Opinion Why are the interstate teams so bad? How do we fix them?

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Out of the last 15 years only two non Victorian teams have won the premiership

Why are the Melbourne based teams so much more dominant?

How do we help/fix the interstate teams?

Why cherry pick 15 years as the base case? Oh that’s right, so you can ignore the dominance of west coast Adelaide and Brisbane in the 15 years prior to that.

Next week a team chasing its second premiership since 1954 will be playing a team chasing its first since 1964. Obviously they havent benefitted too much over the years from being a Victorian team….

It’s swings and roundabouts but pro rata West Coast Brisbane and Sydney have been just as successful over the years of a full national competition as most of the Melbourne clubs. The Suns and GWS are still new clubs finding their feet. Fremantle are way overdue but did play in a GF recently.

So the question really seems to be, why are the South Australian clubs so bad.

 

[doppleganger]

What are you on about now. Non Victorian clubs play 10 games every year with an advantage and 10 with a disadvantage. We don’t benefit from a net surplus of home games, it’s always balanced. Covid changed this.

As I said, non-Melbourne teams get 9 or 10 home games with a full blown home advantage.

But they don't face the same disadvantage in their 10 away games.

Victorian clubs get more or less home ground advantage than non Victorian clubs depending on the fixture.

The teams which benefit from more games with an advantage are Victorian clubs.

LoL...which Melbourne team has 10 games with an advantage??

In 2019 - the last unaffected full h&a season - North played 10 games with an advantage and only 7 with a disadvantage, while Hawthorn went at 11 games with an advantage, and only being disadvantaged in 8 games. Go look at the 2019 fixture and tell me which non Victorian teams top that.

LoL

Of course they did, that is because you think Hawthorn have three home grounds.

They play at Etihad against Gold Coast, both teams played their 4th game there for the season....somehow you think that is the same advantage that Gold Coast receive when they play at home.

Hawthorn travel to Tassie to play Port. Isn't travel a disadvantage? But nup you consider this another home game.

If you can't grasp how an advantage is reduced when a team has to travel, or is not more familiar at a ground, fans and players aren't "defending their home turf", the psychology is different....there is no hope for you.

But that is the Eagles fan position.

Eagles play Hawks at Optus
Hawks host Eagles at Etihad - both teams playing their 3rd game at Etihad for the year.

The advantages aren't balanced, Eagles clearly ahead in the ledger as they actually have a home advantage...whilst Hawks just host at a random venue that both teams are equally as familiar with.

Eagles host Melbourne at Optus
Melbourne host Eagles in return game in Darwin

Another scenario where you geniuses think advantages are equal.

in 2015 Collingwood were disadvantaged in 6 games vs lions, suns, dockers, power, bulldogs , swans and advantaged in 7 games overall vs crows, saints, cats x2, giants, Eagles, Roos

Crows and Eagles played just as many games as us at Etihad.

WC actually had a win against Collingwood at Etihad in 2015, we owned you at the G in that period...makes sense as we have a home advantage at the G. But yes because the Eagles didn't actually have to play a Melbourne team at their home ground (the reduced away disadvantage) they snuck a win at Etihad.

In 2015 Hawthorn played Port twice, 1st up at Adelaide Oval where a close fought game Port won by a kick...that home ground advantage comes in handy.

In the return leg, hang on it wasn't at Hawthorn's home ground the G, it was at Etihad. Port played at Etihad just as much as Hawthorn in 2015, Port again won another close one....

How the feck does that work?

It is meant to be home and away - Port gets Hawthorn at home, but then plays them at a ground they are both as familiar with in the second leg...a clear advantage to Port??

Guess which team finished 1/2 a game ahead of Hawthorn on H/A ladder in 2015...wonder if your getting it yet?

The results speak for themselves...non-Melbourne teams jag an extra win or two...ie WC in 2015, and then their fans think they have "earnt" more advantages.

It is because the Melbourne teams have seen their home ground advantage reduced as a result of ground rationalisation in Melbourne.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

What are you on about now. Non Victorian clubs play 10 games every year with an advantage and 10 with a disadvantage. We don’t benefit from a net surplus of home games, it’s always balanced. Covid changed this.

Victorian clubs get more or less home ground advantage than non Victorian clubs depending on the fixture.

The teams which benefit from more games with an advantage are Victorian clubs.

In 2019 - the last unaffected full h&a season - North played 10 games with an advantage and only 7 with a disadvantage, while Hawthorn went at 11 games with an advantage, and only being disadvantaged in 8 games. Go look at the 2019 fixture and tell me which non Victorian teams top that.

in 2015 Collingwood were disadvantaged in 6 games vs lions, suns, dockers, power, bulldogs , swans and advantaged in 7 games overall vs crows, saints, cats x2, giants, Eagles, Roos

In 2015 Collingwood benefited from an extra game with hga while non Victorian clubs were balanced overall as usual. Goes to show how good you have it when you have to dig up a season from 7 years ago to make a case, and even then you were better off than the rest of us. FMD.

Victorian clubs playing each other at either Melbourne ground are playing at a neutral venue. If you can’t agree that base case then there’s no point pursuing the argument.

Interstate clubs with 9 games every year with genuine interstate home ground advantage will find it easier to make finals than Victorian clubs with only 2-3 home games against interstate visitors. Victorian clubs need to win a lot more 50/50 neutral ground games to make up the difference. ( obviously this number is slightly distorted for teams playing at home in Launceston but they still don’t come close to 9 home state advantage games, and the advantage is arguable because they have to travel to get there). Geelong is also an exception but that hasn’t turned into flags for them lately either)

Of course this all goes out the window in 2020 and 2021…. Yet despite the hardships of hubs and lockdowns being harshest on Victorian clubs over the past two years, they have made the grand finals whilst Brisbane and Port enjoying the spoils of freedom have failed when it mattered. Go figure.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

Swings & Roundabouts.

