Banter Who will be better in 2025, Carlton or Collingwood? Part 3

[Fadge]

Again I know you want to believe that but Carlton had the ability to get the Houston deal done and chose not to. Club has been talking about hitting the draft for ages and Voss would not be speaking to players we couldn't bring in if we wanted to.

They didn't have the ability to bring on Houston, as there are constrained by their bulging salary cap.

Voss wanted him, but when it came to the crunch the list management team couldn't get it done.

 

[carlton_99]

They didn't have the ability to bring on Houston, as there are constrained by their bulging salary cap.

Voss wanted him, but when it came to the crunch the list management team couldn't get it done.

You can keep deluding yourself all you want - no amount of facts are going to change your mind

 

[Fadge]

You can keep deluding yourself all you want - no amount of facts are going to change your mind

I must have missed the 'facts' you've been posting...

Because here are the 'facts' as I understand them:
1. Houston met with Voss during the season and there was mutual interest re:Houston playing at Carlton;
2. Carlton were in the box seat to pick up Houston after he confirmed he was no longer interested in playing for Melbourne;
3. Collingwood swooped in and picked him up for around the same trade capital as Carlton had available.
4. There is no superstar at pick 3 (or 4) who will be a game changer in the short term.
5. Carlton's best players are in their prime right now, yet they're still a fair way off the better teams in the competition. If they want to contend for premierships, they need to improve their list immediately. Not plateau or go backwards as it appears they have done going into 2025.

So, how did Houston land at Collingwood again?

 

[Fl4wlessLogic]

Without Membrey Carlton

With Membrey Carlton

 

[carlton_99]

I must have missed the 'facts' you've been posting...

Because here are the 'facts' as I understand them:
1. Houston met with Voss during the season and there was mutual interest re:Houston playing at Carlton;
2. Carlton were in the box seat to pick up Houston after he confirmed he was no longer interested in playing for Melbourne;
3. Collingwood swooped in and picked him up for around the same trade capital as Carlton had available.
4. There is no superstar at pick 3 (or 4) who will be a game changer in the short term.
5. Carlton's best players are in their prime right now, yet they're still a fair way off the better teams in the competition. If they want to contend for premierships, they need to improve their list immediately. Not plateau or go backwards as it appears they have done going into 2025.

So, how did Houston land at Collingwood again?

The only fact there is that Voss met with Houston - everything else is pure conjecture and for (4) a poor attempt at clairvoyance. The facts are that the coach was interested in bringing in the player and the player was interested in getting to Carlton. Neither of these things happen unless the club has the ability to bring that player in. More facts include that Carlton had made a big offer to Hayward earlier this season showing that money was not the problem. It became even less of a problem when we delisted/traded a whole bunch of players that would give us even more salary cap room.

Once again Carlton have been talking about hitting the draft well before the Houston stuff even came up - the list management team have a strategy to balance the list and are sticking with it. We weren't going to give up all our draft assets for a player we don't need. If it was an elite small forward, outside mid or key defender different story but another HB does not move the needle enough to warrant throwing away all our draft capital + taking up the salary cap room we just created.

 

[CarmenSandiego]

I must have missed the 'facts' you've been posting...

Because here are the 'facts' as I understand them:
1. Houston met with Voss during the season and there was mutual interest re:Houston playing at Carlton;
2. Carlton were in the box seat to pick up Houston after he confirmed he was no longer interested in playing for Melbourne;
3. Collingwood swooped in and picked him up for around the same trade capital as Carlton had available.
4. There is no superstar at pick 3 (or 4) who will be a game changer in the short term.
5. Carlton's best players are in their prime right now, yet they're still a fair way off the better teams in the competition. If they want to contend for premierships, they need to improve their list immediately. Not plateau or go backwards as it appears they have done going into 2025.

So, how did Houston land at Collingwood again?

You also gave us shit for recruiting Martin, Williams, Saad, Cerra, Acres & Hollands. It would’ve been no different if we got Houston.

Carlton posters really need to stop engaging with this guy.

 

[Fadge]

The only fact there is that Voss met with Houston - everything else is pure conjecture and for (4) a poor attempt at clairvoyance. The facts are that the coach was interested in bringing in the player and the player was interested in getting to Carlton. Neither of these things happen unless the club has the ability to bring that player in. More facts include that Carlton had made a big offer to Hayward earlier this season showing that money was not the problem. It became even less of a problem when we delisted/traded a whole bunch of players that would give us even more salary cap room.

Once again Carlton have been talking about hitting the draft well before the Houston stuff even came up - the list management team have a strategy to balance the list and are sticking with it. We weren't going to give up all our draft assets for a player we don't need. If it was an elite small forward, outside mid or key defender different story but another HB does not move the needle enough to warrant throwing away all our draft capital + taking up the salary cap room we just created.

So tell me how Hayward fits your criteria of 'a player of need' - I.e. elite small forward, outside mid or key defender?

 

[Fadge]

You also gave us shit for recruiting Martin, Williams, Saad, Cerra, Acres & Hollands. It would’ve been no different if we got Houston.

I don't recall giving Carlton shit for recruiting Saad and Cerra. Why would I give you shit for bringing in players that make your list better?

And what did we all say at the time when Houston was up for grabs? I don't recall giving you shit when Carlton was trying to get him?

You guys need to stop imagining.

 

[carlton_99]

So tell me how Hayward fits your criteria of 'a player of need' - I.e. elite small forward, outside mid or key defender?

