Why are we not talking about this?

[domus]

I think you know that I could find many such lines.

I won't indulge you, though. Go to bed.

I am.

 

[ZEV]

Had nothing but many great friendships with parents of both genders. They were random feminists who lived in another state. I had the honour of walking one of my female students down the aisle on her wedding day. These same feminists had restraining orders placed on them after my friend took them to court and they were ordered to remove all of their false allegations and smut.

Was there any specific reason they targeted you from interstate? That sounds traumatic and horrible.

 

[JB1975]

I am.

Alright then. Go.

 

[ZEV]

Had nothing but many great friendships with parents of both genders. They were random feminists who lived in another state. I had the honour of walking one of my female students down the aisle on her wedding day. These same feminists had restraining orders placed on them after my friend took them to court and they were ordered to remove all of their false allegations and smut.

I'm concerned that a student was getting married, and that you were involved in the ceremony. That seems entirely inappropriate.

Can you clarify how your "friend" took them to court for an intervention order if they were interstate? Did they travel interstate for the hearing? A lot of things don't seem right with that statement...

 

[The Royal Sampler]

I'm concerned that a student was getting married, and that you were involved in the ceremony. That seems entirely inappropriate.

Can you clarify how your "friend" took them to court for an intervention order if they were interstate? Did they travel interstate for the hearing? A lot of things don't seem right with that statement...

He may have meant a former student, once they were of age. That would be the natural assumption if we weren’t all gathered with torches and pitchforks.

 

[ZEV]

He may have meant a former student, once they were of age. That would be the natural assumption if we weren’t all gathered with torches and pitchforks.

Yeah maybe, but once random feminists suspect you are a danger to children and you start writing letters to Rosie Batty critiquing her and her actions all natural assumptions are off...

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Yeah maybe, but once random feminists suspect you are a danger to children and you start writing letters to Rosie Batty critiquing her and her actions all natural assumptions are off...

So the vaguely held suspicions of random people are the benchmark for withdrawing assumptions of basic human decency?

I really don’t think we’re collectively up to debating these matters here. Everyone just comes along with their agendas in tow, delighting in labelling others, telling people who they are and what they must think, and no-one learns a thing.

Walking the tightrope of what the thread is about; female umpires are in a fairly precarious position, and will need society to catch up to contemporary standards in terms of appropriate facilities being provided, and eradication of boorish or aggressive behaviour from neanderthals if they are to be able to invest of themselves in the game as we’d all hope.

 

[ZEV]

So the vaguely held suspicions of random people are the benchmark for withdrawing assumptions of basic human decency?

I really don’t think we’re collectively up to debating these matters here. Everyone just comes along with their agendas in tow, delighting in labelling others, telling people who they are and what they must think, and no-one learns a thing.

Walking the tightrope of what the thread is about; female umpires are in a fairly precarious position, and will need society to catch up to contemporary standards in terms of appropriate facilities being provided, and eradication of boorish or aggressive behaviour from neanderthals if they are to be able to invest of themselves in the game as we’d all hope.

Well lets be clear, judging by Domus' self stated circumstances it appears that the vaguely held suspicions of allegedly random people have been the cause of his withdrawal of basic human decency.

There is no delight taken learning about a poster writing to the mother of a murdered child telling her what to expect. Its disgusting.

Also when it comes to the safety of children, yes, I 100% support the withdrawing of "basic human decency".

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Also when it comes to the safety of children, yes, I 100% support the withdrawing of "basic human decency".

Yes this is precisely the sort of dogmatic drivel I’m referring to. People are obviously afforded the assumption of innocence, up to at least some arbitrary point, even when child safety is involved. Even by you.

The difference is your threshold for withdrawing that assumption is lower than mine. But your insistence on making your stance a reductive, partisan one makes any meaningful discourse impossible.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Again you've decided to overstate the reality of conscription, which wasn't a thing for most of the century and affected very few men.

This is a terrible hill on which to choose to die.

If men weren’t conscripted into war, which they were, they were widely shamed for being cowards or sold on the lie of joining the armed forces as a way of seeing the world, only to wind up dead in a foreign ditch, killed by a mortar shell fired by someone in a similarly dire predicament but a different uniform.

Entire country towns had their young male population wiped out. You know all this and yet you’re trying to minimise it for some baffling reason. Many, many more came back with PTSD and/or gruesome injuries.

Tell him it’s off topic. Tell him we can discuss the challenges facing female umpires, without being drawn into lectures about 20th century imperialism. But don’t tell him he’s wrong! Because on this point at least, he isn’t.

 

[pugsville]

Spo we can;t talk at all about the challenges faced by women in umpires because talking about men is SO much more important.

Men are always more important and we should just talk about them.

They are always bigger victims. And always deserve all the focus.

 

[jathanas]

This is a terrible hill on which to choose to die.