15 years ago the Vics were calling for a Royal Commission into the state of football in Victoria because the interstate sides occupied the top 6 positions.

Travel's always going to be a factor against interstate sides in regards to longevity of veteran players, especially for Freo and WCE. Plenty of ideas around hubbing in Vic for 2-3 games for interstate sides, which I think could be good in the long run. Sure, it's more time away from family but the impact of travel will be lessened and made up for by longer runs of games at home during the season.

Surely COVID is a much needed game changer on this. Many Victorian sides have thrived in the hubs, and the players seem to have really enjoyed the lifestyle around being away from home for a few weeks. It’s difficult for a few of the players with young families but these are still in the minority, and if hubbing becomes normal the players will adjust accordingly (ie maybe wait longer to have kids, etc). The advantage of course then is potentially getting to spend more consecutive weeks without having to leave home (which of course you also get during the off season), combined with the improved support clubs will offer to players and their partners/families etc in managing the on/off cycles if hubs do become more standard.

And of course for national teams and individual sports (tennis, swimming, etc) this is standard practice.

 

[bh90210fan]

As I said, non-Melbourne teams get 9 or 10 home games with a full blown home advantage.

But they don't face the same disadvantage in their 10 away games.

LoL...which Melbourne team has 10 games with an advantage??


LoL

Of course they did, that is because you think Hawthorn have three home grounds.

They play at Etihad against Gold Coast, both teams played their 4th game there for the season....somehow you think that is the same advantage that Gold Coast receive when they play at home.

Hawthorn travel to Tassie to play Port. Isn't travel a disadvantage? But nup you consider this another home game.

If you can't grasp how an advantage is reduced when a team has to travel, or is not more familiar at a ground, fans and players aren't "defending their home turf", the psychology is different....there is no hope for you.

But that is the Eagles fan position.

Eagles play Hawks at Optus
Hawks host Eagles at Etihad - both teams playing their 3rd game at Etihad for the year.

The advantages aren't balanced, Eagles clearly ahead in the ledger as they actually have a home advantage...whilst Hawks just host at a random venue that both teams are equally as familiar with.

Eagles host Melbourne at Optus
Melbourne host Eagles in return game in Darwin

Another scenario where you geniuses think advantages are equal.


Crows and Eagles played just as many games as us at Etihad.

WC actually had a win against Collingwood at Etihad in 2015, we owned you at the G in that period...makes sense as we have a home advantage at the G. But yes because the Eagles didn't actually have to play a Melbourne team at their home ground (the reduced away disadvantage) they snuck a win at Etihad.

In 2015 Hawthorn played Port twice, 1st up at Adelaide Oval where a close fought game Port won by a kick...that home ground advantage comes in handy.

In the return leg, hang on it wasn't at Hawthorn's home ground the G, it was at Etihad. Port played at Etihad just as much as Hawthorn in 2015, Port again won another close one....

How the feck does that work?

It is meant to be home and away - Port gets Hawthorn at home, but then plays them at a ground they are both as familiar with in the second leg...a clear advantage to Port??

Guess which team finished 1/2 a game ahead of Hawthorn on H/A ladder in 2015...wonder if your getting it yet?

The results speak for themselves...non-Melbourne teams jag an extra win or two...ie WC in 2015, and then their fans think they have "earnt" more advantages.

It is because the Melbourne teams have seen their home ground advantage reduced as a result of ground rationalisation in Melbourne.

yep, it’s imbalanced. Collingwood and Richmond play twice as many games on the mcg than Carlton and Essendon in games considered neutral, you play Etihad tenants with tons more experience on their home ground than they do yours, etc. it’s not all one way traffic you know . Can’t remember the last time Collingwood traveled to Geelong.

we have to play away games all corners of the country on twice the variety of grounds than some other clubs. It’s no an advantage for us to travel to Tasmania, you just have to look at the records of north and hawthorn to prove it.

contending teams are going to make the most of any advantage on offer, no matter how full of an advantage it may be. Victorian clubs are the ones ending up on the plus hga ledger each year, look at the fixtures and see for yourself. Just look at the last uncompromised season in 2019, no one had it better than hawthorn and north.

and lol, you finished 12th in 2015. You weren’t owning anyone that year. We had already beaten Richmond on the mcg who eventually played finals

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

It may be a few more seasons before fixtures are not pandemic affected.

When 'normal' life resumes I think the fixturing really does need an overhaul. Travel remains a factor and the two WA clubs face significant challenges.

I would cut their travel by 2 matches - Yep that means HGA. I would also increase interstate matches for the Vic Clubs. Balancing out travel clicks should be a fixturing factor.

Better performing non Vic teams should be given greater H&A access to the G.

 

[doppleganger]

yep, it’s imbalanced. Collingwood and Richmond play twice as many games on the mcg than Carlton and Essendon in games considered neutral, you play Etihad tenants with tons more experience on their home ground than they do yours, etc. it’s not all one way traffic you know . Can’t remember the last time Collingwood traveled to Geelong.

And yes, Carlton and Essendon are basically nomads. They split games between grounds, so which is home? Which ground do their players want to defend?

Some of the key psychological aspects of the "home advantage" are completely gone...this is the case with basically all Melbourne teams.

They have gone from having an actual home ground, to just playing games based upon where they can get the best stadium deal.

You continue to think that a team like Hawthorn can have 3 grounds with "home advantage"...but can't fathom how ridiculous that is.

Compared to Carlton and Essendon the Pies are better off, have always been consistent in that....part of both clubs being shite for 20+ years is they have no home, they are "co-tenants".

And then you are playing in the margins, and why it is accepted that games between Melbourne clubs are neutral, if a team has played 5 games at a ground and an opponent 7, and the 5 game team has all their fans in the prime level one seats....ain't really any disadvantage to either.

