Why are we not talking about this?

[domus]

Men are the victims. Can't be any other way.

Gotcha.

Nonsense. Why do you do that? Men are not always victims nor are women. Surely nothing I have said regarding the societal issues I listed before was in any way deceitful or misleading. Are the alarming suicide rates of males or the death of so many men in their place of work not serious issues tearing apart families? I'm not blaming anyone for this state of affairs but that in no way lessens the impact of these deaths and the fact that if it was women dying in these numbers these issues would be front page news on a daily basis.

We rarely if ever see these issues spoken about in public forums. It seems to provoke a visceral response from many to go near the idea of male suffering and vulnerability. Some seem to think it indicates a hatred of women to acknowledge male pain.

Why?

I love all of the women in my life as I do the men. There is no either/or.

There was once a wonderful time when we didn't break people up into tribes based upon their gender. We spoke about people and individuals who just happened to be male or female.



I don't get it.

Good night.

 

[gouki88]

There was once a wonderful time when we didn't break people up into tribes based upon their gender. We spoke about people and individuals who just happened to be male or female.

Pining for the days when women were second-class citizens in every sense of the word? Before they had the audacity to think they deserved equal treatment eh? Glory days!

 

[domus]

You seriously think people don't deserve respect unless they've "earnt" it?

I guess that kind of moronic take is perfectly in line with the other vomit you've posted in this thread.

Such sad comments. Point to one line of vomit I have posted tonight. Moronic? You are so offensive.
You ignore my entire comment where I say everyone we meet should be treated with kindness and courtesy before saying respect should be earned and try to twist it into something nasty. Whose the sick one?

 

[JB1975]

There was once a wonderful time when we didn't break people up into tribes based upon their gender. We spoke about people and individuals who just happened to be male or female.

When was that wonderful time?

That's right, it was before the 1970s wasn't it, before the second wave of feminism popped up to point out that all was not well in the world, that we're not all 'just people' and that being born a male or a female can actually determine much about the rest of your life.

Yeah, what a wonderful f****** time.

Goodnight mate.

PS: Careful, your empathy is slipping off.

 

[gouki88]

Such sad comments. Point to one line of vomit I have posted tonight. Moronic? You are so offensive.
You ignore my entire comment where I say everyone we meet should be treated with kindness and courtesy before saying respect should be earned and try to twist it into something nasty. Whose the sick one?

I ignore your disingenuous, performative comments because they are meaningless. You saying you're a caring, empathetic person runs counter to all the vile beliefs you hold about marginalised groups.

I am actively trying to offend you, because I find your posts disgusting. The less opinions like yours the better.

 

[domus]

Pining for the days when women were second-class citizens in every sense of the word? Before they had the audacity to think they deserved equal treatment eh? Glory days!

You are so ignorant.

Men and women had it tough in the past. Both were restricted and "oppressed" by their biology.

Most men adored their wives and worked hard in jobs they often hated in order to provide for them.

So during this era of female oppression what were the first class citizens doing in the last 120 years ? Dying on battlefields all over the world, mostly after being conscripted, working in physically back breaking jobs until retiring old and grey and dropping dead a couple of years later. Fortunately the life longevity gap has closed over the years but back when women were oppressed they were living many years longer than men.

It was men who invented the pill which freed women from the biological chains which held them back for centuries. It was men who invented countless labor and time saving devices to save valuable time for women who could now turn their attention to the world outside of their home. Such monsters.

Why do you form this idea of who I am and then attack the strawman you invented? Where have I inferred or stated that I wanted women to be treated like second class citizens? You are jumping all over the place. How do you get there because I asked you and others to feel compassion for male suffering? It's incredible.

 

[ZEV]

Perhaps I'm old fashioned and going to cop some heat for this generalisation but girls/ladies/women need to be protected more because they are more vulnerable. because of bad men.

 

[ZEV]

So during this era of female oppression what were the first class citizens doing in the last 120 years ? Dying on battlefields all over the world, mostly after being conscripted, working in physically back breaking jobs until retiring old and grey and dropping dead a couple of years later. Fortunately the life longevity gap has closed over the years but back when women were oppressed they were living many years longer than men.

Bombs dropped on civilians don't discriminate.

My grandfather who fought in ww2 along with his brothers taught me to look after my sister no matter what.

 

[JB1975]

It was men who invented the pill which freed women from the biological chains which held them back for centuries. It was men who invented countless labor and time saving devices to save valuable time for women who could now turn their attention to the world outside of their home. Such monsters.

