Opinion Why are the interstate teams so bad? How do we fix them?

[LittleG]

If Fremantle draft 50 people, on average 10 will be from WA.

For Vic clubs it is 25.

If Fremantle drafted 5 people a year, and traded one non WA player for a WA player every year, and Vic club just hit the draft the Vic club would still have more local talent on there list.

We have Darcy, Brayshaw, Serong , Young and Cerra. Melbourne can not complain about some chasing one player. Complain when it is 80 percent of your list.

You did choose to draft Cerra instead of Naughton, Victorian instead of Western Australian. Naughton took it personally too…. I doubt he will consider Freo IF he decides to head home.

When the WA talent is there, it should be drafted.

 

[bh90210fan]

Why?
The point is the misguided belief that non-Melbourne teams deserve / have "earnt" a home final based on H&A ranking.

H&A ranking is flawed, teams with a genuine home advantage are favoured. The stats align to this, teams that have retained home advantage dominate the pointy end of H&A positions.

Those poor old SA teams keep finishing top2, their fans then think they "earn" extra advantages...but they continue to be exposed by "lower ranked" H&A teams in finals.

And you have included Geelong and Dogs losing away from their home ground, pretty consistent for you as you don't actually get what creates a home advantage.

And GF losses when teams don't enjoy the same advantage that teams enjoy in a QF or PF....again no surprise there.

Here you go, moving the goalposts again.

Look, I agree with you Geelong the Dogs are handicapped by not playing finals on their home ground

Thats why MCG tenants have the best gig in town

Guaranteed home Grand Finals, and home finals against every other Victorian team regardless of ladder position.

no one else gets home advantage gifted to them like that.

Now, considering you’ve decided to run with non Melbourne clubs again all of a sudden, trying to prove an advantage when this one group plays off against each other is meaningless. You have to look at games played between the two groups to see who comes out on top - melb v non melb.

And now that you agree Geelong and the marvel clubs don’t play finals at home you can discount those results

If we look at the last 10 years where finals were played in Melbourne you’ll find that the club with the most losses at home in the Melbourne v non Melbourne wash up is Collingwood. Losing finals to Geelong, Port, West Coast and GWS.

Not surprising the one club which plays 17 games every year on only 2 local grounds would be the one to get shown up in finals when their free ride ended. Advantaged in the h&a, then home finals handed to you - no wonder we see you struggling so regularly in September.

Actually no, your free ride doesnt end at all. As a Collingwood supporter , with a finals record like yours with everything that’s been handed to you I’d be the last person to be commenting in a thread like this

 

[doppleganger]

If we look at the last 10 years where finals were played in Melbourne you’ll find that the club with the most losses at home in the Melbourne v non Melbourne wash up is Collingwood. Losing finals to Geelong, Port, West Coast and GWS.

Actually no, your free ride doesnt end at all. As a Collingwood supporter , with a finals record like yours with everything that’s been handed to you I’d be the last person to be commenting in a thread like this

Two of those losses were in GF, when the advantage isn't the same as a regular final.

Again that is the point.

Stats show that GF results aren't the same as H&A games.

And yes, well aware that of the Melbourne clubs Collingwood has it better than all the rest

We don't sell "home games" and travel like Hawks, North, Dees, Saints, Dogs and Tigers used to/still do. And unlike Carlton n Essendon who are "homeless" nomads, we get majority of our games at the G.

We are advantaged compared to all the Melbourne teams, but still fall behind non-Melbourne clubs in H&A stakes.

 

[franjon]

It took a long while before the Brisbane Bears, and before them the relocated Sydney Swans came good.

Look granted I can see the criticsm of having a team up at the Gold Coast, but having a team in Australia's largest growing population belt in Western Sydney was absolutely the right call.

The problem with the Gold Coast was that the AFL was informed right from the start that it's a shit-truck. And 14 years on it has been proven to be exactly that, but their ego won't allow them to admit it, so they just keep pouring more fund's, whether it be money, draft picks, concession's and now trying to get Clarkson up there. They had success with Brisbane, sometimes you have to just cut your losses and realise this isn't working, for the betterment of the competition.

 

[bh90210fan]

Two of those losses were in GF, when the advantage isn't the same as a regular final.

Again that is the point.

Stats show that GF results aren't the same as H&A games.