Melbourne ground rationalisation has also made the non-Melbourne teams more familiar with the two Melbourne grounds...when WC playing 3-4 games at Etihad every year...they are more familiar then the random game they used to play at VicPark, Princes Park.

Geelong play 5+ games at the G, in 2018 they played 7....yet you can't grasp that they are starting to become familiar with the ground. They still keep their 9 games with a big home advantage, but then get 5-7 away games at the same venue...that is Melbourne ground rationalisation. What do you reckon the outcome is if a team plays 9 games in front of an adoring crowd where their opponents rarely play, and then they also get 5-7 away games at the same stadium where their own fans can easily get a ticket if they want.

we have to play away games all corners of the country on twice the variety of grounds than some other clubs. It’s no an advantage for us to travel to Tasmania, you just have to look at the records of north and hawthorn to prove it.

It is an advantage, because your opponents the supposed "home" team are also travelling effectively playing an away game...

Isn't travel, sleeping in hotels, not playing at your normal ground, being away from regular fans, not defending your own turf all supposed to be disadvantages compared to playing at home??

Oh that is right, the Eagle fan thinks a team can have 3 or 4 home grounds....and so despite both teams travelling, both sleeping in hotels, both playing away from their home ground, both not getting their normal "home" routine, neither defending their home turf....the Eagles are somehow not better off compared to if they played a team that didn't travel, slept in their bed, had their normal routine, played in front of rabbit home fans, and wanted to defend their turf.

contending teams are going to make the most of any advantage on offer, no matter how full of an advantage it may be. Victorian clubs are the ones ending up on the plus hga ledger each year, look at the fixtures and see for yourself. Just look at the last uncompromised season in 2019, no one had it better than hawthorn and north.

You are claiming that a team flying to another state, sleeping in hotels, moving away from the regular home routine, playing away from their fans, and at a ground where they only play 3 times is advantaged.....compared to playing at home!!

LOL

and lol, you finished 12th in 2015. You weren’t owning anyone that year. We had already beaten Richmond on the mcg who eventually played finals in 15

LOL
In 2014 we finished 11th and beat you at the G
In 2016 we finished 12th and beat you at the G

You couldn't beat us at the G back then.

And it wasn't just you, the Hawks also got dudded by playing a "home game" at Etihad, which they lost to Port in 2015.

Play both at the G, Hawks win and finish minor premier and you lose and end up 4th.

That is what happens when Melbourne teams are shafted and get home games at venues that aren't their home ground, where they only play 3 games a year, and often aren't even in Melbourne.

The stats don't lie, non-Melbourne teams dominate H&A ladder since ground rationalisation has come in.

 

[Leeda]

Ooh the dollar and the minds will be divi…dEd…that’ll do..

 

[bh90210fan]

And yes, Carlton and Essendon are basically nomads. They split games between grounds, so which is home? Which ground do their players want to defend?

Some of the key psychological aspects of the "home advantage" are completely gone...this is the case with basically all Melbourne teams.

They have gone from having an actual home ground, to just playing games based upon where they can get the best stadium deal.

You continue to think that a team like Hawthorn can have 3 grounds with "home advantage"...but can't fathom how ridiculous that is.

Compared to Carlton and Essendon the Pies are better off, have always been consistent in that....part of both clubs being sh*te for 20+ years is they have no home, they are "co-tenants".

And then you are playing in the margins, and why it is accepted that games between Melbourne clubs are neutral, if a team has played 5 games at a ground and an opponent 7, and the 5 game team has all their fans in the prime level one seats....ain't really any disadvantage to either.

Melbourne ground rationalisation has also made the non-Melbourne teams more familiar with the two Melbourne grounds...when WC playing 3-4 games at Etihad every year...they are more familiar then the random game they used to play at VicPark, Princes Park.

Geelong play 5+ games at the G, in 2018 they played 7....yet you can't grasp that they are starting to become familiar with the ground. They still keep their 9 games with a big home advantage, but then get 5-7 away games at the same venue...that is Melbourne ground rationalisation. What do you reckon the outcome is if a team plays 9 games in front of an adoring crowd where their opponents rarely play, and then they also get 5-7 away games at the same stadium where their own fans can easily get a ticket if they want.



It is an advantage, because your opponents the supposed "home" team are also travelling effectively playing an away game...

Isn't travel, sleeping in hotels, not playing at your normal ground, being away from regular fans, not defending your own turf all supposed to be disadvantages compared to playing at home??

Oh that is right, the Eagle fan thinks a team can have 3 or 4 home grounds....and so despite both teams travelling, both sleeping in hotels, both playing away from their home ground, both not getting their normal "home" routine, neither defending their home turf....the Eagles are somehow not better off compared to if they played a team that didn't travel, slept in their bed, had their normal routine, played in front of rabbit home fans, and wanted to defend their turf.


You are claiming that a team flying to another state, sleeping in hotels, moving away from the regular home routine, playing away from their fans, and at a ground where they only play 3 times is advantaged.....compared to playing at home!!

LOL


LOL
In 2014 we finished 11th and beat you at the G
In 2016 we finished 12th and beat you at the G

You couldn't beat us at the G back then.

And it wasn't just you, the Hawks also got dudded by playing a "home game" at Etihad, which they lost to Port in 2015.

Play both at the G, Hawks win and finish minor premier and you lose and end up 4th.

That is what happens when Melbourne teams are shafted and get home games at venues that aren't their home ground, where they only play 3 games a year, and often aren't even in Melbourne.

The stats don't lie, non-Melbourne teams dominate H&A ladder since ground rationalisation has come in.

youre just repeating yourself over and over now, if you’re not going to look at the fixture from 2019 you can stop wasting your breath

you beat us at home in 2014 and ‘16 because we were shit, simple as that

 

[doppleganger]

youre just repeating yourself over and over now, if you’re not going to look at the fixture from 2019 you can stop wasting your breath

Hawthorn who played 9 games outside of Victoria? And only 6 "home" games at their preferred home ground the G.