Yes, it was so much easier when the ladies allowed the menfolk to simply be heroes.

Then one day they came up with the regrettable idea that they could be the heroes of their own lives, the drivers of their own destinies.

It really is incredible that the feminists never knew how good they had it.

 

[domus]

When was that wonderful time?

That's right, it was before the 1970s wasn't it, before the second wave of feminism popped up to point out that all was not well in the world, that we're not all 'just people' and that being born a male or a female can actually determine much about the rest of your life.

Yeah, what a wonderful f****** time.

Goodnight mate.

PS: Careful, your empathy is slipping off.

What are you talking about? Please quote to me my words suggesting that I don't want women to have everything they have now and more? What is wrong with you? You keep attacking your idea of who I am-a boogeyman you've created. I've posted a great deal on this issue. It should be easy for you to show me up as a woman hater. Go ahead.

You are right to suggest our gender certainly can determine what happens to you in your life. Men were conscripted to fight in wars whether they wished to go or not and were jailed if they refused. That was fairly oppressive. I think being a female had its advantages at times. There were also tough hurdles for women, especially before the pill became available. I feel for them too.

Why do you keep assuming I oppose the rights of women in any way?

 

[domus]

Bombs dropped on civilians don't discriminate.

My grandfather who fought in ww2 along with his brothers taught me to look after my sister no matter what.

I'm not sure I get your point. I'd hope you'd look after your sister whether your dad told you to or not. I know I would.

 

[JB1975]

What are you talking about? Please quote to me my words suggesting that I don't want women to have everything they have now and more? What is wrong with you? You keep attacking your idea of who I am-a boogeyman you've created. I've posted a great deal on this issue. It should be easy for you to show me up as a woman hater. Go ahead.

You are right to suggest our gender certainly can determine what happens to you in your life. Men were conscripted to fight in wars whether they wished to go or not and were jailed if they refused. That was fairly oppressive. I think being a female had its advantages at times. There were also tough hurdles for women, especially before the pill became available. I feel for them too.

Why do you keep assuming I oppose the rights of women in any way?

I didn't suggest that you hate women, although I remember once you posted that you'd written an abusive letter to Rosie Batty, because you thought that a woman whose son had been killed by her abusive husband should do more to draw attention to the evils of women. That made me wonder.

I feel pretty sure, on the other hand, that you hate feminism and most of what it stands for. Am I wrong?

 

[domus]

Yes, it was so much easier when the ladies allowed the menfolk to simply be heroes.

Then one day they came up with the regrettable idea that they could be the heroes of their own lives, the drivers of their own destinies.

It really is incredible that the feminists never knew how good the had it.

What? How were men who were chained to a grinding, back breaking job for life any more free than women who were left at home raising the kids ( a job which was far more rewarding and important). How were men given the opportunity to be the hero of their lives? What aspect of reality do you not understand?

How were most men the drivers of their own destinies? The millions of men who left school and got a job at the age of 17 and were expected to stay in that job for the next 50 years while facing the reality of being conscripted to one of the many wars of the last century.

I still recall the train carriages filled with exhausted men reading their newspaper or staring out the windows thinking about how privileged they were. Give me a break. I've already said both genders faced burdens due to their gender. Why are you trying to propagate the notion that one gender was privileged and pampered while the other was subjugated and denied any joy?

Most women I know still don't want a lifetime career even though they have the option because they realize that a balanced life, taking the time to smell the roses and raise a family is something that brings them a greater sense of purpose and joy. But others who don't feel that way can pursue a career for 50 years if they so desire.

 

[ZEV]

What? How were men who were chained to a grinding, back breaking job for life any more free than women who were left at home raising the kids ( a job which was far more rewarding and important). How were men given the opportunity to be the hero of their lives? What aspect of reality do you not understand?

How were most men the drivers of their own destinies? The millions of men who left school and got a job at the age of 17 and were expected to stay in that job for the next 50 years while facing the reality of being conscripted to one of the many wars of the last century.

I still recall the train carriages filled with exhausted men reading their newspaper or staring out the windows thinking about how privileged they were. Give me a break. I've already said both genders faced burdens due to their gender. Why are you trying to propagate the notion that one gender was privileged and pampered while the other was subjugated and denied any joy?

Most women I know still don't want a lifetime career even though they have the option because they realize that a balanced life, taking the time to smell the roses and raise a family is something that brings them a greater sense of purpose and joy. But others who don't feel that way can pursue a career for 50 years if they so desire.