And yes, well aware that of the Melbourne clubs Collingwood has it better than all the rest

We don't sell "home games" and travel like Hawks, North, Dees, Saints, Dogs and Tigers used to/still do. And unlike Carlton n Essendon who are "homeless" nomads, we get majority of our games at the G.

We are advantaged compared to all the Melbourne teams, but still fall behind non-Melbourne clubs in H&A stakes.

Far behind you reckon

twice the number of top of the table finishes as West Coast and half the flags. Poor you

 

[Freomaniac]

Oh good you’ve identified an internal problem at Fremantle, their drafting strategy.

Take a Victorian kid in Cerra in the draft while overlooking A WA boy in Aaron Naughton (in a Grand Final next week)

These are the internal issues Fremantle need to look at before trying to blame everyone else. Glad you’ve picked it up.

Naughton is technically Victorian.....Actually, he didn't want a WA team to sign him, he wanted to head to Victoria.

Saying that, freos 1st round pick in 2013 was Michael apeness, a kpf/ruck

He spent the 1st 7 years of his life in WA, Goes to Victoria and gets drafted to the dockers as a teenager.

 

[Freomaniac]

What does it tell us??

Freo have only been in the league for 25 years.

Freo have two players who have played 350+ games, Melbourne and Collingwood have none.

#blockbusterfatigueisreal

Please remind me how many premierships freo has won. And tell me how many Melbourne and Collingwood as won?

 

[doppleganger]

Far behind you reckon

twice the number of top of the table finishes as West Coast and half the flags. Poor you

LOL

Pies have finished minor premiers twice, and 2nd twice since WC entered, four top 2 finishes.

Eagles have finished minor premiers three times, and 2nd a further 3 times, six top 2 finishes.

The numbers show that non-Melbourne teams are overrepresented in top2 finishes, as they retained a home advantage whilst Melbourne teams had their gradually eroded due to the Melbourne ground rationalisation policy.

Collingwood have made twice as many GFs as WC when not finishing top2.

 

[74561347]

You did choose to draft Cerra instead of Naughton, Victorian instead of Western Australian. Naughton took it personally too…. I doubt he will consider Freo IF he decides to head home.

When the WA talent is there, it should be drafted.

so WA have to draft WA talent when it is there, regardless of whether theyre best players available to them at their pick?

 

[bh90210fan]

LOL

Pies have finished minor premiers twice, and 2nd twice since WC entered, four top 2 finishes.

Eagles have finished minor premiers three times, and 2nd a further 3 times, six top 2 finishes.

The numbers show that non-Melbourne teams are overrepresented in top2 finishes, as they retained a home advantage whilst Melbourne teams had their gradually eroded due to the Melbourne ground rationalisation policy.

Collingwood have made twice as many GFs as WC when not finishing top2.

Bit difficult to prove this when the non Melbourne club with the most top 2 finishes not able to play finals on their home ground. Geelong aren afforded that luxury remember.

But the numbers do show that Collingwood have been bundled out of the finals race at home by non Melbourne clubs in 4 of your last 5 finals series

Which must mean you have no business playing finals as often as you do.

 

[doppleganger]

Bit difficult to prove this when the non Melbourne club with the most top 2 finishes not able to play finals on their home ground. Geelong aren afforded that luxury remember.

But the numbers do show that Collingwood have been bundled out of the finals race at home by non Melbourne clubs in 4 of your last 5 finals series

Which must mean you have no business playing finals as often as you do.

It isn't hard to prove that retaining a home ground advantage is an actual advantage in H&A, the numbers show that.

Yes, Collingwood have lost plenty of GFs to non-Melbourne teams, as the regular home advantage doesn't exist in GF.

That is the point.

 

[bh90210fan]

It isn't hard to prove that retaining a home ground advantage is an actual advantage in H&A, the numbers show that.

Yes, Collingwood have lost plenty of GFs to non-Melbourne teams, as the regular home advantage doesn't exist in GF.

That is the point.

You’d think if non Melbourne clubs didn’t warrant their spot in the finals that you’d be able to topple one at home at least once in a while

 

[Blackas87]

so WA have to draft WA talent when it is there, regardless of whether theyre best players available to them at their pick?

Is Cerra better than Aaron Naughton?