LoL, good to know that you think flying and playing away from home gives teams an advantage.

you beat us at home in 2014 and ‘16 because we were sh*t, simple as that

In 2016 you won 16 games, the same amount as in 2015...and we were even worse!!

It would have been 17 wins and equal top for the Eagles in 2016 if you lucked out and got to play us away from our home ground like you did in 2015.

It is easy to finish top4 and top2 (numbers are clear) when you get a fixture where your away games against Melbourne teams aren't actually at the Melbourne teams home ground.

 

[bh90210fan]

Hawthorn who played 9 games outside of Victoria? And only 6 "home" games at their preferred home ground the G.

LoL, good to know that you think flying and playing away from home gives teams an advantage.


In 2016 you won 16 games, the same amount as in 2015...and we were even worse!!

It would have been 17 wins and equal top for the Eagles in 2016 if you lucked out and got to play us away from our home ground like you did in 2015.

It is easy to finish top4 and top2 (numbers are clear) when you get a fixture where your away games against Melbourne teams aren't actually at the Melbourne teams home ground.

Hawthorn who played 9 games outside of Victoria? And only 6 "home" games at their preferred home ground the G.

LoL, good to know that you think flying and playing away from home gives teams an advantage.


In 2016 you won 16 games, the same amount as in 2015...and we were even worse!!

It would have been 17 wins and equal top for the Eagles in 2016 if you lucked out and got to play us away from our home ground like you did in 2015.

It is easy to finish top4 and top2 (numbers are clear) when you get a fixture where your away games against Melbourne teams aren't actually at the Melbourne teams home ground.

Yeah, hawthorn played 9 games outside of Victoria, advantaged in 4 of those. Hga in 11 games overall and disadvantaged in only 8. North similar story. Are you going to tell us which non Victorian clubs topped that or not? Shouldn’t be hard

In 2016 we finished 6th, bundled out of the finals 1st week. No hope. Weve finished top2 6 times in our history, made the gf every single time. In 2016 we didn’t get there because we didn’t deserve it. werent good enough, pretty simple

 

[doppleganger]

Yeah, hawthorn played 9 games outside of Victoria, advantaged in 4 of those. Hga in 11 games overall and disadvantaged in only 8. North similar story. Are you going to tell us which non Victorian clubs topped that or not? Shouldn’t be hard

LoL, so you think a team playing away gets a "home advantage".

You do understand what "home" means?

In 2016 we finished 6th, bundled out of the finals 1st week. No hope. Weve finished top2 6 times in our history, made the gf every single time. In 2016 we didn’t get there because we didn’t deserve it. werent good enough, pretty simple

In 2016 you played Collingwood at our home ground and lost.

In 2015 you played Collingwood at a ground that wasn't the Pies home ground, it was the Eagles 3rd game for the year at Etihad and just the 2nd for the Pies. Eagles were more familiar with the ground...isn't that an Eagles HGA according to your inane logic?

When non-Melbourne teams get 9-10 or 11 games with an actual proper home ground advantage, and then they play away games at venues where they are more familiar than the "home" team you get imbalanced results.

 

[Shaucob_Burjan]

I'm amazed there are posters who think the AFL has equalisation. Genuinely amazed.

 

[bh90210fan]

LoL, so you think a team playing away gets a "home advantage".

You do understand what "home" means?


In 2016 you played Collingwood at our home ground and lost.

In 2015 you played Collingwood at a ground that wasn't the Pies home ground, it was the Eagles 3rd game for the year at Etihad and just the 2nd for the Pies. Eagles were more familiar with the ground...isn't that an Eagles HGA according to your inane logic?

When non-Melbourne teams get 9-10 or 11 games with an actual proper home ground advantage, and then they play away games at venues where they are more familiar than the "home" team you get imbalanced results.

you are more familiar than every other club in the comp apart from richmond on the mcg. that last statement extends to more than just the non Melbourne clubs

if you can’t name anyone that had it better than north or hawthorn in 2019 I think we’re done here, cheers

 

[doppleganger]

you are more familiar than every other club in the comp apart from richmond on the mcg. that last statement extends to more than just the non Melbourne clubs

No shit, it is meant to be our home ground. Aren't you meant to play your home games at a single ground so you get a familiarity advantage?

How do the Eagles get to play games against Melbourne teams where they are more familiar with the ground? Giving them HGA according to your inane logic.

if you can’t name anyone that had it better than north or hawthorn in 2019 I think we’re done here, cheers

To come up with that you must think:

Travelling is not a disadvantage.

That playing games in a completely different state gives you an advantage if you are more familiar with the ground.

An interesting take.

Any clubs that didn't have to sell home games and play "away" are better off than clubs that sold home games.

Clubs like WC who get 10 games at their actual home ground against teams from outside WA, but don't then play away at the home ground of their 10 opponents...ie WC playing Melbourne in NT, had it better.

 

[bh90210fan]

No sh*t, it is meant to be our home ground. Aren't you meant to play your home games at a single ground so you get a familiarity advantage?

How do the Eagles get to play games against Melbourne teams where they are more familiar with the ground? Giving them HGA according to your inane logic.


To come up with that you must think:

Travelling is not a disadvantage.

That playing games in a completely different state gives you an advantage if you are more familiar with the ground.

An interesting take.

Any clubs that didn't have to sell home games and play "away" are better off than clubs that sold home games.

Clubs like WC who get 10 games at their actual home ground against teams from outside WA, but don't then play away at the home ground of their 10 opponents...ie WC playing Melbourne in NT, had it better.

you’re playing away games on the mcg against teams where you are more familiar with the ground. That’s your issue with us, you need to open your eyes. It doesn’t just apply to non Melbourne clubs.

