Expansion Why AFL fails miserably in Queensland

[ringleader]

Bugger off troll.

Yes I'm the troll. Typical comment from another self proclaimed Queensland expert that lives in Sydney.

 

[Colonial]

Yes I'm the troll. Typical comment from another self proclaimed Queensland expert that lives in Sydney.

Never said i was a canetoad expert.

Just stating some facts as per the whole post
The only issue is both teams being at the bottom of the table.

 

[QuietB]

I think another thing to consider is this. If the AFL started another team in Melbourne tomorrow, who would support it? How long would it take to get 25k members? The answers are no one and forever.

Sydney took 25 years. There is no reason why GWS and Gold Coast will not take the same, and what are they, 3/4 years old. It is ridiculous to expect that would have established support by now.

 

[Sausages]

I think another thing to consider is this. If the AFL started another team in Melbourne tomorrow, who would support it? How long would it take to get 25k members? The answers are no one and forever.

Sydney took 25 years. There is no reason why GWS and Gold Coast will not take the same, and what are they, 3/4 years old. It is ridiculous to expect that would have established support by now.

That's a bloody good point QuietB, and one I hadn't really considered. Thanks for that mate

 

[markr]

One of the weirdest things about moving to Brisbane (been here 20 years now and love the place) was discovering that a small subset of the city still gave a shit about where they went to school 10 or 20 years after they left. The even more amazing thing was that they seemed to think that _you_ would also give a shit.

 

[Roylion]

The then Bears and the AFL made another questionable decision over the "merger" - though that's another issue entirely, the salient point is the Bears had JUST started to make some inroads into the Brisbane market on their own before seeing dollar signs and flags. This further alienated the wavering supporter base.

Did it?

In 1996 the Brisbane Bears membership was 10,627 and the average home crowd at the Gabba was 18,088

In 1997 after their rebranding, the Brisbane Bears/Lions membership increased to 16,679 (including 3,200 Victorian members) and their average home crowd was 19,950.

Their lowest membership after 1997, was the very next year which was 16,108. Current 2015 membership is currently the eighth highest since 1997 at 24,494.

 

[Sausages]

Did it?

In 1996 the Brisbane Bears membership was 10,627 and the average home crowd at the Gabba was 18,088

In 1997 after their rebranding, the Brisbane Bears/Lions membership increased to 16,679 (including 3,200 Victorian members) and their average home crowd was 19,950.

Their lowest membership after 1997, was the very next year which was 16,108. Current 2015 membership is currently the eighth highest since 1997 at 24,494.

My argument is less to do with membership numbers and more to do with public/community perception Roy. Members are little more stoic - the average punter though is far less loyal.

 

[Roylion]

My argument is less to do with membership numbers and more to do with public/community perception Roy. Members are little more stoic - the average punter though is far less loyal.

But what evidence do you have that the 'merger' "further alienated the wavering supporter base", other than anecdotal evidence?

From what I can see, after the 'merger', more Queenslanders joined the Lions as members and more Queenslanders started going to games.

 

[Sausages]

But what evidence do you have that the 'merger' "further alienated the wavering supporter base", other than anecdotal evidence?

From what I can see, after the 'merger', more Queenslanders joined the Lions as members and more Queenslanders started going to games.

So we are hanging our hats on a 14k increase in 19 years and calling it satisfactory?

The population in Brisbane, according to census data, in 1996 was about 1.68 million. In 2001 it had increased by about 130k. It is now just over 2 million people. So with a growth, solely in the area defined as Brisbane, of around 350k people.....and we get 10k members.....I'd say that's, at best, a stalemate. I'm sure people will go ahead and do the maths That's why judging a club's health and well-being on purely membership and crowd figures is misleading. How many members of Collingwood are full paying members? 70, 80, 100k members sounds great - but if they are $50 a throw, it doesn't seem quite so impressive.

Yes, much of my sentiments are apocryphal, something I stated elsewhere and I make no apology for that. The simple reality is this - since becoming a Bears fan in 87, then later a member, and still a member - never met a single other member outside of here, or at the Ground. Never even MET another Lion's fan outside that sphere.

Market penetration is about your product reaching every home. Sustainability is about how much of that penetration yields fruit.

 

[Tas]

I think another thing to consider is this. If the AFL started another team in Melbourne tomorrow, who would support it? How long would it take to get 25k members? The answers are no one and forever.