There is a reason your club has an academy to keep NSW talent in NSW. There is plenty of WA talent for the WA clubs, if they choose to take players from another state they risk that player wanting to return home. No different to when Melbourne took Hogan and he returned to Fremantle

 

[doppleganger]

You’d think if non Melbourne clubs didn’t warrant their spot in the finals that you’d be able to topple one at home at least once in a while

In week1,2 and 3 finals at the G (when Pies have an advantage) we are 10-4 against non-Melbourne teams - Cats in 07PF and 09PF, 2 of the 4 losses.

In GFs we are 0-4 against non-Melbourne teams.

Had no problems beating the Lions in 03QF during their peak when we had home advantage.

But come GF day when the advantage isn't the same we have no advantage.

The numbers are pretty easy to follow, non-Melbourne teams are advantaged in H&A. They don't deserve or earn anything.

And GF results don't align with regular H&A stats as the advantage isn't the same.

 

[bzparkes]

The numbers are pretty easy to follow, non-Melbourne teams are advantaged in H&A. They don't deserve or earn anything..

Please explain.

 

[doppleganger]

Please explain.

The AFL enforced ground rationalisation in Melbourne has resulted in Melbourne based teams booted from their preferred home grounds during H&A season.

Melbourne based teams had their home ground advantage slashed.

Non-Melbourne based teams retained their home advantage, but had their away disadvantage slashed.

The numbers back this up, as Non-Melbourne teams are overrepresented at the top end of the ladder come H&A.

The majority of non-Melbourne teams then again get "home" finals in week1-3, something again not afforded to majority of Melbourne teams.

But you still have deluded SA fans in particular complaining that they are dudded and deserve more advantages. At least WA fans do face an arduous travel, something that SA clubs don't.

 

[bzparkes]

The AFL enforced ground rationalisation in Melbourne has resulted in Melbourne based teams booted from their preferred home grounds during H&A season.

Melbourne based teams had their home ground advantage slashed.

Non-Melbourne based teams retained their home advantage, but had their away disadvantage slashed.

The numbers back this up, as Non-Melbourne teams are overrepresented at the top end of the ladder come H&A.

The majority of non-Melbourne teams then again get "home" finals in week1-3, something again not afforded to majority of Melbourne teams.

But you still have deluded SA fans in particular complaining that they are dudded and deserve more advantages. At least WA fans do face an arduous travel, something that SA clubs don't.

Hmm, interstate teams had their disadvantage 'slashed'.. Righteo.

When big Vic clubs leave the state of Victoria no more than 5 times a year, I think your 'lack' of a true home ground are negated.

What constitutes a home ground advantage anyway? Surely having the bigger crowd would give you the 'advantage' in any scenario? What does it matter if you don't have to sleep away from your house for 17 rounds a season + sleep in your own bed on GF day, should your team make it that far?

I'd say the utter mismanagement of certain Vic clubs over the years would point to the reason why Non-Vic clubs are 'over-represented' in the top of the ladder at the end of the H&A season. The mid-bottom of the ladder is clogged with perennial loser Vic clubs who may one day get their shit together. This has nothing to do with any 'advantages' the non-Vic clubs get.

Moot point anyway, how many interstate clubs have won a GF in the past 11 years again? That'd be 2. Oh, and 6 of those past flags have gone to MCG tenants(with one at the Gabba), who get to play the grand final at their home ground regardless of ladder position, just for the record...

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Well I might observe that WCE have had the first 300 game player this season after 35 seasons while Footscray/Bulldogs have had 3 if not 4 in the same period and almost all melbourne and Adelaide clubs have had more. As for WCE travelling well, they have performed well enough on the road in years when they have had dominant sides. In those years where they have had moderate to average sides they are frequently accused of being flat track home ground bullies because their record on the road is perceived to be so poor.
You ridicule others' evidence suggesting travel does hinder performance, but then offer evidence of a dominant Hawthorn's record while travelling as evidence to the contrary. Ignoring of course that at least a third of their 'travelling' games were to their second home ground at Yorke Park, to which their opponents were also are required to travel, often much further. So do you suggest that Hathorn travelling one hour to play an opponent, eg Fremantle, which at that time had travelled at least 6 hours, equates to say the WCE travelling to any East Coast venue to play a side that drove from their home to the ground? Or is that just a 'vibe' I imagined?

What, are they going via Brisbane nowadays?

 

[bzparkes]

What, are they going via Brisbane nowadays?