Traveling is a disadvantage, but it’s not just the travel component which makes up a whole hga. It’s only part of it, you know this, teams playing against the hawks and north are at a disadvantage, you just need to look at their records at those grounds to prove it.

Not surprised you can’t name a non Melbourne club which had a more advantageous fixture than hawthorn or north in 2019, it’s always a Victorian club which ends up on top in the hga ledger every year. You think Wc in 2015 had a leg up, you should check out Melbournes and Carltons fixture that year, we don’t come close

 

[doppleganger]

you’re playing away games on the mcg against teams where you are more familiar with the ground. That’s your issue with us, you need to open your eyes. It doesn’t just apply to non Melbourne clubs.

??
Melbourne ground rationalisation reduced the home advantage and away disadvantage for ALL Melbourne clubs

Collingwood v Carlton at VicPark
Carlton v Collingwood at Princes Park

Now it is just always at the G.

The bit you simply fail to acknowledge is that for non-Melbourne teams they retained their home advantage - nothing changed you still get all you home games against Melbourne clubs at your home deck.

However the away disadvantageis reduced, you no longer play Melbourne clubs at their home ground...often even playing them in other states, or you play at venues where the non-Melbourne teams are actually more familiar!!

Traveling is a disadvantage, but it’s not just the travel component which makes up a whole hga. It’s only part of it, you know this, teams playing against the hawks and north are at a disadvantage, you just need to look at their records at those grounds to prove it.

Yeah HGA is about playing at home, defending your home ground, keeping your home routine, playing in front of your own fans in a hostile environment for the opposition

What part of that applies when a team doesn't play at home?

The home advantage is reduced, and thus the away disadvantage also reduces.

It really isn't hard.

Not surprised you can’t name a non Melbourne club which had a more advantageous fixture than hawthorn or north in 2019, it’s always a Victorian club which ends up on top in the hga ledger every year. You think Wc in 2015 had a leg up, you should check out Melbournes and Carltons fixture that year, we don’t come close

I did, WC.

Melbourne played a home game against WC in Darwin, no advantage for a home game.
Melbourne played Port in Alice, no advantage for a home game.
Melbourne played the Giants at Etihad, GWS had the ground familiarity advantage.

Dees then had 4 games against non-Melbournre clubs at the G, 4 with genuine home advantage and played away at 4 non-Melbourne clubs grounds the disadvantage.

The other 11 were neutral Melbourne v Melbourne games.

So the imbalanced fixture is GWS at Etihad...a ground GWS had the familiarity advantage at, a HGA according to you.

2015 WC
WC had 10 games at their home ground ainst non WA teams.
WC had just 7 away games at the home ground of their opponent away from WA
Then
2 neutral games against Freo (the Melb v Melb equivalent).
A neutral game in Darwin against Melbourne
A game where WC had ground familiarity advantage at Etihad against Collingwood
A game at Tassie where North travelled as the home team and lost regular advantage

WC clearly had the advantage compared to Melbourne in 2015.

 

[bh90210fan]

??
Melbourne ground rationalisation reduced the home advantage and away disadvantage for ALL Melbourne clubs

Collingwood v Carlton at VicPark
Carlton v Collingwood at Princes Park

Now it is just always at the G.

The bit you simply fail to acknowledge is that for non-Melbourne teams they retained their home advantage - nothing changed you still get all you home games against Melbourne clubs at your home deck.

However the away disadvantageis reduced, you no longer play Melbourne clubs at their home ground...often even playing them in other states, or you play at venues where the non-Melbourne teams are actually more familiar!!


Yeah HGA is about playing at home, defending your home ground, keeping your home routine, playing in front of your own fans in a hostile environment for the opposition

What part of that applies when a team doesn't play at home?

The home advantage is reduced, and thus the away disadvantage also reduces.

It really isn't hard.


I did, WC.

Melbourne played a home game against WC in Darwin, no advantage for a home game.
Melbourne played Port in Alice, no advantage for a home game.
Melbourne played the Giants at Etihad, GWS had the ground familiarity advantage.

Dees then had 4 games against non-Melbournre clubs at the G, 4 with genuine home advantage and played away at 4 non-Melbourne clubs grounds the disadvantage.

The other 11 were neutral Melbourne v Melbourne games.

So the imbalanced fixture is GWS at Etihad...a ground GWS had the familiarity advantage at, a HGA according to you.

2015 WC
WC had 10 games at their home ground ainst non WA teams.
WC had just 7 away games at the home ground of their opponent away from WA
Then
2 neutral games against Freo (the Melb v Melb equivalent).
A neutral game in Darwin against Melbourne
A game where WC had ground familiarity advantage at Etihad against Collingwood
A game at Tassie where North travelled as the home team and lost regular advantage

WC clearly had the advantage compared to Melbourne in 2015.

LOL

after all of this waffle for days on end going on and on about what constitutes a home advantage, you’ve gone and shat in your own boot and completely contradicted yourself. You now want to pretend the mcg is home to Marvel tenants. You might want to look at Melbournes fixture again, with an unbiased lens this time.

If you want to pretend WC playing a game in Melbourne, or us playing North in Tasmania once in a blue moon can be neutral, that’s fine, you’re fudging the numbers but you run with it, no worries. But at least be consistent.

try again

 

[doppleganger]

after all of this waffle for days on end going on and on about what constitutes a home advantage, you’ve gone and shat in your own boot and completely contradicted yourself. You now want to pretend the mcg is home to Marvel tenants. You might want to look at Melbournes fixture again, with an unbiased lens this time.

Melbourne's 11 games against other Melbourne clubs, it is accepted that these are neutral.

Both teams stay at home, both keep normal routine, both fans get to the ground...that is the point no significant advantage to either team. But if you want to get into nuances fine.

Of the 11, 6 were against clubs who call the G home, co-tenants. Dees played 13 G games, so again even it wanting to get into nuances 3 with ground familiarity advantage and 3 against them...but only a nuffie cares if a team is playing 8-9 games at a ground.