She must have been a very special and beautiful lady whoever broke your heart

 

[domus]

I didn't suggest that you hate women, although I remember once you posted that you'd written an abusive letter to Rosie Batty, because you thought that a woman whose son had been killed by her abusive husband should do more to draw attention to the evils of women. That made me wonder.

I feel pretty sure, on the other hand, that you hate feminism and most of what it stands for. Am I wrong?

I hate any ideology which uses hatred of a group to promote its agenda. Many others have suggested I hate women and I am sick of having that sort of crap thrown at me. If you can't acknowledge the twisted direction feminism has taken in the past decade or more we cannot engage on the subject. I have felt the brunt of this hatred on a personal level as has a dear female friend of mine who literally had to leave her hometown due to the threats, intimidation and abuse she was subjected to for daring to say what I say-men are worthy of our empathy and compassion too.

That is all I have ever asked for or written about and for that I have had a feminist group demanding I be sacked as a teacher because I was a clear danger to the girls in my care. For a time you could Google my name and that shit came up. There have been many other personal experiences where the rage and hatred from feminists who refused to discuss any issue but prefer to chant and scream and bang drums rather than allow a group of people (many women as well) to gather and discuss issues affecting men in today's world.

I could cite many examples of the behavior I abhor. I love the females in my life I adore my daughter and three granddaughters. I want the best for them and all women.

I never wrote an abusive letter to Rosie Batty. I wrote a letter criticizing her promotion of the lie that domestic violence is a result of nothing more than toxic masculinity. In that letter I asked why she spoke to the National Press a week after the Cairns mother had hacked her eight children to death and made no reference to this shocking act of violence. I asked her how she could make the claim that men must take responsibility for the actions of a tiny minority of males when there had been a number of cases of child and partner murder by women.

That is not abuse. I gave her my sincere condolences and expressed my heartfelt sadness for her shocking loss but went onto explain that once you become a public figure advising governments on their DV policy and advising the government on the best use the hundreds of millions of tax payers dollars in funding you are a person who must be willing to answer questions and receive some scrutiny.

If one of the many dads who have lost his kids because his wife killed them had been voted Australian of the Year and proceeded to say all family violence was a result of toxic femininity and all women were collectively responsible for ending this behaviour I am sure he would receive one or two letters far less polite than mine.

 

[JB1975]

What? How were men who were chained to a grinding, back breaking job for life any more free than women who were left at home raising the kids ( a job which was far more rewarding and important). How were men given the opportunity to be the hero of their lives? What aspect of reality do you not understand?

How were most men the drivers of their own destinies? The millions of men who left school and got a job at the age of 17 and were expected to stay in that job for the next 50 years while facing the reality of being conscripted to one of the many wars of the last century.

I still recall the train carriages filled with exhausted men reading their newspaper or staring out the windows thinking about how privileged they were. Give me a break. I've already said both genders faced burdens due to their gender. Why are you trying to propagate the notion that one gender was privileged and pampered while the other was subjugated and denied any joy?

Most women I know still don't want a lifetime career even though they have the option because they realize that a balanced life, taking the time to smell the roses and raise a family is something that brings them a greater sense of purpose and joy. But others who don't feel that way can pursue a career for 50 years if they so desire.

Again you've decided to overstate the reality of conscription, which wasn't a thing for most of the century and affected very few men. But that's designed to fit your narrative, isn't it, the one where men have struggled and suffered for most of history while too many feminists just refuse to realise that they had it so good at the same time.

It's a tired narrative, mate, and it is filled with stereotyped reminiscences about the men of olden times which are mostly garbage.

I try to avoid stereotype...not always successfully. There are/were women in my family whose lives revolved around the house and children, and those things made them happy and satisfied. Even when their husbands were drunk and abusive, they didn't feel trapped...they just hated their husbands.

But women --as women-- were denied many choices. In your mind, all blokes were conscripted to fight war so you might not like my understanding of the past, but the reality is that opportunities for females were circumscribed because they were female.

If they were working class females, and Catholic, then that was often worse. A lot of women simply were not allowed to work, or to stay at work once they married, and they did feel trapped, and they did resent the fact that they were told that they couldn't or shouldn't work like men. That is fact.

No one will deny that men had it hard, that working class blokes suffered under the burden of low wages and low expectations, from the pressure of supporting a family etc. They did suffer. They were fodder for the system, and occasionally for war. But no one should be allowed to deny that there was a legal and cultural system in place which limited the opportunities and life chances of women in dramatic ways, which was at the heart of women's liberation.

