circumstance if you want, but at the end of the day you're essentially guessing that the coach he was previously is actually good enough despite no evidence of that. And no evidence of improvement.

Why would a head coach who hasn't gone away and furthered his development be ahead of someone who has? Any ex-coach who didn't win flags can reflect on their experience and say "yeah I learned from that, I'd be better next time". I want to see more than that.

With a coach like Blight his record at Geelong was exceptional for a coach without success. If you're picking from that pool (ex-head coaches without flags) and using only their results as a coach, that's the sort of record you'd want to see. Not the record of Buckley or Cameron. Those coaches haven't done enough to put themselves at the top of a list without evidence of improvement.

Ultimately I don't think there's much difference between an untried "great assistant" and a failed head coach, in fact if anything the lack of success going down the 'retry the failed head coach' path suggests getting a great assistant is the better approach.

What I'm most interested in is what the coach's track record is, where they have learned and what environments have they been part of, and if they haven't been successful, what steps have they taken to learn and improve

 

[AFC979810]

You can put his lack of success down to bad luck or circumstance if you want, but at the end of the day you're essentially guessing that the coach he was previously is actually good enough despite no evidence of that. And no evidence of improvement.

And I think this is where we differ.

I think that a coach who has his side leading a grand final with under 2 minutes to go has provided enough evidence that he is good enough.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

I don't think you can just ignore that Buckley ushered in a long period of stagnation and decline at Collingwood. It makes me very suspicious about that GF year because it aligns with Longmuir's presence and things immediately reverted back to the long term trend when he left for Freo.

 

[AFC979810]

I don't think you can just ignore that Buckley ushered in a long period of stagnation and decline at Collingwood.

Long period of stagnation?

PF, QF, 11,12,12,13, GF (4 point loss), PF (6 point loss), SF.

Finals in 5 of 9 full seasons as HC.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

Long period of stagnation?

PF, QF, 11,12,12,13, GF (4 point loss), PF (6 point loss), SF.

Finals in 5 of 9 full seasons as HC.

Yes if anything is was consistent decline more than stagnation.

 

[AFC979810]

Yes if anything is was consistent decline more than stagnation.

Consistent decline is going from a prelim to 13th back to a gf and then back down again?

 

[bootrossbootross]

Buckley, but he won’t leave his media gig

Yes the king of Figjam did so well as a coach didn't he?

 

[bootrossbootross]

The coach is largely irrelevant, Leigh Matthews has been refreshingly honest about this.

The primary indicator of premiership capability is an elite, talented list. We have slowly eroded that as an asset in our list (it seems from our recruiting over the last 10 years) and expect the coach to perform magic.

Imho there are far more important positions in the club to get right before worrying about the coach, until we become a football first club we will not get near it again. If you could change one position at the club immediately, you'd be astute to leave the coach as is and target elsewhere.

Methinks we have the worst coaching group in the game, and have had so for 15 years. (PW excluded, he was a ray of light).

 

[Mr_Moogle]

Consistent decline is going from a prelim to 13th back to a gf and then back down again?

On what planet is 6 years of trending down not consistent? Most coaches would of been chucked out with those results. Buckley only survived because he's a favourite son.

 

[Eagleboy2011]

Yes the king of Figjam did so well as a coach didn't he?

Maybe unfair. Just like Vossey had a horror run at the Lions, done an apprenticeship elsewhere and now appears to be achieving results. Buckley has had time to reflect and I'm sure will come back better.