R4 Richmond @ G, neutral - Tigers 14 G games
R7 Hawthorn @ G, - Hawks 10 G games
R10 Coll @ G, neutral - Pies 14 G games
R15 Ess @ G, neutral - Ess 8 G games
R18 Coll @ G, neutral - Pies 14 G games
R21 Carl @ G, neutral - Carl 9 G games

They played Dogs & StK twice, once at G and once at Etihad = neutral.

So the big mystery game that caused such a massive imbalance in the neutral claim was that they had North @G, which is the supposedly massive imbalance...is that really it!? WOW

If you want to pretend WC playing a game in Melbourne, or us playing North in Tasmania once in a blue moon can be neutral, that’s fine, you’re fudging the numbers but you run with it, no worries. But at least be consistent.

Melbourne v WC in Darwin is neutral, how the **** can it not be anything but?

Ground familiarity = both only play once
Travel = similar flights
Sleeping = both in hotels
Routine = both on away Routine
Defending home turf = neither
Crowd = just as many Eagles and theatre goers as Dees fans

I never said North in Tassie is neutral, just that the disadvantage is reduced...the only advantage North have is ground familiarity.

Let's recall the analysis then.

Dees 2015 fixture
The standard home v away
4 games against a non-Melbourne team at their home ground with an advantage
4 games away against non-Melbourne teams at their home ground
3 games against Etihad tenants at the G
2 away games against Etihad tenants at Etihad
Neutral games
6 neutral games against G tenants
1 neutral game in Darwin
1 neutral game in Alice Springs
Bastardised game - thanks to Melbourne ground rationalisation
1 game at Etihad where GWS had ground familiarity advantage.

WC 2015 fixture
The standard home and away
10 games at home ground against non-WA
7 games away at opponents home ground
Neutral games
2 neutral games against Freo
1 neutral game in Darwin
Bastardised game - thanks to Melbourne ground rationalisation
1 game in Tassie where North lost home advantage because they travelled, they only enjoy ground familiarity advantage.
1 game at Etihad where the Eagles had ground familiarity advantage, were you not saying ground familiarity is more important than travel in any advantage?

In terms of comparison

WC get +3 in games with actual proper home advantage/away advantage (10 v 7), Dees +1 (7v6)...both a good fixture, WC blessed.

WC 11 where they have ground familiarity advantage, Dees only 10....advantage Eagles again.

Local derby blockbuster fatigue, against co-tenants, Dees 6 games to just 2 for WC.

You only need to look at H&A results to see that Melbourne teams have been shafted as a result of ground rationalisation, and the non-Melbourne teams advantaged in H&A.

The only disadvantage WC have is more travel, but as you say travel isn't the main component in any advantage/disadvantage, teams like Hawthorn are supposedly advantaged by travelling more.

And the travel load isn't a WC v Melbourne thing, WC have a bigger travel load than all non WA teams...even SA and NSW teams.

 

[bh90210fan]

I never said North in Tassie is neutral, just that the disadvantage is reduced...the only advantage North have is ground familiarity.

Let's recall the analysis then.

Dees 2015 fixture
The standard home v away
4 games against a non-Melbourne team at their home ground with an advantage
4 games away against non-Melbourne teams at their home ground
3 games against Etihad tenants at the G
2 away games against Etihad tenants at Etihad
Neutral games
6 neutral games against G tenants
1 neutral game in Darwin
1 neutral game in Alice Springs
Bastardised game - thanks to Melbourne ground rationalisation
1 game at Etihad where GWS had ground familiarity advantage.

WC 2015 fixture
The standard home and away
10 games at home ground against non-WA
7 games away at opponents home ground
Neutral games
2 neutral games against Freo
1 neutral game in Darwin
Bastardised game - thanks to Melbourne ground rationalisation
1 game in Tassie where North lost home advantage because they travelled, they only enjoy ground familiarity advantage.
1 game at Etihad where the Eagles had ground familiarity advantage, were you not saying ground familiarity is more important than travel in any advantage?

In terms of comparison

WC get +3 in games with actual proper home advantage/away advantage (10 v 7), Dees +1 (7v6)...both a good fixture, WC blessed.

WC 11 where they have ground familiarity advantage, Dees only 10....advantage Eagles again.

Local derby blockbuster fatigue, against co-tenants, Dees 6 games to just 2 for WC.

You only need to look at H&A results to see that Melbourne teams have been shafted as a result of ground rationalisation, and the non-Melbourne teams advantaged in H&A.

The only disadvantage WC have is more travel, but as you say travel isn't the main component in any advantage/disadvantage, teams like Hawthorn are supposedly advantaged by travelling more.

And the travel load isn't a WC v Melbourne thing, WC have a bigger travel load than all non WA teams...even SA and NSW teams.

West Coast have a reduced advantage against North in Tasmania according to you, but Melbourne playing GWS at Manuka is still a full disadvantage for the dees, why am i not surprised. Atleast you counted the extra game against a Marvel tenant this time I guess.


WC
1 game with a reduced hga against North
1 bastardised game against Collingwood
1 neutral game against Melbourne

Dees
1 game with a reduced hga against gws
1 bastardised game against GWS
1 extra game with full home ground advantage against the dogs

the demons still come out on top, even with our game against Melbourne being considered neutral even though we had never played a game in the NT before. You’d think the dees would have some ground familiarity advantage for that one.

Its the same every year. Victorian clubs get more or less hga than non Victorian clubs depending on the fixture. They got it in 2015 with Melbourne and they got it in 2019. If you look at the original fixture slated for this year even the reigning premier gets a ride.

 

[West Coast 06]

??
Melbourne ground rationalisation reduced the home advantage and away disadvantage for ALL Melbourne clubs

Collingwood v Carlton at VicPark
Carlton v Collingwood at Princes Park

Now it is just always at the G.

