Analysis Why are we s**t?

[Yoda_]

Pretty easy to answer. 15 years of 5/10 recruiting. Too many players who have average footy IQ and just chase the ball around like dogs in the park.
Our only hope is if the current football manager can implement what he did at Melbourne where their basket case recruiting was turned around over a 5 or so year period.

I've pointed out how many 'mature' aged guys we've given chances to both demoted to the rookie list and state leaguers.

Rather go for kids and all in than try to fill holes with 5/10 players as you mentioned our recruiting has been. We don't seem to want to make hard choices and this causes problems like Devon Smith receiving a 2 year deal when in reality he should have been delisted.

 

[Yoda_]

Spot on. Had a lot of the same thoughts today. Especially the lack of midfield depth with none playing in the vfl today.

Further on this, we only had Merrett as a genuine midfielder on the injury list. Langford (wing) and Stringer (mid / fwd) at a stretch.


Simply not good enough list management

 

[ghostdog]

We are shit because we are lazy.
As a team our contested possessions were well down on Freo's and we always had work to do to match them. These are our contested ball leaders for this year comparatively;



During the second quarter we lifted our workrate at the contest, and surprise surprise, we kept pace on the scoreboard. In the third we quit work.

I realise I'm responding to one game, so I took a look at North. Look how many players they have in double figures who are hard at the contest;


...and I've been laughing at Port Adelaide, who are currently 18th, but their contested possession numbers are better than ours.


We're not just bog average, we are shit. We don't chase hard enough to get to the contest or force a contest, and when we do we don't take possession. We drank our own bathwater all summer and this is what we stand for. We are a white collar team who don't even want to go to work.
Truck needs a circuit breaker to wake them up. Go to the beach and run up sand dunes all day. Don't want to run on game day? Do it on Wednesday, starting at 4:00am. Wake them up, Truck.

 

[Yoda_]

Great post ghostdog

 

[ghostdog]

Great post ghostdog

I woke up cranky.
Someone also commented that we should give the social media team a break, which I think I agree with. These guys see glowing endorsements of themselves from the EFC propaganda department all the time and believe they are Hollywood stars or something. Maybe the way the social media team does things needs to change because the players are all over it and having a laff. We've just lost. Have the social media team create content that exposes the negative stuff publicly, rather than watching it once at the review and then going through the rinse/repeat.

 

[Schnitzengruben]

I woke up cranky.
Someone also commented that we should give the social media team a break, which I think I agree with. These guys see glowing endorsements of themselves from the EFC propaganda department all the time and believe they are Hollywood stars or something. Maybe the way the social media team does things needs to change because the players are all over it and having a laff. We've just lost. Have the social media team create content that exposes the negative stuff publicly, rather than watching it once at the review and then going through the rinse/repeat.

Yep. I had similar thoughts years ago when we were going shithouse and it was Zaka and Fantasia doing a podcast all smiley and chirpy during the week like nothing was happening.

I know players have lives outside footy and it's a good way to unwind etc, but it leaves a sour taste in my mouth when you're frankly putting more effort into your podcast than you are into your matchday performance.

 

[ghostdog]

Yep. I had similar thoughts years ago when we were going shithouse and it was Zaka and Fantasia doing a podcast all smiley and chirpy during the week like nothing was happening.

I know players have lives outside footy and it's a good way to unwind etc, but it leaves a sour taste in my mouth when you're frankly putting more effort into your podcast than you are into your matchday performance.

Yep. Enough Rish and Rath etc.

 

[ant555]

I've pointed out how many 'mature' aged guys we've given chances to both demoted to the rookie list and state leaguers.

Rather go for kids and all in than try to fill holes with 5/10 players as you mentioned our recruiting has been. We don't seem to want to make hard choices and this causes problems like Devon Smith receiving a 2 year deal when in reality he should have been delisted.

I am not disagreeing in total. It has been a list management failure. The thing is it is not a new thing and the club has actually looked at it and the process so we are two drafts in but still feeling the pain from years of almost having a good draft to having an average draft.
2020 draft we took 5 young blokes. We traded for Caldwell who is 21 so still young.
2021 we took 3 young blokes and McDonagh. Picked up Kelly via FA for not a lot of cap space.
We have also taken Durham , Waterman , Martin and Wanganeen outside of the main so it has been 90% young in the period since Mahony has been on board and Truck has been coach.

