The Law Whose land are you occupying?

[Frank Bunn]

What are you talking about? Seeds said humans are conscious individuals but when I pointed out their our (oops ...shush) DNA looks at humans the way we look at transport devices he missed the point.

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant by 'Your DNA begs to differ'. How do DNA mechanisms relate to this discussion?

 

[ferball]

I think that is fair enough, but it's also fair to say that you need to strike a balance between looking backwards and looking forwards. I firmly believe you have to learn from history and I think there is much that has been discarded about indigenous culture that could add to modern Australia. But we cannot wind back the clock and reinstitute what was here before.

I appreciate that indigenous people were deprived of the freedom to modernise their culture on their own terms, jettisoning aspects that are out of step with the changing times, refreshing and renewing autonomously to ultimately fit a modern post-industrial society. Yet, here we are.

If non-indigenous Australians are generally regarded as lacking moral or historical standing to address the subject of indigenous cultural change, indigenous Australians need to take the lead. What does a modern indigenous culture operating effectively in a global world look like? What does it keep, and - perhaps more importantly - what does it get rid of? I don't really know, and I need someone to tell me so that I can help work towards it.

It's very difficult to have a conversation about cultural evolution when the focus is largely on the wrongs of destruction and loss.

I dunno if this answers your question... in Mindinao in The Philippines there is an indigenous group known as the Higaonon. They were granted autonomy over their traditional lands and faced ongoing threats, violence and incursions from logging and mining interests. Their attempted solution was to purchase a buffer zone of freehold/private title directly around their traditional lands to maintain control over access to them and turn these properties into farms usually practising some form of permaculture. These resources are used for food obviously and for financial benefit.

The Higaonon specifically want to protect their country and maintain it, ie they are greenies and they don't want their land disturbed. This is non negotiable. (Or was.) They basically want to keep everything they can as pristine bush because their culture is tied to the rainforest in the mountains of Northern Mindinao. Its their identity so it needs to be protected. They don't identify as Philippino primarily, they are Higaonon. Or even as consumers the way we do. They generate meaning from their relationship with the place they live in and their relationship with the way that place works. Ie how they interact with the flora, fauna and weather. They have a very complex understanding of the dynamics of the rainforest and that is why they were drawn to permaculture as a farming technique.

What do they keep and what do they get rid of?

I dunno you'd have to ask their leaders. But it seems clear they want to keep their mountain forests intact.

 

[ferball]

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant by 'Your DNA begs to differ'. How do DNA mechanisms relate to this discussion?

Have you been following Seeds saying that inheritance is a fundamentally racist concept? That all your goods should be given to the state when you die and that you shouldn't be able to will your property to your bloodline?

He said this:

Wrong, theyre dead great great relatives were displaced. Not those living today. This isnt f*** game of thrones where we stupidly believe that wealth and justice should be passed down bloodlines. Its moronic. if your grandfather murdered someone and got away with it should you be imprisoned for 30 years so justice can be passed down bloodlines. The concept is effing stupid.

humans are individuals. Not family blood lineages.

wake up people.

In response to the idea that property rights include being able to will your property to your kids (or anyone else for that matter.)

i disagree humans are just individuals, especially conscious ones. Most of our actions are unconscious and our conscious minds often make up post fact justifications for decisions we already made unconsciously. We are also the result of billions of years of evolution and wouldn't be capable of reaching adulthood or reproducing without a collective of some sort to keep us alive.

 

[Jello_B]

View attachment 1046965

Genuine question, what are they asking to be dismantled?

 

[juss]

No one alive now would have had a relative alive at the time of the first arrivals of the Europeans.

Given human civilisation is littered with thousands of years of war, conquered land, reclaimed land, etc. I do wonder at what point people alive today that had nothing to do with anything that occurred to the now passed hundreds of years ago will no longer be made to feel like they need to apologise, feel guilty, or that their born country with generations of family isn't their land.

 

[Chief]

No one alive now would have had a relative alive at the time of the first arrivals of the Europeans.

Given human civilisation is littered with thousands of years of war, conquered land, reclaimed land, etc. I do wonder at what point people alive today that had nothing to do with anything that occurred to the now passed hundreds of years ago will no longer be made to feel like they need to apologise, feel guilty, or that their born country with generations of family isn't their land.

It always comes down to “why are they trying to make us feel guilty”.

But it’s just recognising the reality of the situation. Understanding history.

 

[juss]

It always comes down to “why are they trying to make us feel guilty”.

But it’s just recognising the reality of the situation. Understanding history.

I understand history. Bad shit happened, it has for thousands of years across so many countries. My grandfather on my mother's side was shot in WW2. Thats far closer than what happened on the arrival of the Europeans, and there will undoubtedly be bad shit that happens in future generations.