Hayward would fill a need more than Houston as a medium-sized forward who has great attributes both in the air and on the ground. The additional consideration is that Hayward would have been a free agent meaning all we would need to give up is salary and not compromise our ability to hit the draft.

 

[Fadge]

Without Membrey Carlton

With Membrey Carlton

With the voting in the poll, can we please consolidate Falcon's 4 or 5 aliases?

It distorts the figures.

 

[Fadge]

Hayward would fill a need % more than Houston as a medium-sized forward who has great attributes both in the air and on the ground. The additional consideration is that Hayward would have been a free agent meaning all we would need to give up is salary and not compromise our ability to hit the draft.

Fair comment on the free agency, but I still think there are salary cap constraints that are prohibiting you from picking up these players.

 

[carlton_99]

Fair comment on the free agency, but I still think there are salary cap constraints that are prohibiting you from picking up these players.

If we had no room in the salary cap we wouldn't have been going for Hayward as a FA - especially when you consider you normally have to overpay to get a player via that avenue. Not only because of the competitiveness of the market but also to stop the player's current club matching the offer and forcing the trade.

 

[Fl4wlessLogic]

I don't recall giving Carlton shit for recruiting Saad and Cerra. Why would I give you shit for bringing in players that make your list better?

And what did we all say at the time when Houston was up for grabs? I don't recall giving you shit when Carlton was trying to get him?

You guys need to stop imagining.

Do you agree with what the Pies are doing? You’ve essentially nuked your draft capital for another flag right when Tassie are coming in.

That’s like going rock climbing without a harness. Cool if you pull it off but if you fall

 

[Bale Dup]

With the voting in the poll, can we please consolidate Falcon's 4 or 5 aliases?

It distorts the figures.

Prosecution rests your honour!
More proof you have nfi.
Don't know who this "Falcon" is that you keep referring to, or what happened in the past between you both, but it seems to me they're inside your head and you can't get them out
And for the record I have only voted once.

On SM-G980F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Fadge]

Prosecution rests your honour!
More proof you have nfi.
Don't know who this "Falcon" is that you keep referring to, or what happened in the past between you both, but it seems to me they're inside your head and you can't get them out
And for the record I have only voted once.

Hmmmm.

What made you think I was referring to you?

 

[Fadge]

Do you agree with what the Pies are doing? You’ve essentially nuked your draft capital for another flag right when Tassie are coming in.

That’s like going rock climbing without a harness. Cool if you pull it off but if you fall

Build the best list you can each year;

Put the best team available on the park each week.

It's worked for Collingwood, Geelong and Sydney for the last 2 plus decades, why would they change now?

This is a game of high risk, high reward. Why step back and ensure we're a mid table team for the medium term?

Who were all the teams that were detrimentally impacted by the introduction of Gold Coast and GWS?

 

[Bale Dup]

Hmmmm.

What made you think I was referring to you?

Let's just call it a well educated guess

On SM-G980F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Fl4wlessLogic]

Build the best list you can each year;

Put the best team available on the park each week.

It's worked for Collingwood, Geelong and Sydney for the last 2 plus decades, why would they change now?

This is a game of high risk, high reward. Why step back and ensure we're a mid table team for the medium term?

Who were all the teams that were detrimentally impacted by the introduction of Gold Coast and GWS?

Fair enough but only Geelong would be the considered the successful ones with that method tbh.

Pies and Swans haven’t won a heap of flags that way.

I’d rather go down the Lions, Hawks, Tigers routes doing proper rebuilds. They have more flags to show for it this century.

 

[South of the Yarra]

A summary of

The closest Peter ever got to winning a GF

Oh my goodness. This may be the best post in this entire thread.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Prosecution rests your honour!
More proof you have nfi.
Don't know who this "Falcon" is that you keep referring to, or what happened in the past between you both, but it seems to me they're inside your head and you can't get them out
And for the record I have only voted once.

On SM-G980F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Nope he is right, he is up to Alias Number 5 or 6.

 

[Bale Dup]

Nope he is right, he is up to Alias Number 5 or 6.

Another one with nfi. And the hit's just keep on comin

On SM-G980F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Fadge]

Fair enough but only Geelong would be the considered the successful ones with that method tbh.

Pies and Swans haven’t won a heap of flags that way.

I’d rather go down the Lions, Hawks, Tigers routes doing proper rebuilds. They have more flags to show for it this century.

What about the teams that have gone down the full rebuild path and haven't got near a premiership?

Like Carlton for example?

 

[South of the Yarra]

Another one with nfi. And the hit's just keep on comin

On SM-G980F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Sweet

 

[adammania9]

Fair enough but only Geelong would be the considered the successful ones with that method tbh.

Pies and Swans haven’t won a heap of flags that way.

I’d rather go down the Lions, Hawks, Tigers routes doing proper rebuilds. They have more flags to show for it this century.

If you’re factoring in Geelong’s 2007-11 successes, that team was almost entirely drafted. Only three players won premierships in that era who were acquired by trade - Mooney, Harley and Ottens. None of them were "top-ups". Ottens was the only expensive acquisition but he was 24.

Free agency came into the AFL in 2012 and changed the player movement landscape, and changed the way clubs can manage their lists in the long run. Since free agency was introduced, Geelong and Collingwood have returned one premiership each and Sydney have not returned one but have certainly had their chances.

Of course this form of list management is not exclusive to just free agency. Geelong and Collingwood have "topped up" by trading for plenty of players. I'd argue Sydney besides last year have rarely topped up. They've been mostly astute drafters and developers. I'd argue Sydney don't really belong in the same conversation with regards to list management strategies.