Huh? If they're playing in Launceston it's at least 4 hours to Melbourne, then 45 minutes to Launceston + commute time in between.

Ever been on a plane before?

 

[74561347]

Is Cerra better than Aaron Naughton?

There is a reason your club has an academy to keep NSW talent in NSW. There is plenty of WA talent for the WA clubs, if they choose to take players from another state they risk that player wanting to return home. No different to when Melbourne took Hogan and he returned to Fremantle

What cerra and naughton are like as players now is irrelevant. If we all knew what players would be like later then no one would miss a draft pick.

In that particular draft only 3 WA players went in the top 20. Naughton was the highest at pick 9. The rest of the top 10 were Victorian.

Are you saying interstate clubs should ignore 5 or 10 higher rated players and take someone from their own state? What if the best players from their state that year are key position players and you desperately need a young midfielder? What about in the northern states where it's common to have years with only 1 or 2 players rated in the top 50 pre draft?

 

[doppleganger]

Hmm, interstate teams had their disadvantage 'slashed'.. Righteo.

Yep.

Is it tougher to head to play the Bulldogs at Whitten Oval, Blues at Princess Park and the Saints at Waverley...or instead face all three at Marvel do you not start to become more familiar with an away venue?

Or luck out more and play a Melbourne team at a neutral location where the Melbourne team also has to travel to....

When big Vic clubs leave the state of Victoria no more than 5 times a year, I think your 'lack' of a true home ground are negated.

Who are the big Vic clubs?

Hawthorn, they travel 9 times a year normally.
Richmond, they played "home" games in Cairns for a long time.

What constitutes a home ground advantage anyway?

Yeah if you actually have a think about that you will realise the GF doesn't share the same characteristics as a normal home game.

If not travelling is an important advantage, then during H&A season a team having to travel for a home game surely must then see any advantage reduce?

If a one sided capacity crowd is a key component of home advantage, surely giving that up and having a half empty or more neutral crowd must see any advantage reduce.

If routine is supposedly important, than having a week that deviates from the regular home routine would change psychological advantage.

If ground familiarity is important than playing away at a venue multiple times, must become easier than at individual venues.

And advantage / disadvantage must balance out...if the home team has a 2 goal advantage, the away team has a 2 goal disadvantage.

But no what you get is WA fans running with herp derp style responses like it is your home game, if you sell it you still get the advantage.

 

[Blackas87]

What cerra and naughton are like as players now is irrelevant. If we all knew what players would be like later then no one would miss a draft pick.

In that particular draft only 3 WA players went in the top 20. Naughton was the highest at pick 9. The rest of the top 10 were Victorian.

Are you saying interstate clubs should ignore 5 or 10 higher rated players and take someone from their own state? What if the best players from their state that year are key position players and you desperately need a young midfielder? What about in the northern states where it's common to have years with only 1 or 2 players rated in the top 50 pre draft?

Any club can draft from anywhere but they run the risk of that player wanting to return home, They are people not some thing a club owns. No different to Melbourne selecting Hogan and Fremantle targeting him for years which they ended up getting.

That’s Kind of my point, we don’t know who’ll end up the best from the draft so why take Cerra a Victorian over a WA player in Naughton? Even more so Considering for years they were after a key forward and a year later traded for Hogan. They were both talented teenagers with bright futures, For all we know majority of clubs could of rated Naughton higher, Cerra only went higher because Fremantle selected him. Maybe Fremantle not winning a premiership has to do with them not drafting a key forward for years? I think it would of been smart for Freo to draft the talented Western Australian Key forward over a Victorian midfielder. So yes if they look at their draft strategy they could of had a young gun Western Australian key forward for years to come over a Victorian midfielder wanting to go home.

Other than Brisbane and Fremantle in that draft all the other clubs with top 10 picks were Victorian clubs, might have something to do with Victorian players being selected in the top 10. Adelaide had pick 12 and drafted South Australian Darcy Fogarty, I dare say if they had a top 10 pick they still would of selected him as there were a lot mock drafts that had him in the top 5.

Building a list doesn’t take one draft, over a 4-5 year period there would always be key position players and midfielders coming out of WA, that same draft West Coast took 3 WA players with their first 4 picks, Oscar Allen, Liam Ryan and Branden Ainsworth, West Coast play the percentages and draft local talent and they’ve made 25 finals over the past 35 years, most of any club, can’t say there is no talent in WA.