Sydney took 25 years. There is no reason why GWS and Gold Coast will not take the same, and what are they, 3/4 years old. It is ridiculous to expect that would have established support by now.

I don't think the Swans are in a significant better position off-field, if it wasn't for the sustained level of on-field relative success then they would be in the same boat as Brisbane. Everyone looks good, or better, when they are flying on-field. AFL has made more of an effort to ensure Sydney doesn't slide.

You just have to read Paul Roos' comments during their lean couple of seasons, the one in which they picked up Rohan specifically, he all but said AFL would have to intervene if the Swans couldn't get themselves up the top on their own merit.

We can't have both a fair and honest competition and keep the false economy alive.

 

[Kwality]

Bugger off troll.

Its about having a choice. Weird that the lions draw slightly less than the broncos even though its supposed league and union heartland and the lions are last.

Fair point General.

 

[Sausages]

I think it was one of first respondents who added "Kulcha" to the thread.

I'd go further - Psyche. We aren't in the psyche of Brisbane, I'd argue the same for the other 3 expansion clubs as well. I don't need to talk with you about footy clubs and psyche of Vic/SA/WA clubs. We should be striving for THAT, not simply getting dollars from the AFL to survive.

This isn't a specific issue confined to the expansion clubs - all clubs will ultimately face the same issues, as the AFL waters down these concepts in the pursuit of more dollars. It is simply that traditional footy states have a fabric to fall back on.

 

[Colonial]

Fair point General.

Just to add. There are just 2 nrl teams in sth east qld (not including the cowboys, north qld has proven they are nuts for league) and 2 in afl and yet the afl outdraw league... with both teams last.....

 

[Sausages]

Just to add. There are just 2 nrl teams in sth east qld (not including the cowboys, north qld has proven they are nuts for league) and 2 in afl and yet the afl outdraw league... with both teams last.....

League has always drawn average crowds, largely due to the paucity of action on the field - it seems a far better game on TV than it does live. Footy is the reverse - good on TV, much better live.

And look, if the conclusion we reach after all this "Brisbaneites/S-E QLD'ers don't care much for sport".....then why the f*** birth two footy clubs here, in a fringe-supported sport?

 

[Roylion]

So we are hanging our hats on a 14k increase in 19 years and calling it satisfactory?

No. I said nothing of the sort.

I'm asking what you have to back up your statement that the 'merger ' "further alienated the wavering supporter base", other than anecdotal evidence? Are you suggesting that the Brisbane Bears would be better supported today in Queensland?

Yes, much of my sentiments are apocryphal, something I stated elsewhere and I make no apology for that. The simple reality is this - since becoming a Bears fan in 87, then later a member, and still a member - never met a single other member outside of here, or at the Ground. Never even MET another Lion's fan outside that sphere.

Market penetration is about your product reaching every home. Sustainability is about how much of that penetration yields fruit.

That's all well and good, but I don't think the Brisbane Bears rebranding themselves as the Brisbane Lions via a 'merger' has much to do with the relative strength of AFL in Queensland at all.

 

[master bate]

So we are hanging our hats on a 14k increase in 19 years and calling it satisfactory?

The population in Brisbane, according to census data, in 1996 was about 1.68 million. In 2001 it had increased by about 130k. It is now just over 2 million people. So with a growth, solely in the area defined as Brisbane, of around 350k people.....and we get 10k members.....I'd say that's, at best, a stalemate. I'm sure people will go ahead and do the maths That's why judging a club's health and well-being on purely membership and crowd figures is misleading. How many members of Collingwood are full paying members? 70, 80, 100k members sounds great - but if they are $50 a throw, it doesn't seem quite so impressive.

Yes, much of my sentiments are apocryphal, something I stated elsewhere and I make no apology for that. The simple reality is this - since becoming a Bears fan in 87, then later a member, and still a member - never met a single other member outside of here, or at the Ground. Never even MET another Lion's fan outside that sphere.

Market penetration is about your product reaching every home. Sustainability is about how much of that penetration yields fruit.

So 30k members/regular fans when things are going well in a city of 2 mil is obviously going to mean that the chances of living next door to another Brisbane fan is pretty unlikely. Yet I still find this hard to believe. A couple of questions;

1) If the numbers are good what does it matter? Ok so there's no water cooler footy chat. But You can use online forums or chat to the friends you make at games.

2) Are there sub groups - local footy clubs, junior footy clubs, certain suburbs that do have a stronger representation?