One of the things which always interested me about women's lib in Australia is that it grew out of the anti-war and anti-conscription movement. The young women of that movement were doing their best to fight for the rights of those young blokes being carded to Vietnam, and even within that movement they were made to feel like second-class citizens, told to bring scones and make cups of tea.

So they formed their own movement, and blokes have been having a whinge about it ever since.

And now we still have men who can't accept the findings of a report about the abuse of female umpires, because they're too busy trying to assure us that we all suffer. Yeah, we sure do...but how about we actually have a think about the particular causes of that suffering?

 

[domus]

She must have been a very special and beautiful lady whoever broke your heart

There it is! That's the other one. Nobody ever asks women (or men) who write about toxic masculinity and male privilege what tall dark and handsome man broke their heart. Why is that? It's so piss-weak. Make an argument or critique what I said but please give upon the tired perjoratives.

I'm married to a drop dead gorgeous woman. Been married for 43 years and loved every second of it. Had dinner with three different female friends last week with my gorgeous wife by my side. Visiting another female mate from school who is recovering from breast cancer tomorrow morning. I love her to death. Like all of the others you have no idea who I am.

 

[ZEV]

There it is! That's the other one. Nobody ever asks women (or men) who write about toxic masculinity and male privilege what tall dark and handsome man broke their heart. Why is that? It's so piss-weak. Make an argument or critique what I said but please give upon the tired perjoratives.

I'm married to a drop dead gorgeous woman. Been married for 43 years and loved every second of it. Had dinner with three different female friends last week with my gorgeous wife by my side. Visiting another female mate from school who is recovering from breast cancer tomorrow morning. I love her to death. Like all of the others you have no idea who I am.

So glad to hear.

Why were the feminists demanding you be sacked? Were they random feminists or parent feminists or other teacher feminists? I think I'm starting to understand where you are coming from.

 

[JB1975]

I never wrote an abusive letter to Rosie Batty. I wrote a letter criticizing her promotion of the lie that domestic violence is a result of nothing more than toxic masculinity. In that letter I asked why she spoke to the National Press a week after the Cairns mother had hacked her eight children to death and made no reference to this shocking act of violence. I asked her how she could make the claim that men must take responsibility for the actions of a tiny minority of males when there had been a number of cases of child and partner murder by women.

That is not abuse.

There are differences, domus.

There are differences in the nature of the abuse suffered by female umpires.

There are differences in the types of abuse and violence committed by men and women. My own belief is that the term 'toxic masculinity' is overused and overstretched to the point of meaninglessness, but this does nothing to disguise the fact that men who commit violence against partners and children often do so as a way of regaining or asserting control.

Women who commit violence against their partners are more common than believed, but that violence is --by and large-- less severe and less systematic. And the fatal violence that women commit against children is also often characterised by very particular things, not least of which is post-natal depression.

I suspect you don't much care for post-natal psychosis, or the fact that the task of raising children can be accompanied by severe psychological distress, but in any case these things are...things.

It's interesting that the feminists of the 1970s were actually the most vocal in drawing attention to women's violence against their own children. They wanted to promote the fact that motherhood was not a 'natural' state, and that the minds of some women were fundamentally unable to handle it.

 

[JB1975]

There it is! That's the other one. Nobody ever asks women (or men) who write about toxic masculinity and male privilege what tall dark and handsome man broke their heart. Why is that? It's so piss-weak. Make an argument or critique what I said but please give upon the tired perjoratives.

I'm married to a drop dead gorgeous woman. Been married for 43 years and loved every second of it. Had dinner with three different female friends last week with my gorgeous wife by my side. Visiting another female mate from school who is recovering from breast cancer tomorrow morning. I love her to death. Like all of the others you have no idea who I am.

No one is really trying to figure you out, or pretending to know you.

For myself, I only judge you on what you write and I'm frequently horrified by what I read.

 

[domus]

Again you've decided to overstate the reality of conscription, which wasn't a thing for most of the century and affected very few men. But that's designed to fit your narrative, isn't it, the one where men have struggled and suffered for most of history while too many feminists just refuse to realise that they had it so good at the same time.

It's a tired narrative, mate, and it is filled with stereotyped reminiscences about the men of olden times which are mostly garbage.