The bit you simply fail to acknowledge is that for non-Melbourne teams they retained their home advantage - nothing changed you still get all you home games against Melbourne clubs at your home deck.

However the away disadvantageis reduced, you no longer play Melbourne clubs at their home ground...often even playing them in other states, or you play at venues where the non-Melbourne teams are actually more familiar!!


Yeah HGA is about playing at home, defending your home ground, keeping your home routine, playing in front of your own fans in a hostile environment for the opposition

What part of that applies when a team doesn't play at home?

The home advantage is reduced, and thus the away disadvantage also reduces.

It really isn't hard.


I did, WC.

Melbourne played a home game against WC in Darwin, no advantage for a home game.
Melbourne played Port in Alice, no advantage for a home game.
Melbourne played the Giants at Etihad, GWS had the ground familiarity advantage.

Dees then had 4 games against non-Melbournre clubs at the G, 4 with genuine home advantage and played away at 4 non-Melbourne clubs grounds the disadvantage.

The other 11 were neutral Melbourne v Melbourne games.

So the imbalanced fixture is GWS at Etihad...a ground GWS had the familiarity advantage at, a HGA according to you.

2015 WC
WC had 10 games at their home ground ainst non WA teams.
WC had just 7 away games at the home ground of their opponent away from WA
Then
2 neutral games against Freo (the Melb v Melb equivalent).
A neutral game in Darwin against Melbourne
A game where WC had ground familiarity advantage at Etihad against Collingwood
A game at Tassie where North travelled as the home team and lost regular advantage

WC clearly had the advantage compared to Melbourne in 2015.

West Coast had 11 home games, 2 of which were neutral games against Fremantle. So already your calculations are incorrect. That means 9 games against non WA reams at home.

Trust me when I say, our club would prefer not to play at random grounds every year. So the deals that Victorian teams have in place with sponsors are a disadvantage to us. You really think we are on equal terms with North travelling to ****8ng Tasmania?

somehow Collingwood is disadvantaged by playing us at Etihad? You sound like Hardwick! But at the same time North don’t have that same ”familiarity advantage“ playing in Tassie?

Every year West Coast have in their games request to play as many games as possible at the MCG, for obvious reasons. We are lucky to get 2-3 games in an average year. We would be more than happy not to play Victorian teams outside of Victoria.

 

[doppleganger]

West Coast have a reduced advantage against North in Tasmania according to you, but Melbourne playing GWS at Manuka is still a full disadvantage for the dees, why am i not surprised. Atleast you counted the extra game against a Marvel tenant this time I guess.


WC
1 game with a reduced hga against North
1 bastardised game against Collingwood
1 neutral game against Melbourne

Dees
1 game with a reduced hga against gws
1 bastardised game against GWS
1 extra game with full home ground advantage against the dogs

the demons still come out on top, even with our game against Melbourne being considered neutral even though we had never played a game in the NT before. You’d think the dees would have some ground familiarity advantage for that one.

Its the same every year. Victorian clubs get more or less hga than non Victorian clubs depending on the fixture. They got it in 2015 with Melbourne and they got it in 2019. If you look at the original fixture slated for this year even the reigning premier gets a ride.

Good call, GWS is reduced...turns out AFL balanced that out by making both GWS v Melbourne games at bastardised venues.

In your above you conveniently don't mention WC have 10 games with full home advantage, Dees just 7 (and that is being generous saying that Eagles have same home advantage when the Dogs play at Optus, as the Dees enjoy when they host the Dogs at the G....Dogs get normal routine, have plenty of fans at the ground etc.)

Generally accepted that a Melbourne v Melbourne game is neutral compared to games when opponent comes in from another city, but will count that as a full home advantage game just to please you...any reasonable footy fan (ie not a WA nuffie) realise that Dees hosting Dogs isn't the same advantage as the Dees hosting Port at the G.

Updated analysis

Dees 2015 fixture
The standard home v away
4 games against a non-Melbourne team at their home ground with an advantage
3 games away against non-Melbourne teams at their home ground
3 games against Etihad tenants at the G
2 away games against Etihad tenants at Etihad
Neutral games
6 neutral games against G tenants
1 neutral game in Darwin
1 neutral game in Alice Springs
Bastardised gam-s - thanks to Melbourne ground rationalisation & Canberra
1 game at Etihad where GWS had ground familiarity advantage.
1 game in Canberra where GWS had ground familiarity advantage

WC 2015 fixture
The standard home and away
10 games at home ground against non-WA
7 games away at opponents home ground
Neutral games
2 neutral games against Freo
1 neutral game in Darwin
Bastardised game - thanks to Melbourne ground rationalisation
1 game in Tassie where North lost home advantage because they travelled, they only enjoy ground familiarity advantage.
1 game at Etihad where the Eagles had ground familiarity advantage, were you not saying ground familiarity is more important than travel in any advantage?

In terms of comparison

WC get +3 in actual home advantage/away advantage at actual home grounds (10 v 7), Dees +2 (which includes the G v Etihad teams) (7v5)...both a great fixtures, but WC advantaged.

WC 11 where they have ground familiarity advantage, Dees only 10....advantage Eagles again.

WC 8 games where they have ground familiarity disadvantage, Dees had 10 (just making sure we take note of the MCG nuance, tis clearly important to you)...advantage Eagles again.

Local derby blockbuster fatigue, against co-tenants, Dees 6 games to just 2 for WC.

The only thing WC is disadvantaged by is travel load, but that is WA teams v the league.

You only need to look at H&A results to see that Melbourne teams have been shafted as a result of ground rationalisation, and the non-Melbourne teams advantaged in H&A.

 

[doppleganger]

West Coast had 11 home games, 2 of which were neutral games against Fremantle. So already your calculations are incorrect. That means 9 games against non WA reams at home.