If men weren’t conscripted into war, which they were, they were widely shamed for being cowards or sold on the lie of joining the armed forces as a way of seeing the world, only to wind up dead in a foreign ditch, killed by a mortar shell fired by someone in a similarly dire predicament but a different uniform.

Entire country towns had their young male population wiped out. You know all this and yet you’re trying to minimise it for some baffling reason. Many, many more came back with PTSD and/or gruesome injuries.

Tell him it’s off topic. Tell him we can discuss the challenges facing female umpires, without being drawn into lectures about 20th century imperialism. But don’t tell him he’s wrong! Because on this point at least, he isn’t.

You've identified something important here.

As recently as just a few decades ago the governments of "modern" nations would conscript men as that was accepted to be the combat-ready gender. Men were "protectors" of nation and family.

There is a reason that the views of some men in my generation remain so deeply rooted and set i.e. they were conditioned by institutions and society.

Back to the female umpires. There is a clear failure from their employer to provide a safe working environment (and support as needed). The cowardly thugs that attend the footy and hurl sexist insults from behind the fence should be reported, identified, and banned.

I think the solution is straight forward, the implementation less so.

 

[MyManLynch]

This is a similar situation when the Black Lives Matter movement arose.
Individuals trying to hijack the discussion with “what about white lives?”, “All lives matter”.
We know that all lives matter…however there was/is specific discrimination against one segment of the community…that segment is only looking to catch up…some individuals only want to disrupt, ignore or derail such a discussion.

 

[gouki88]

Yes, it was so much easier when the ladies allowed the menfolk to simply be heroes.

Then one day they came up with the regrettable idea that they could be the heroes of their own lives, the drivers of their own destinies.

It really is incredible that the feminists never knew how good they had it.

We really got to the crux of his worldview here. Women owe it all to men, apparently. Disgusting

 

[Markfs]

i wish men would stop being heroes and get out of public life and see if women could do better. ..which wouldnt be too hard

 

[The Royal Sampler]

We really got to the crux of his worldview here. Women owe it all to men, apparently. Disgusting

I was… bemused shall we say by the labour-saving devices thought bubble. I figured someone was trying to make a buck there, rather than altruistically free women from the shackles of domestic servitude.

 

[loki04]

What was the point? That certain forms of abuse are awful, whereas others are simply part of the game?

I think it's more there are different levels of abuse and some concrete needs to be eaten for the lesser kind of comments, to not make a dull and boring stale nany state!
Where as abuse of a sexual, racial, physical, defamation, personal nature should be stomped on.

If umpires are taking issue with people bemoaning a poor decision and a primary school insult tacked in like "scumpire" (as if a grown man would take that to heart) maybe they need to do a bit of inward looking.
Should be laughing it off as part off the footy banter, I'm betting a lot of them have referred to pies supporters as toothless ferals.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

i wish men would stop being heroes and get out of public life and see if women could do better. ..which wouldnt be too hard

The “seeing if women can do better” part is already happening. Ardern is a rock star in NZ. Finland has a female prime minister in her mid-30’s. Merkel was a serious heavy-hitter as German Chancellor. We have had Gillard as PM. Change is afoot, female heads of state (or equivalent thereof for backward constitutional monarchies like us) are no longer outliers.

 

[Markfs]

I think it's more there are different levels of abuse and some concrete needs to be eaten for the lesser kind of comments, to not make a dull and boring stale nany state!
Where as abuse of a sexual, racial, physical, defamation, personal nature should be stomped on.

If umpires are taking issue with people bemoaning a poor decision and a primary school insult tacked in like "scumpire" (as if a grown man would take that to heart) maybe they need to do a bit of inward looking.
Should be laughing it off as part off the footy banter, I'm betting a lot of them have referred to pies supporters as toothless ferals.

You dont seem to understand the practical aspect here. Women are either leaving umpiring or not joining it because of a whole range of issues. They might start joining if we fix the change rooms or the rape threats, but they might want to feel appreciated....and they mightnt like the banter....and they might continue to stay away...."get over it" wont address this.

yes people might be more or too sensitive these days ....but that's the reality....

 

[Markfs]

The “seeing if women can do better” part is already happening. Ardern is a rock star in NZ. Finland has a female prime minister in her mid-30’s. Merkel was a serious heavy-hitter as German Chancellor. We have had Gillard as PM. Change is afoot, female heads of state (or equivalent thereof for backward constitutional monarchies like us) are no longer outliers.

well lets get on with it and hand over the reins. supposedly i've been in charge for my lifetime and i must admit it never felt that way....but evidently i impose things on women and determine people's lives. Well I dont want to do that. Take it away from me. I am happy to be marginalised if it means we dont have war or if the planet continues to exist.

 

[Maggie5]

Going back to the topic of the thread... the AFL has apologised yet I can't find it on their website, only on main media.

AFL formally apologises after damning report about female Aussie rules umpires

Acting AFL chief executive Kylie Rogers issues an apology to female and non-binary umpires after a report detailed a culture of sexual harassment, misogyny and spectator abuse.

www.abc.net.au

I had missed this atricle...