I try to avoid stereotype...not always successfully. There are/were women in my family whose lives revolved around the house and children, and those things made them happy and satisfied. Even when their husbands were drunk and abusive, they didn't feel trapped...they just hated their husbands.

But women --as women-- were denied many choices. In your mind, all blokes were conscripted to fight war so you might not like my understanding of the past, but the reality is that opportunities for females were circumscribed because they were female.

If they were working class females, and Catholic, then that was often worse. A lot of women simply were not allowed to work, or to stay at work once they married, and they did feel trapped, and they did resent the fact that they were told that they couldn't or shouldn't work like men. That is fact.

No one will deny that men had it hard, that working class blokes suffered under the burden of low wages and low expectations, from the pressure of supporting a family etc. They did suffer. They were fodder for the system, and occasionally for war. But no one should be allowed to deny that there was a legal and cultural system in place which limited the opportunities and life chances of women in dramatic ways, which was at the heart of women's liberation.

One of the things which always interested me about women's lib in Australia is that it grew out of the anti-war and anti-conscription movement. The young women of that movement were doing their best to fight for the rights of those young blokes being carded to Vietnam, and even within that movement they were made to feel like second-class citizens, told to bring scones and make cups of tea.

So they formed their own movement, and blokes have been having a whinge about it ever since.

And now we still have men who can't accept the findings of a report about the abuse of female umpires, because they're too busy trying to assure us that we all suffer. Yeah, we sure do...but how about we actually have a think about the particular causes of that suffering?

Thank you for finally enagaging in a discussion instead of attacking me with put downs. It's refeshing.

You are doing what you accuse me of doing. You do know there were and are abusive, alcoholic mums out there too. The old cliches about the drunken abusive dad is as stereotypical as anything you say I wrote.

Yes-there were obstacles to women in the workforce and in pursuing a career. I have acknowledged that. Even those laws were in place for as long as they were because women gave birth to children on a regular basis if married back then so the man was considered to be the primary and usually the only provider. This is why women (rightly or wrongly) were paid less.
Men were seen to be supporting a wife and children as well as themselves.

It wasn't a bunch of moustache twirling villains concocting new ideas to drag women down. In fact if that were the case women would never have succeeded with feminism or any other ideology. The fact is many men were onside with the new ideas and it was due to male ingenuity than women were finally freed from their biology and the drudgery of the kitchen and laundry.

Why is the narrative that most men were trapped in jobs they hated for decades, garbage? I think there is nothing truer than that statement. This is my point. Things have changed dramatically for women in the past few decades but nothing much has changed for men. They still have the same societal expectations- provide and work for a lifetime. Women have options.

Just last week my sister in law told me her daughter was taking the year off next year as she is tired and wants to freshen up and have a break. She has no kids. Her husband is a house painter. Nobody asked him if he wanted a year off work. He wasn't even a part of the conversation. I see this all the time in my workplace. Don't tell me feminism freed men too. The modern woman can work fulltime, part time or not at all if she so chooses and has a hubby willing to provide.

Men are still conscripted in time of war. Look at Ukraine. They declared martial law and an edict went out that all males between 18 and 65 were ordered to stay and fight. Where were the feminists? I didn't hear a whisper of a protest about this very sexist proclamation. When the shit hits the fan most feminists are very willing to revert back to the stereotype. It really is a have you cake and eat it era. Hubby can be a househusband for a couple of year but don't think we are swapping for the next three decades. When I tire of my job you will be going back into the workforce.

I wonder how many feminists would give up their seat on another Titanic were there young boys on board. Then we'd see how true their creed is! I think I know.

I am going to bed this time.

 

[domus]

No one is really trying to figure you out, or pretending to know you.

For myself, I only judge you on what you write and I'm frequently horrified by what I read.

Again. Quote a line or two which has horrified you.

 

[domus]

So glad to hear.

Why were the feminists demanding you be sacked? Were they random feminists or parent feminists or other teacher feminists? I think I'm starting to understand where you are coming from.

 

[JB1975]

Again. Quote a line or two which has horrified you.

I think you know that I could find many such lines.

I won't indulge you, though. Go to bed.

 

[domus]

So glad to hear.

Why were the feminists demanding you be sacked? Were they random feminists or parent feminists or other teacher feminists? I think I'm starting to understand where you are coming from.

Had nothing but many great friendships with parents of both genders. They were random feminists who lived in another state. I had the honour of walking one of my female students down the aisle on her wedding day. These same feminists had restraining orders placed on them after my friend took them to court and they were ordered to remove all of their false allegations and smut.