My point is that with no living person today having any relative that would have been alive at the time, who is harbouring feelings and where are they directed? Are they directed at descendants who had nothing to do with what occurred centuries ago?

At what point do we acknowledge the atrocities but recognise that things go on? We've had to do that with far closer atrocities than what happened hundreds of years ago.

 

[Chief]

My point is that with no living person today having any relative that would have been alive at the time, who is harbouring feelings and where are they directed? Are they directed at descendants who had nothing to do with what occurred centuries ago?

There are still people from the stolen generations alive today. Their children, grandkids... all alive.

You don’t understand the history. I don’t fully understand it.


1897

The Aboriginal Protection and Restriction of the Sale of Opium Act (Qld) allows the Chief Protector to remove local Aboriginal people onto and between reserves and hold children in dormitories. Until 1965 the Director of Native Welfare is the legal guardian of all 'aboriginal' children whether their parents are living or not.

• A copy and description of the Act: http://foundingdocs.gov.au/item-sdid-54.html

 

[Taylor]

The issue is actually that those alive today don't have a connection to those back then.

It's unfortunate that there wasn't a single unified culture and language across the entire continent, it has meant local groups have seen their connection to their history and via that their own identities lost in the sands of time. Cultures passing down tradition and language to their children only needs a generation to miss and it's gone, it's never the same again.

That's where we are living now. Indigenous people know they are Australian and Indigenous but that which makes them different and special is also that which is missing the most connection. How can you not feel like you've lost something? You are born missing part of who you are.

The people today don't hold any blame for that disconnect and the only thing that can be done is to recognise that something of infinite value was crippled and lost for all time, protect what remains and perhaps launch a case against the English for their actions prior to Janurary 1, 1901.

 

[Chief]

The issue is actually that those alive today don't have a connection to those back then.

Sorry I don’t quite get it. Back when? In 1788?

 

[Taylor]

Sorry I don’t quite get it. Back when? In 1788?

Exactly.

If you think of colonisation as a disruption of a continuous transfer and nurturing of a culture then that is the point at which the connection to a rich, vibrant and complete cultural history and identity began to slip away.

 

[juss]

There are still people from the stolen generations alive today. Their children, grandkids... all alive.

You don’t understand the history. I don’t fully understand it.


1897

The Aboriginal Protection and Restriction of the Sale of Opium Act (Qld) allows the Chief Protector to remove local Aboriginal people onto and between reserves and hold children in dormitories. Until 1965 the Director of Native Welfare is the legal guardian of all 'aboriginal' children whether their parents are living or not.

• A copy and description of the Act: http://foundingdocs.gov.au/item-sdid-54.html

The specific history isn't what I am debating, fully accept there were terrible atrocities (as there have been through history, much more recent than this too).

My point, no one alive today has a relative that was alive in the late 1700s.

All things considered, change the date of AD, I'd be in support of that. For me, there's no reason not to, but others may feel differently.

However speaking of people today and land and whatnot, theres no reason anyone today should feel guilty or less of an Australian because they were born here and stuff happened centuries ago that no one alive today experienced, was responsible for, or even has a relative that experienced it.

That's the history of human civilisation, theres some horrible occurances.

 

[Taylor]

You could certainly think about it like that if you're f***ing stupid.

I'll let the indigenous people who told me that know the small old white guy thinks their thoughts on it are f***ing stupid.

That'll fix it.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Genuine question, what are they asking to be dismantled?

Racism, Inequality, Theft, Genocide.....do you need more?

 

[Minka Beaver]

I think that is fair enough, but it's also fair to say that you need to strike a balance between looking backwards and looking forwards. I firmly believe you have to learn from history and I think there is much that has been discarded about indigenous culture that could add to modern Australia. But we cannot wind back the clock and reinstitute what was here before.

I appreciate that indigenous people were deprived of the freedom to modernise their culture on their own terms, jettisoning aspects that are out of step with the changing times, refreshing and renewing autonomously to ultimately fit a modern post-industrial society. Yet, here we are.

If non-indigenous Australians are generally regarded as lacking moral or historical standing to address the subject of indigenous cultural change, indigenous Australians need to take the lead. What does a modern indigenous culture operating effectively in a global world look like? What does it keep, and - perhaps more importantly - what does it get rid of? I don't really know, and I need someone to tell me so that I can help work towards it.

It's very difficult to have a conversation about cultural evolution when the focus is largely on the wrongs of destruction and loss.

That's changing. It may not be promoted widely, but universities in particular are providing opportunities for Indigenous Australian culture and knowledge to be applied to contemporary Australian issues, especially those domains where Indigenous practices have not been recognised well enough (e.g. environmental management or health). Finding the right partnerships with government departments, industry and NGOs is often tricky, but there's progress being made. It will just -as with most changes - be incremental rather than dramatic.