Trust me when I say, our club would prefer not to play at random grounds every year. So the deals that Victorian teams have in place with sponsors are a disadvantage to us. You really think we are on equal terms with North travelling to fu**8ng Tasmania?

somehow Collingwood is disadvantaged by playing us at Etihad? You sound like Hardwick! But at the same time North don’t have that same ”familiarity advantage“ playing in Tassie?

Every year West Coast have in their games request to play as many games as possible at the MCG, for obvious reasons. We are lucky to get 2-3 games in an average year. We would be more than happy not to play Victorian teams outside of Victoria.

Try again.

WC play 12 games in Perth, 11 home and 1 away. You get 10 home games against non-WA teams every year.

Re Tassie - No, you aren't on equal terms, I never said that, North have a ground familiarity advantage. But that is obviously a much smaller advantage than you get if you have ground familiarity plus home ground and no travel....you follow?

Dimma has a point, Richmond hate Marvel it isn't the Tigers home ground. WC played more games at Etihad when we met, they were more familiar with the ground. If you are more familiar with a ground, and it isn't the opponents home ground, obviously a much smaller disadvantage....remember that Hawthorn supposedly get an advantage when they travel and enjoy ground familiarity advantage. So does ground familiarity also offset travel when WC do it?

LoL at thinking you should get a say in where your away games are played...Melbourne based teams don't even get our "home" games where we want.

Why not think outside the square, join forces with another non-Melbourne club, say Brisbane. Every year you both request to play each other at the G, one year WC home game, next year BL home game.

For many years Brisbane got an extra game in Brisbane, as Melbourne used to play a "home" at the GABBA...time to pay it back.

To make up the missing WA game, perhaps WA state govt can pay StK to play a game over there considering China looks like it will be off the cards for a while....STK already happy to give up the home game for $$$ and advantage a non-Melbourne team in the process, so instead of Port why not Eagles?

Or just cut out the middle man a pay StK / MCC directly to have StK play a home game at the G against the Eagles every year. StK fans prefer that to games in China, NZ or wherever else they go.

 

[maxiboy238]

Interstate teams are bad? haven’t port won 36 flags
#irrelevant #livinginthepast #sanfldoesntcount

 

[bh90210fan]

Good call, GWS is reduced...turns out AFL balanced that out by making both GWS v Melbourne games at bastardised venues.

In your above you conveniently don't mention WC have 10 games with full home advantage, Dees just 7 (and that is being generous saying that Eagles have same home advantage when the Dogs play at Optus, as the Dees enjoy when they host the Dogs at the G....Dogs get normal routine, have plenty of fans at the ground etc.)

Generally accepted that a Melbourne v Melbourne game is neutral compared to games when opponent comes in from another city, but will count that as a full home advantage game just to please you...any reasonable footy fan (ie not a WA nuffie) realise that Dees hosting Dogs isn't the same advantage as the Dees hosting Port at the G.

Updated analysis

Dees 2015 fixture
The standard home v away
4 games against a non-Melbourne team at their home ground with an advantage
3 games away against non-Melbourne teams at their home ground
3 games against Etihad tenants at the G
2 away games against Etihad tenants at Etihad
Neutral games
6 neutral games against G tenants
1 neutral game in Darwin
1 neutral game in Alice Springs
Bastardised gam-s - thanks to Melbourne ground rationalisation & Canberra
1 game at Etihad where GWS had ground familiarity advantage.
1 game in Canberra where GWS had ground familiarity advantage

WC 2015 fixture
The standard home and away
10 games at home ground against non-WA
7 games away at opponents home ground
Neutral games
2 neutral games against Freo
1 neutral game in Darwin
Bastardised game - thanks to Melbourne ground rationalisation
1 game in Tassie where North lost home advantage because they travelled, they only enjoy ground familiarity advantage.
1 game at Etihad where the Eagles had ground familiarity advantage, were you not saying ground familiarity is more important than travel in any advantage?

In terms of comparison

WC get +3 in actual home advantage/away advantage at actual home grounds (10 v 7), Dees +2 (which includes the G v Etihad teams) (7v5)...both a great fixtures, but WC advantaged.

WC 11 where they have ground familiarity advantage, Dees only 10....advantage Eagles again.

WC 8 games where they have ground familiarity disadvantage, Dees had 10 (just making sure we take note of the MCG nuance, tis clearly important to you)...advantage Eagles again.

Local derby blockbuster fatigue, against co-tenants, Dees 6 games to just 2 for WC.

The only thing WC is disadvantaged by is travel load, but that is WA teams v the league.

You only need to look at H&A results to see that Melbourne teams have been shafted as a result of ground rationalisation, and the non-Melbourne teams advantaged in H&A.

I don’t know how you can still not get it. Both clubs play 2 bastardised games, which cancel eachother out. The tiebreaker is where West Coast played a neutral game in the NT (according to you), while Melbourne get an extra home game against the marvel tenants.

Surely that extra home game tips the scales in Melbourne’s favour!

Youve fudged the numbers as hard as you could and WC still didn’t come out on top

And by fudging the numbers I mean pretending WC had a familiarity advantage at Marvel in Melbourne. Do you know how ridiculous that is? You don’t apply anything consistently, Ive had to correct you twice already , if you think we had a familiarity advantage (lol) playing our 3rd game v 2nd at Marvel against the pies, then Collingwood must be the most advantaged team in the competition every year. They have a familiarity advantage in every single game, neutral or otherwise on the MCG. You don’t even give the demons a familiarity advantage in the NT when WC had never even played a single game in that whole State.

Caught out every time you’ve had a go, cant name a single non Victorian club who had it better than north or hawks in 2019 when asked repeatedly. Fell flat on your face with your effort here with WC / Melb. Gone to embarrassing extremes without applying them consistently, continually flip flopping and contradicting yourself. You can just wear the L now and we can both move on. Cheers