Who will North, Essendon and Adelaide replace in the top 8 in 2014

[telsor]

I doubt it will last very long, Vickery and Hampson in the forwardline is going to give you nothing in the way of forward pressure. Also chances are one of three gets injured anyway.

Not an expert on Richmond but I would have thought that it would be ideal that Maric a greater than average ruckload anyway and Vickery just acts as a chop out every now and then. Kind of in the same way that Collingwood used Lee Brown with Jolly.

Tends to be how it's worked in the past, but Maric can't really last out games well enough for that plan to work, and Vickery isn't good enough in the ruck to really want to up his time there (Maric at 90% is still better than Vickery in the ruck, but gets killed by fresher 'good' ruckmen, as happened in the final last year).

Injury is a big deal. When Vickery goes down, it really messes with our structure and this will definately give us another option there.

Defensive pressure is an issue, as is the need for crumbing forwards, but hey, every team needs areas to improve on...

The best part of it though is moving Jack out to CHF...His strength was always his mobility so giving him room should help him a lot. Also his i50 work is very good, and I think he'll dominate out there and Vickery (et al) will benefit from the delivery.

 

[Big_Luch]

Ok i'll bite.

fb - jamison v rance. jamison is easily the best one v one kpd on either list- Jamison is a solid FB and you are right that he has the wood over Jack for some reason but seriously ? Jamision and Rance are two diffrent types of defenders. Jamision does not create run out of the back line like Rance. Jamison does not intercept mark like Rance. Jamison is a negative defender, he stops the player he is on regardless if he himself only gets 4 disposals. Rance is a attacking FB, he just does not sit on one person, he spreads, he attacks the ball and he runs out of the defensive 50.

chb - watson v chaplin. geez a 29yo v a junior 21yo- WOW, Chaplin is worth less due to his age ? lol. Chaplin intercept marking last year was elite. Do you even check the stats before you sprout this tripe ?

Bottom line our defense performed better then Carltons last year. Period. Any neutral would tell you that, our defense was rated the third best in the league last year, what was Carltons ?

chf - vickery v henderson well give me hendeson id prefer him at chb but it shows his versatility- Henderson is a great player but you are comparing a defender/forward to a ruck/forward. You also ignore that Hendo is older, has had more time in the system then Vickery. You also ignore Henderson had a brake out season in 2013 playing 24 games for 26 goals compared to Vickery who only played 21 games for 27 goals, ill take Vickery thanks.

ff - riewoldt v waite give me jack every time but waite is clearly the second best kpf on both clubs lists. - Agree, ill take Jack to thanks, as to waite being the second best kpf on both lists lol again your basing all this on your opinion, look at the numbers then come back.
Who is the second best Kpf?

ruck/for - kruezer v hampson. lol kruezer please.- How about comparing ruck for ruck, so Maric vs Kruezer ? Keep in mind, I actually rate Kruezer, he once his body is right will i believe become one of the most dominate big rucks in the game BUT for as it stands now, I would take Maric's last 3 seasons over him.
Maric has played 1 super season for you guys, and barely showed much last season due to injury. So he only has played 2 seasons as a permanent fixture in a team. Kreuzer would've played comparatively as much even with the age discrepancy.

third tall - walker v grimes. andrew walker please- Walker plays third tall ? Grimes due to his body not holding up, I would take Walker too.

.

 

[theflea]

so tell me what did i get wrong in my comparisons.
tell me outside of riewoldt what kpf do we have that is better than waite.
michael jamison imo is one of the better one v one kpds in the entire comp. we dont have a better tall defender.
ffs who is a better ruck /for than kruezer on our list. vickery you have to be kidding.hampson lol.
henderson has not only performed down back but shown he can play chf and play the role well. he doesnt fall over is always accountable and is reliable in a one v one contest hence i prefer him to rance.
watson is a 21 yr old who i have some doubts about but refuse to right him off. i dont believe ive ever written a rfc tall of at the same stage. ffs i thought post should have been given one more yr.
no not overly critical or harsh just honest and refuse to let club allegiance get in the way of appraisal.
you do know this started when a disrespectful richmond poster compared carltons talls to the likes of astbury griffiths mcbean etc. i wonder which poster should be getting pulled up for, how do you say it for being to hard overly critical.

Did I say you were wrong in this instance? Its your opinion anyway, so it cant be 'wrong'. What I meant is IMO your to harsh in your criticisms sometimes and accurate in others.