 

[Caesar]

That's changing. It may not be promoted widely, but universities in particular are providing opportunities for Indigenous Australian culture and knowledge to be applied to contemporary Australian issues, especially those domains where Indigenous practices have not been recognised well enough (e.g. environmental management or health). Finding the right partnerships with government departments, industry and NGOs is often tricky, but there's progress being made. It will just -as with most changes - be incremental rather than dramatic.

That’s awesome, but the flip side is cultural sacrifice and that’s harder to discuss

The idea that (even with the best of engagement from non-indigenous society) there may be some elements of indigenous culture that are and always will be fundamentally incompatible with the modern world is the elephant in the room

I don’t know how you start and pursue that discussion without it veering into perceived or real racism and cultural erasure

 

[Ben The Donkey]

The issue is actually that those alive today don't have a connection to those back then.

It's unfortunate that there wasn't a single unified culture and language across the entire continent, it has meant local groups have seen their connection to their history and via that their own identities lost in the sands of time. Cultures passing down tradition and language to their children only needs a generation to miss and it's gone, it's never the same again.

That's where we are living now. Indigenous people know they are Australian and Indigenous but that which makes them different and special is also that which is missing the most connection. How can you not feel like you've lost something? You are born missing part of who you are.

The people today don't hold any blame for that disconnect and the only thing that can be done is to recognise that something of infinite value was crippled and lost for all time, protect what remains and perhaps launch a case against the English for their actions prior to January 1, 1901.

It's worthwhile considering that this is a phenomenon not confined to indigenous cultures.

The most recent example in Australia (and elsewhere in the Anglicized world) being the systemic deconstruction of English or European historical and cultural identity at the hands of socialistic (Abrahamic) thought; oddly enough their own, in many cases. "Cultural Suicide" is a term being thrown around frequently enough to take note of, as it represents a shift in social evolution from being conquered by outside agency, to one of self-destruction and internal turmoil.

The British themselves are a people whose cultural identity has been demolished and rebuilt several times over the course of history - at the hands of Celts, Germanic, Norse, and Norman (Norse/French) cultures, to the point now where what it means to be British has also been largely lost other than in historical accounts of ancient lore and traditions, including language. The British had their own "dreamtime" too - represented in stories of pixies, elves, giants and Druids... and a connection to country as spiritual in nature as that the Aboriginals claim.
Even the term "British" itself has come to mean something else - the terms English and British are now more or less interchangeable, but once had a nuance of meaning and were used to denote separate peoples, a meaning little understood in modern times.

The longing for a place in the world, a homogeneous culture, the deep-seated feeling that something has been lost or taken away, and the "connection" you mentioned is not solely confined to indigenous groups, and that is socially evident in the rise of political groups seeking to preserve their own origins in the face of that socially-enabled systemic destruction. I've made the point several times now that those organizations based upon "White Pride" are not necessarily about supremacy, but more one of preservation - a reaction to social pressure. They have not appeared in a vacuum.

I'd say that the Aboriginal desire for a cultural connect is exactly the same one that gives rise to groups like the Proud Boys. Yet we are sympathetic to one and not the other.

 

[Minka Beaver]

That’s awesome, but the flip side is cultural sacrifice and that’s harder to discuss

The idea that (even with the best of engagement from non-indigenous society) there may be some elements of indigenous culture that are and always will be fundamentally incompatible with the modern world is the elephant in the room

I don’t know how you start and pursue that discussion without it veering into perceived or real racism and cultural erasure

I don't know either (I'm not Indigenous and just looking in from the outside), but I could imagine that sensitivities would emerge when large parts of a culture have been eradicated - people have a tendency to want to hold on to what remains, regardless of its appropriateness, fairness etc.

Tribal law is a big domain in this respect.

 

[Chief]

My point, no one alive today has a relative that was alive in the late 1700s.

No, but this is not really relevant. The effects of the British invasion are still felt today.

 

[faible]

Racism, Inequality, Theft, Genocide.....do you need more?

That wasn't the question.

What should be dismantled? The quote you posted mentions systems of oppression; what are they?

 

[Baltimore Jack]

That wasn't the question.

What should be dismantled? The quote you posted mentions systems of oppression; what are they?

Oh, I see, you don't see those things are oppressive

Hmm, that's kind of interesting in itself

 

[rank and file]

LOL ... Most humans aren't conscious.

Not conscious but woke,the achievable state that everyone can share.

 

[Corpuscles]

No, but this is not really relevant. The effects of the British invasion are still felt today.