It has been reported Cervantes Tiger Sharks president Dale Simmons used Facebook to condemn the AFL's decision to use a female field umpire in the West Coast Eagles game against Essendon at the weekend.

Mr Simmons labelled umpire Eleni Glouftsis a "dopey mole [sic]" and a "stupid bitch", and said she would change her mind on decisions because she was female.

He has previously used Facebook to denounce the role of women in the sport, referring to female AFL players as dykes, saying the mother/daughter rule should only apply to the canteen roster, and mocking the notion of equal pay for AFL players.

Mr Simmons has declined to comment and his Facebook page is no longer visible.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

I am happy to be marginalised if it means we dont have war or if the planet continues to exist.

You shouldn’t have used “or” in there. So it’s marginalization for you while the planet continues to exist. In your box!

Seriously though, of course you are right; by being born male you are not necessarily admitted to the top 1% of the 1% who have actual power and get to not only make decisions, but profit from the misery of others…

 

[loki04]

You dont seem to understand the practical aspect here. Women are either leaving umpiring or not joining it because of a whole range of issues. They might start joining if we fix the change rooms or the rape threats, but they might want to feel appreciated....and they mightnt like the banter....and they might continue to stay away...."get over it" wont address this.

yes people might be more or too sensitive these days ....but that's the reality....

Well if it's too hot in the kitchen then don't cook.

Not "might", "are" is the word you are looking for.

They should be trained to not take it to heart given it wouldn't matter who was wearing the umpires kit it is generally not personal.

They could have robots in and people would still make those quips.

Again this is not in reference to the stuff in that article but the primary school insults and sookingbat decisions.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Going back to the topic of the thread... the AFL has apologised yet I can't find it on their website, only on main media.

AFL formally apologises after damning report about female Aussie rules umpires

Acting AFL chief executive Kylie Rogers issues an apology to female and non-binary umpires after a report detailed a culture of sexual harassment, misogyny and spectator abuse.

www.abc.net.au

I had missed this atricle...

It has been reported Cervantes Tiger Sharks president Dale Simmons used Facebook to condemn the AFL's decision to use a female field umpire in the West Coast Eagles game against Essendon at the weekend.

Mr Simmons labelled umpire Eleni Glouftsis a "dopey mole [sic]" and a "stupid bitch", and said she would change her mind on decisions because she was female.

He has previously used Facebook to denounce the role of women in the sport, referring to female AFL players as dykes, saying the mother/daughter rule should only apply to the canteen roster, and mocking the notion of equal pay for AFL players.

Mr Simmons has declined to comment and his Facebook page is no longer visible.

Holy shitballs. Where is Cervantes? Remind me to never visit. Incredible that this person could represent any group that doesn’t wear a pillow case with eyeholes cut out.

 

[JB1975]

This is a terrible hill on which to choose to die.

If men weren’t conscripted into war, which they were, they were widely shamed for being cowards or sold on the lie of joining the armed forces as a way of seeing the world, only to wind up dead in a foreign ditch, killed by a mortar shell fired by someone in a similarly dire predicament but a different uniform.

Entire country towns had their young male population wiped out. You know all this and yet you’re trying to minimise it for some baffling reason. Many, many more came back with PTSD and/or gruesome injuries.

Tell him it’s off topic. Tell him we can discuss the challenges facing female umpires, without being drawn into lectures about 20th century imperialism. But don’t tell him he’s wrong! Because on this point at least, he isn’t.

I don't choose to die on hills. If I'm dying on a hill then something horrible has happened to bring me to that point.

If we're arguing about Australia, and it seemed we were, then it isn't wrong at all to say that the overwhelming majority of soldiers were not conscripts:

• Two referendums for conscription during WWI, both failed. Men mostly went out of a duty to Empire, to see the world, or to have some fun with their mates. A portion were shamed if they didn't go, but some were expected to stay (to help with family farms, to be one of the 3-4 brothers who didn't enlist etc.) but often went anyway. The fact that there were a majority of people in both referendums who opposed conscription, that should suggest that many --most-- believed it should be a personal choice and they weren't interested in shaming young blokes for staying at home. In any case, no conscription.
• There was no conscription for overseas service in WWII, but conscription for domestic defence. At the same time, women were being conscripted into auxiliary forces as well as a labour army to address shortages. Eventually, some of those 'domestic defence' blokes ended up in PNG (e.g. Kokoda etc.), but this was a slim minority of overall active service.
• Korea--No conscription.
• Vietnam--Conscription. I acknowledged this in last night's exchanges, so your issue presumably lies elsewhere.

I'm not inclined to distort the picture to make a broader point, but if I'm wrong about these things then I'm happy to acknowledge it. War is savage, and I've never obscured the emotional and social costs of it (one of the reasons I'm not big on Anzac Day, because it feels more parochial than it used to be), but it seems clear that the tragedy of war in Australia has unfolded without the help of conscription.