I will give my impressions on the above.

Remember IMO.... I think Vickery has played as good as Waite but is more inconsistent, but does have to contend with JR taking focus of him. Agree with Jamieson. I don't think Kreuzer is much of a fwd but a good ruck and follower. Again Vickery isn't a ruckman of any sort as he doesn't want to jump at the ball much. I think Henderson and Rance are about the same( this is where I think your harsh). I am also being honest in my assessments and certainly see failings from the club, but unlike you i also see what they are doing right. Your using your OP as the baseline of honesty and integrity but itis only 1 p.o.v which doesnt make your op right, just like mine doesn't. Remember I was 1 of the few that has said I didn't agree with your banning from our board. That post from Telsor was indeed a piss take so don't think he was serious.

 

[santa claws]

Ok i'll bite.

fb - jamison v rance. jamison is easily the best one v one kpd on either list- Jamison is a solid FB and you are right that he has the wood over Jack for some reason but seriously ? Jamision and Rance are two diffrent types of defenders. Jamision does not create run out of the back line like Rance. Jamison does not intercept mark like Rance. Jamison is a negative defender, he stops the player he is on regardless if he himself only gets 4 disposals. Rance is a attacking FB, he just does not sit on one person, he spreads, he attacks the ball and he runs out of the defensive 50.

chb - watson v chaplin. geez a 29yo v a junior 21yo- WOW, Chaplin is worth less due to his age ? lol. Chaplin intercept marking last year was elite. Do you even check the stats before you sprout this tripe ?

Bottom line our defense performed better then Carltons last year. Period. Any neutral would tell you that, our defense was rated the third best in the league last year, what was Carltons ?

chf - vickery v henderson well give me hendeson id prefer him at chb but it shows his versatility- Henderson is a great player but you are comparing a defender/forward to a ruck/forward. You also ignore that Hendo is older, has had more time in the system then Vickery. You also ignore Henderson had a brake out season in 2013 playing 24 games for 26 goals compared to Vickery who only played 21 games for 27 goals, ill take Vickery thanks.

ff - riewoldt v waite give me jack every time but waite is clearly the second best kpf on both clubs lists. - Agree, ill take Jack to thanks, as to waite being the second best kpf on both lists lol again your basing all this on your opinion, look at the numbers then come back.

ruck/for - kruezer v hampson. lol kruezer please.- How about comparing ruck for ruck, so Maric vs Kruezer ? Keep in mind, I actually rate Kruezer, he once his body is right will i believe become one of the most dominate big rucks in the game BUT for as it stands now, I would take Maric's last 3 seasons over him.

third tall - walker v grimes. andrew walker please- Walker plays third tall ? Grimes due to his body not holding up, I would take Walker too.

as i said im not being harsh or vindictive just honest and unbiased- I just think you might have Richmonities. You have gone through so many false dawns you are conditioned to be a lot more pessimistic on our club over others. I dont blame you for that, I am 41 and most of my adult life I have been served up shit BUT I do also reconise where we are at and what improvement we have made.

jamison v rance. - what is the primary role of your fb?. you got it stop your opponent. carlton can confidently leave jamison one out and expect him to win most times.you cant do that with rance. of course they are different i chose jamison over him because he fills the primary role of any f/b.id prefer it if rance could actually defend consistently well and we left the run and kicking to blokes who are actually very good users of the ball.


watson v chaplin - the 29 yo v 21yo comment was said primarily because i was asking how the hell do you compare a junior finding his feet against a 29 yo vet. of course chaolin is in front of watson. i have some real doubts about watson anyway.
i dunno if troy is a very good one v one defender either but he performs in tis area better than rance.

vickery v henderson - for starters henderson is basically 6mths older than vickery. henderson has played a lot in defense and performed well. when thrown forward hes again consistently performed well. in their roles as a kpf i would take henderson every day of the week. simply put hes been a far better player to date than the big pea heart.

riewoldt v waite - we agree its a no brainer. and yes waite is easily the best performed kpf on both lists outside of jack go look up the stats for yourself.
marks, contested marks, possesions tackles, ave goals per game waite is in front of every other contender bar jack.and hes in front of jack in plenty of these all of this from a bloke who has also spent significant time in defence.

kruezer v hampson.- im comparing a ruck forward to a ruck forward. carlton first ruckman is warnock. kruezer has spent significant time forward because of injuries. ffs there is no comparison between kruezer and hampson. i cant think of a more underwhelming player over 7 yrs than hampson.