True

Over the recent century , Greeks Italians, Ten pound Brits, Indians , Chinese, Sudanese , people of almost every nationality has joined a long immigration wait list to get to Australia to gain the benefits. Many escaping racism, oppression, war, etc.
Until recently many were prepared to risk their lives on leaky overcrowded unsafe boats to try and get here anyway they possibly could!!!!!

But there is a minority of Australian's who yearn for an impossible to restore past and moan about it. These are folk that have some trace of genetics , some few even might be completely, genetically linked, to the original inhabitants .
They want all Australians, even the new ones to give them special privileges' even though they were not the perpetrators as they are long gone and are a completely separate nation.
They cannot be happy and pleased like all the rest and proud to belong and be participating Australians.

Many atrocious things were done in the past. We all can only learn from past mistakes . Anti discrimination and anti racism laws put in place, opportunity to seek to preserve and or claim sacred sites, one of the best social welfare safety nets on the planet , and billion$ spent each year on this minority to assist them climb out of their bitter despondency and angst.

But no...... they cannot stand Australia celebrating itself of being one of the luckiest free places of opportunity on earth. They want to bitterly remember and complain something that happened over 200 years ago instead,. No matter what the date, many would still all whine on 26th January each year

Disproportionate representation in jail as law breakers, serious societal and moral problems , they find an excuse for that and blame that being 200 years ago!

They do not know what they want:

Some say a treaty. But that opportunity has long past. The "owners" are long dead the perps dead and not part of Australia
Some want a special voice in parliament, but they have absolutely equal rights to become representatives Some have managed that already.
Some want money for nothing more than their skin shade or some minor genetic component of their modern makeup.

Mainly they just want to make an excuse for being UNHAPPY! and wish to promote racial discriminations' for their own selfish benefit.

 

[ferball]

Exactly.

If you think of colonisation as a disruption of a continuous transfer and nurturing of a culture then that is the point at which the connection to a rich, vibrant and complete cultural history and identity began to slip away.

That isn't the case for everyone, neither is it the case that this sort of oppression etc has stopped.

The specific history isn't what I am debating, fully accept there were terrible atrocities (as there have been through history, much more recent than this too).

My point, no one alive today has a relative that was alive in the late 1700s.

All things considered, change the date of AD, I'd be in support of that. For me, there's no reason not to, but others may feel differently.

However speaking of people today and land and whatnot, theres no reason anyone today should feel guilty or less of an Australian because they were born here and stuff happened centuries ago that no one alive today experienced, was responsible for, or even has a relative that experienced it.

Imagine if a bunch of aboriginal men drove around a campground full of white people scaring them, firing replica weapons then jumped out of the vehicle and kicked one of them to death ten years ago in Alice. Would they have been free for 8 or 9 years in some cases? If you think the answer is yes then look at what happened with Josh Warneke's death.

If this shit was all in the past no one indigenous people would care. (Obviously very few non indigenous people care enough to notice these days.)

 

[ferball]

True

Over the recent century , Greeks Italians, Ten pound Brits, Indians , Chinese, Sudanese , people of almost every nationality has joined a long immigration wait list to get to Australia to gain the benefits. Many escaping racism, oppression, war, etc.
Until recently many were prepared to risk their lives on leaky overcrowded unsafe boats to try and get here anyway they possibly could!!!!!

But there is a minority of Australian's who yearn for an impossible to restore past and moan about it. These are folk that have some trace of genetics , some few even might be completely, genetically linked, to the original inhabitants .
They want all Australians, even the new ones to give them special privileges' even though they were not the perpetrators as they are long gone and are a completely separate nation.
They cannot be happy and pleased like all the rest and proud to belong and be participating Australians.

Many atrocious things were done in the past. We all can only learn from past mistakes . Anti discrimination and anti racism laws put in place, opportunity to seek to preserve and or claim sacred sites, one of the best social welfare safety nets on the planet , and billion$ spent each year on this minority to assist them climb out of their bitter despondency and angst.

But no...... they cannot stand Australia celebrating itself of being one of the luckiest free places of opportunity on earth. They want to bitterly remember and complain something that happened over 200 years ago instead,. No matter what the date, many would still all whine on 26th January each year

Disproportionate representation in jail as law breakers, serious societal and moral problems , they find an excuse for that and blame that being 200 years ago!

They do not know what they want:

Some say a treaty. But that opportunity has long past. The "owners" are long dead the perps dead and not part of Australia
Some want a special voice in parliament, but they have absolutely equal rights to become representatives Some have managed that already.
Some want money for nothing more than their skin shade or some minor genetic component of their modern makeup.

Mainly they just want to make an excuse for being UNHAPPY! and wish to promote racial discriminations' for their own selfish benefit.

Elijah Doughty agrees. (Well he might if he was still alive.)




That's the way bro, kick them out of your well.