The Northern States are in growing markets, it’s up to those clubs to grow the game in their backyard to produce local talent, they have all got academies for when there is local talent they get to keep them. You want more local talent? Go out and grow the game. The Victorian clubs have grown the game strong in Victoria over 100 plus years to where every kid grows up dreaming of playing Aussie Rules, now you want to penalise the Victorian clubs because Victoria produces a lot of players?

If club needs to have a strategy for the backyard they lie in.

 

[74561347]

Any club can draft from anywhere but they run the risk of that player wanting to return home, They are people not some thing a club owns. No different to Melbourne selecting Hogan and Fremantle targeting him for years which they ended up getting.

That’s Kind of my point, we don’t know who’ll end up the best from the draft so why take Cerra a Victorian over a WA player in Naughton? Even more so Considering for years they were after a key forward and a year later traded for Hogan. They were both talented teenagers with bright futures, For all we know majority of clubs could of rated Naughton higher, Cerra only went higher because Fremantle selected him. Maybe Fremantle not winning a premiership has to do with them not drafting a key forward for years? I think it would of been smart for Freo to draft the talented Western Australian Key forward over a Victorian midfielder. So yes if they look at their draft strategy they could of had a young gun Western Australian key forward for years to come over a Victorian midfielder wanting to go home.

Other than Brisbane and Fremantle in that draft all the other clubs with top 10 picks were Victorian clubs, might have something to do with Victorian players being selected in the top 10. Adelaide had pick 12 and drafted South Australian Darcy Fogarty, I dare say if they had a top 10 pick they still would of selected him as there were a lot mock drafts that had him in the top 5.

Building a list doesn’t take one draft, over a 4-5 year period there would always be key position players and midfielders coming out of WA, that same draft West Coast took 3 WA players with their first 4 picks, Oscar Allen, Liam Ryan and Branden Ainsworth, West Coast play the percentages and draft local talent and they’ve made 25 finals over the past 35 years, most of any club, can’t say there is no talent in WA.

The Northern States are in growing markets, it’s up to those clubs to grow the game in their backyard to produce local talent, they have all got academies for when there is local talent they get to keep them. You want more local talent? Go out and grow the game. The Victorian clubs have grown the game strong in Victoria over 100 plus years to where every kid grows up dreaming of playing Aussie Rules, now you want to penalise the Victorian clubs because Victoria produces a lot of players?

If club needs to have a strategy for the backyard they lie in.

I don't want to penalise victorian clubs. I have never mentioned the victorian clubs, my club or the academies. I think the academies are fantastic, and they are growing the game. I'm even happy to continue to pay for them with no AFL support after they have completely abdicated their role in growing the game in the northern states.

I just simply want first round draftees held to longer initial contracts to the club that drafts them. If they then choose to leave, you're much more likely to get better compensation for a 22yo than a 20yo. Given that nearly 60% of the playing base is from Victoria, why should interstate sides have to take lesser rated draft prospects simply because those players are from their home state? What if you have pick 1 and the top 10 prospects are Victorian? Should they seriously not take one?

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Huh? If they're playing in Launceston it's at least 4 hours to Melbourne, then 45 minutes to Launceston + commute time in between.

Ever been on a plane before?

Just curious as to why you attributed only one hour of travel time then between Melbourne and Launceston? Why are you including commute time at departure location, check-in, luggage drop, departure lounge wait, runway taxi-ing, luggage pick-up, commute time at destination etc for Freo but not for Hawthorn?

 

[bh90210fan]

In week1,2 and 3 finals at the G (when Pies have an advantage) we are 10-4 against non-Melbourne teams - Cats in 07PF and 09PF, 2 of the 4 losses.

In GFs we are 0-4 against non-Melbourne teams.

Had no problems beating the Lions in 03QF during their peak when we had home advantage.

But come GF day when the advantage isn't the same we have no advantage.

The numbers are pretty easy to follow, non-Melbourne teams are advantaged in H&A. They don't deserve or earn anything.

And GF results don't align with regular H&A stats as the advantage isn't the same.

No, you do have an advantage on gf day. Of course you do

and if non melbourne clubs didn’t warrant their spot in the finals race then they shouldn’t be pulling your pants down at home all the time. In any final.