warnock v maric - these are your first rucks. warnock imo is the better tap ruckman, but ivan is better when the ball hits the ground and around the ground.

walker v grimes - geez there is no comparison. heres a bloke who can go forward and kick 50 goals in a season. or go back and play the third tall role to perfection racking up possesions providing run and carry and defends well when required. its the grimeses and morrises that probably sees rance having to provide rebound because there is virtually nothing from morris and grimes.

as i said im not being harsh or vindictive just as honest as can be and unbiased. we differ on opinion about players but to suggest im over the top is stupid. id say a very high percentage of non richmond people would agree with what i have said.
if i have richmonities icertain too many have rose coloured infection.

 

[santa claws]

heres another way of looking at things what would a combined team look like. a positional team primarily based on performance and just a little allowance for potential. i have my preference about where players should play and i place a lot of credence on good structure. and please its an opinion of course some will disagree on positions or even who should play and shouldnt.i may even be just a little biased being a tiger supporter but im trying hard not to be.

B: Morris - Jamison - Chaplin/Rance. while he has weakesess i think morris in two yrs has performed exceptionally well as a shut down sml/med defender.he needs to add to his game though. take your pick between rance or chaplin as the third tall. maybe rance with his run.

HB: Vlastuin - Henderson - Gibbs. i know a lot of carlton people would not want gibbs at hb just imagine him as a mid and part of rotations with the likes of deledio ellis walker if need be. i chose vlastuin because hes going to be a ripper.

C: Martin - Judd - Deledio
R: Maric - Cotchin - Murphy. could make a strong case for warnock because of the type of ruckman he is. the rest speaks for itself.

HF: Garlett - Riewoldt - Thomas. garlett quite simply is the best sml forward on either list. daisy was a superb forward before he became very good mid. with his ankle might be a good way to play him for now. what a rotation hey..

F: Kruezer - waite - walker. kruezer imo is the best ruck/for option on either list. walker has kicked 50 plus goals when played forward at 190/90 he can play tall but mostly plays like a medium whos very hard to match up on. imo waite is the best kpf on either list outside of riewoldt. Its an all carlton line and highlights for me the lack of established and quality forwards at richmond.

Int: simpson - carazzo - ellis - and one of Scotland, Jackson - McClean, Conca.

if i could pick the top 25 or so players from both lists this is the way id go. if i had to pick 40 id be mainly filling the rest up with juniors.

 

[johnno77]

Are Carlton and Richmond merging?

 

[BM123]

I don't even know anymore.

 

[Hayes4PM]

North will go top 8, Carlton will make way for them. Essendon and Adelaide will naaaahhhhhht make the top 8.

 

[tazaa]

Simpson had a better season that virtually every player you listed, he did win Carlton's B&F after all. Going into 2014 I'd take him before Swallow (injury hampered season), Cunnington, Thomas, Harvey and Dal Santo at a minimum.

I hate Carlton more than almost anything else in the universe, but even I can admit that Kade Simpson is criminally underrated.

I rate Simpson too but 4 of those 5 players get tagged each game. Poor post.

 

[Tiger71]

jamison v rance. - what is the primary role of your fb?. you got it stop your opponent. carlton can confidently leave jamison one out and expect him to win most times.you cant do that with rance. of course they are different i chose jamison over him because he fills the primary role of any f/b.id prefer it if rance could actually defend consistently well and we left the run and kicking to blokes who are actually very good users of the ball.


watson v chaplin - the 29 yo v 21yo comment was said primarily because i was asking how the hell do you compare a junior finding his feet against a 29 yo vet. of course chaolin is in front of watson. i have some real doubts about watson anyway.
i dunno if troy is a very good one v one defender either but he performs in tis area better than rance.

vickery v henderson - for starters henderson is basically 6mths older than vickery. henderson has played a lot in defense and performed well. when thrown forward hes again consistently performed well. in their roles as a kpf i would take henderson every day of the week. simply put hes been a far better player to date than the big pea heart.

riewoldt v waite - we agree its a no brainer. and yes waite is easily the best performed kpf on both lists outside of jack go look up the stats for yourself.
marks, contested marks, possesions tackles, ave goals per game waite is in front of every other contender bar jack.and hes in front of jack in plenty of these all of this from a bloke who has also spent significant time in defence.