 

[Sausages]

No. I said nothing of the sort.

I'm asking what you have to back up your statement that the 'merger ' "further alienated the wavering supporter base", other than anecdotal evidence? Are you suggesting that the Brisbane Bears would be better supported today in Queensland?



That's all well and good, but I don't think the Brisbane Bears rebranding themselves as the Brisbane Lions via a 'merger' has much to do with the relative strength of AFL in Queensland at all.

You posited figures arguing a counter position. Apologies for misinterpreting the thrust of your argument


I only need look at the local newspaper to see where we rank as far as media interest goes up here. Insofar as the merger is concerned - I would have preferred the Lions to stay and the Bears to stay. I think the Bears were JUST beginning to get some solid local interest, but that's history.

And regarding your last point - that pretty much sums up my position. The relative strength of AFL, if you use the Lions' membership and crowd figures as your sole guide, is almost totally irrelevant. What IS relevant is the apocryphal stuff - y'know, the stuff theoretical physicists work with (this is what seems to be happening) - hopping into a cab at the airport and saying "How about those Lions?" or any number of small interactions we have on a daily basis with people.

Or looking at the junior footy participation rates, or the health of local footy clubs.....all of these things, they effect ALL clubs, not just expansion clubs. And I feel it is in direct relation to the "money trumps all" approach of the game's administrators.

 

[Roylion]

You posited figures arguing a counter position. Apologies for misinterpreting the thrust of your argument

I did. I don't think the 'merger' itself "further alienated the wavering supporter base" at all, as you stated that it did. That's why I'm asking what you based your statement on.

Insofar as the merger is concerned - I would have preferred the Lions to stay and the Bears to stay. I think the Bears were JUST beginning to get some solid local interest, but that's history.

And from the figures we have, the Lions maintained that solid, local interest into 1997 and beyond.

 

[Suns of Anarchy]

Honestly, who cares about Queensland? Shut both clubs down imo.

Geelong's 3 home games in 2015 have averaged 22,000 per game. Last year it was 34,000 per game..... Gee I wonder where they've gone.

 

[screech]

B: S Gilbert D Merrett L Spurr
HB: C Dempsey R Thompson J Harbrow
C: B Whitecross T Bell C Beams
HF: R Petterd N Riewoldt J White
F: D Zorko K Tippett C Dixon
R: Z Smith D Beams D Armitage
Int: A Raines D Hale A Oxley J Thomas
Emg: S Hampson L McGuane M Jones

Went "home" to Sydney

 

[Engimal]

3 flags in 3 years and the Lions are still failing?

Tasmania hasn't even had a team in the top league in the 150+ years we've been following the sport and yet it's still our #1 sport.

Make the call, Gill. Fold the Lions, give us a team.

 

[Doc Hattori]

Being a Queenslander born and bred, here is an excerpt from a letter I have sent the AFL Chief Executive...

- well, your product fades into obscurity."

You obviously learned to write well at your GPS school but you didn't learn to think critically.

The whole strategy is to build AFL in Qld from the ground up. This is a long term battle funded by TV rights and a desire to become a truly national sport.

The Wallabies are getting less and less relevant. Crowds are down. League has limited opportunities unless you're a big meat head.

Soccer and AFL are on the rise. Sure the GPS schools honour their students who have made the grade in Rugby and Cricket etc. However that's not to say that students parents won't vote with their feet in the future and choose to play AFL. The Academies are going brilliantly and the AFL and supporters have a lot to be proud of as Australian Rules builds in Qld.

 

[fabulousphil]

I agree with the OP, AFL is failing ATM in QLD.

However Australian football is doing just fine ATM in QLD.

Problem is, he thinks one is the other, they are not.

 

[screech]

ah yes the old lets count the the same money just about everybody gets as a handout for the swans
at least bay 13 understands what a troll is.
for you dead shits that actually don't understand:

Looks to me St Kilda & the Bulldogs are close to unviable.

Never should have had a place in a national competition over clubs like Norwood etc

 

[Colonial]

League has always drawn average crowds, largely due to the paucity of action on the field - it seems a far better game on TV than it does live. Footy is the reverse - good on TV, much better live.

And look, if the conclusion we reach after all this "Brisbaneites/S-E QLD'ers don't care much for sport".....then why the f*** birth two footy clubs here, in a fringe-supported sport?

Either your a union/league troll or just plain stupid. I await your further posts here to decide which