kruezer v hampson.- im comparing a ruck forward to a ruck forward. carlton first ruckman is warnock. kruezer has spent significant time forward because of injuries. ffs there is no comparison between kruezer and hampson. i cant think of a more underwhelming player over 7 yrs than hampson.

warnock v maric - these are your first rucks. warnock imo is the better tap ruckman, but ivan is better when the ball hits the ground and around the ground.

walker v grimes - geez there is no comparison. heres a bloke who can go forward and kick 50 goals in a season. or go back and play the third tall role to perfection racking up possesions providing run and carry and defends well when required. its the grimeses and morrises that probably sees rance having to provide rebound because there is virtually nothing from morris and grimes.

as i said im not being harsh or vindictive just as honest as can be and unbiased. we differ on opinion about players but to suggest im over the top is stupid. id say a very high percentage of non richmond people would agree with what i have said.
if i have richmonities icertain too many have rose coloured infection.

*scratches head*

Firstly mate, you are the one that was doing comparisons. I was just trying to add some balance to your negative view. I'll try again lol


Ok just on your Kreuzer/hampson comparison. I was not comparing them, you are. I think its silly to compare a starting 22 to a bit player. Just a tad unfair as ofcourse it will highlight Hampson in the negative. I agree with your thoughts on Hampson as a forward but as a ruck, even a neutral Carlton supporter would say, Hampson shows something. For time on the ground Hampson was number 1 in the comp for taps to advantage, also hampson has a good endurance to cover the ground and can JUMP. It is exactly what we need. We wont play Hampson forward, he will only go forward to create a miss match if we need to expose a side and ONLY if he is taking a rest.

Here is something for you, and I'll base these stats on our Loss

Ivan/Vickery: 35 hit-outs, 30 disposals, 8 marks, 7 tackles & 4 goals
Warnock/Kreuzer: 52 hit-outs, 10 disposals, 0 marks, 5 tackles & 1 goal.

That tells me, that we needed help badly to balance out the taps to advantage- hence Hampson is now on board. Hampson allows us flexibility, allows us to say stretch a side with two athletic big men who cover ground like tall mids- we go Hampson/Tyrone. Or we can go with smash and crash when needed and tap specialist who has a motor Maric/Hampson. It now allows us to match up against a side we are playing. Big O is now left where he should be in the ressies only to be used if either one of the 3 big blokes gets hurt. Your complete understanding of that stuns me.

Your opinion about Jamision again shows how little you know of our game plan. We do not need a 90's style negative lockdown full back. Our back 6 is set up differently to Carltons, our back 6 conceded less goals then carlton. I am happy of how Rance is developing. I am happy that our defensive set up had made us the third hardest team to score against last year. Keep in mind mate our back 6 is built around a team defense.

You knock Morris but then ignore he was second in the AFL for conceding less goals by a small defender. You knock Morris for locking down a small forward and not creating run but then applaud Jamision for doing exactly that, strange lol. Grimes on Walker considering how little grimes played this year, again is painting a biased picture...compare Walker to Houli. Houli plays back, plays the third defender role as often as walker but is a more offensive weapon. IMO I would take houli thanks.

lastly the watson v Chaplin comparison, is silly. As silly as comparing Grimes to Walker imo

 

[the big lebowski]

Your opinion about Jamision again shows how little you know of our game plan. We do not need a 90's style negative lockdown full back. Our back 6 is set up differently to Carltons, our back 6 conceded less goals then carlton. I am happy of how Rance is developing. I am happy that our defensive set up had made us the third hardest team to score against last year. Keep in mind mate our back 6 is built around a team defense.

Not trying to side track your debate, and my point has zero relevance on anything given it was just one game, but i watched the replay of North's 10 goal thumping of the Tigers a couple of days ago.

Richmond's tall defenders should have submitted their low lights of that game to funniest home videos. They kept jumping into each other and falling over, leaving North's big men to walk away and kick goal after goal.

twas very humerus. Anyway, carry on.

 

[Beer n Skittles]

Not trying to side track your debate, and my point has zero relevance on anything given it was just one game, but i watched the replay of North's 10 goal thumping of the Tigers a couple of days ago.

Richmond's tall defenders should have submitted their low lights of that game to funniest home videos. They kept jumping into each other and falling over, leaving North's big men to walk away and kick goal after goal.

twas very humerus. Anyway, carry on.

To be fair, Carlton have a tough time shutting down North's forwards too

 

[Donakebab]

I rate Simpson too but 4 of those 5 players get tagged each game. Poor post.

I don't think you understand what tagging is...

 

[the big lebowski]

To be fair, Carlton have a tough time shutting down North's forwards too

sure it wasn't relevant to the tigers blues discussion, just a funny observation from a recent viewing of the game.

You would have to see the incidents to fully appreciate how funny they were. it was like Benny Hill.

 

[Beer n Skittles]

I rate Simpson too but 4 of those 5 players get tagged each game. Poor post.

Last couple of years when he played a more offensive role Simpson was tagged too. He's generally seen as a better player now as a defender

 

[boncer34]

I rate Simpson too but 4 of those 5 players get tagged each game. Poor post.

Don't think you know what a tag is.

Having someone standing near them at the bounces around the ground doesn't mean their being tagged. It means they have an opponent.

 

[tazaa]

I don't think you understand what tagging is...

In Swallow, Harveys and Dals case yes they get tagged.
Thomas gets the best lock down defender each week due to how dangerous he is.

Last couple of years when he played a more offensive role Simpson was tagged too. He's generally seen as a better player now as a defender

Not doubting his ability as a player. But the above mentioned players are targeted week in week out. It was a poor post.

Don't think you know what a tag is.

Having someone standing near them at the bounces around the ground doesn't mean their being tagged. It means they have an opponent.

The above four mentioned players rarely 'just have an opponent stand next to them'.

 

[boncer34]

In Swallow, Harveys and Dals case yes they get tagged.
Thomas gets the best lock down defender each week due to how dangerous he is.


Not doubting his ability as a player. But the above mentioned players are targeted week in week out. It was a poor post.


The above four mentioned players rarely 'just have an opponent stand next to them'.

So a forward having a back on them is tagging in your opinion?

Yeah didn't think you knew what it meant.

 

[tazaa]

So a forward having a back on them is tagging in your opinion?

Yeah didn't think you knew what it meant.

I can generalise that Thomas having the best small defender lock down on him each week is a form of tagging to get my point across.
I generalised it. How you interpret it is up to you.

 

[Big_Luch]

*scratches head*

Grimes on Walker considering how little grimes played this year, again is painting a biased picture...compare Walker to Houli. Houli plays back, plays the third defender role as often as walker but is a more offensive weapon. IMO I would take houli thanks.

lastly the watson v Chaplin comparison, is silly. As silly as comparing Grimes to Walker imo

You are kidding you would prefer Houli over Walker? Walker is a better defender and provides run and fantastic disposal. Houli does these things but on a much lesser level.

 

[theflea]

Not trying to side track your debate, and my point has zero relevance on anything given it was just one game, but i watched the replay of North's 10 goal thumping of the Tigers a couple of days ago.

Richmond's tall defenders should have submitted their low lights of that game to funniest home videos. They kept jumping into each other and falling over, leaving North's big men to walk away and kick goal after goal.

twas very humerus. Anyway, carry on.

Just on that game( and some highlight no changes from the coaching staff all the time), the coaches stated before, during and after the game, the need to lower their eyes and look for the leading player instead of just bombing fwd and the players simply wouldn't follow instruction or pressured enough to not follow instruction which was why we had so many players competing for the same ball or had hanson intercept mark all the time. The players had a mare that day but all credit to the roos.

 

[Ambrosia]

You are kidding you would prefer Houli over Walker? Walker is a better defender and provides run and fantastic disposal. Houli does these things but on a much lesser level.

Walker is definitely better than Houli but the gap isn't anywhere near as big as you make out.

 

[theflea]

You are kidding you would prefer Houli over Walker? Walker is a better defender and provides run and fantastic disposal. Houli does these things but on a much lesser level.

Imo I would take Walker over Houli purely as over all he is a better player. Walker is a great mark which is the point of difference for me. I don't think he is however a better disposer of the ball or a defender of any note so call them similar in those categories but he i'd go Walker.

 

[eth-dog]

Imo I would take Walker over Houli purely as over all he is a better player. Walker is a great mark which is the point of difference for me. I don't think he is however a better disposer of the ball or a defender of any note so call them similar in those categories but he i'd go Walker.

I'd say that he's a slightly better defender, but that's just me

 

[Ambrosia]

Imo I would take Walker over Houli purely as over all he is a better player. Walker is a great mark which is the point of difference for me. I don't think he is however a better disposer of the ball or a defender of any note so call them similar in those categories but he i'd go Walker.

This however for me what really separates Walker from Houli is his willingness to use his pace to run and carry.