Sure you have pointed out the average mature players but they where from a period before we reviewed what we where doing after the 2020 season.
Just on the drafting kids rather than say Geulfi it is not that black and white. He was the third last pick in the ND. He was 20 when he was drafted and looking through the rookie draft there would only be Banfield , Holman and Mihocheck who have gone on and are still playing and all three where 20 plus so they where not young either. I am a little bemused we never really looked at Mihochek given he was the son of a former player and always had decent VFL form.

The Smith pick is what it is. He looks done and we have to carry him next year but even cooked he gave more yesterday than the young forwards could have. He is basically filling a gap. His contract is not even close to the biggest list issues we have and they will never get all the contracts right. Dumb move to give 2 years. Yes. But it does not really set us back a long way.

The thing that has set us back the most has been previously not being able or willing to pick a variety of midfielders and it goes way back. Steinburg and not considering Parker. Taking guys like Houlihan or Morgan. McGrath over Toranto or McCluggage. These are why we are in the hole we are in but they are also issue from before the end of 2020.

 

[Yoda_]

I am not disagreeing in total. It has been a list management failure. The thing is it is not a new thing and the club has actually looked at it and the process so we are two drafts in but still feeling the pain from years of almost having a good draft to having an average draft.
2020 draft we took 5 young blokes. We traded for Caldwell who is 21 so still young.
2021 we took 3 young blokes and McDonagh. Picked up Kelly via FA for not a lot of cap space.
We have also taken Durham , Waterman , Martin and Wanganeen outside of the main so it has been 90% young in the period since Mahony has been on board and Truck has been coach.

Sure you have pointed out the average mature players but they where from a period before we reviewed what we where doing after the 2020 season.
Just on the drafting kids rather than say Geulfi it is not that black and white. He was the third last pick in the ND. He was 20 when he was drafted and looking through the rookie draft there would only be Banfield , Holman and Mihocheck who have gone on and are still playing and all three where 20 plus so they where not young either. I am a little bemused we never really looked at Mihochek given he was the son of a former player and always had decent VFL form.

The Smith pick is what it is. He looks done and we have to carry him next year but even cooked he gave more yesterday than the young forwards could have. He is basically filling a gap. His contract is not even close to the biggest list issues we have and they will never get all the contracts right. Dumb move to give 2 years. Yes. But it does not really set us back a long way.

The thing that has set us back the most has been previously not being able or willing to pick a variety of midfielders and it goes way back. Steinburg and not considering Parker. Taking guys like Houlihan or Morgan. McGrath over Toranto or McCluggage. These are why we are in the hole we are in but they are also issue from before the end of 2020.

We still picked McDonagh. You can paint it any way you like but it still happened. You don't pick a 25 year old in hope that he develops into an AFL player in 12 - 18 months time.


On the mature guys, I understand Guelfi is a poor example, at 20 he should have scope to improve. Remove him and the picture becomes clearer.

 

[ant555]

I woke up cranky.
Someone also commented that we should give the social media team a break, which I think I agree with. These guys see glowing endorsements of themselves from the EFC propaganda department all the time and believe they are Hollywood stars or something. Maybe the way the social media team does things needs to change because the players are all over it and having a laff. We've just lost. Have the social media team create content that exposes the negative stuff publicly, rather than watching it once at the review and then going through the rinse/repeat.

It is still the result of a drafting period from before the end of 2020. People need to get their head around the fact we are not a good team. We have a bunch of ball chasing midfielders who are not great stoppage players. Our back end form last year was more based on what Stringer could provide us as something different so without him or another big guy like him we have too much of the same. His numbers where as good as anyone's in various stages.

We are suffering from a very poor period of list management but no one seems to want to see there was a very clear line drawn at the end of the 2020 season. There was. Football manager sacked. New footy manager restructures the list management process. Adrian having to go through a more rigorous process to mange the list. Recruiting staff armed with better software tools to use within what they are doing. A coach that is more demanding on the players he wants and the development coaching also looking at the players short listed and asking questions on the development side.

All of this does nothing for the now as despite turning over 21 players in the two draft / trade / FA periods you are never going to turn the list over and have a massive change in one season and 5 games.

As for the social media team I do not listen to any of it. All clubs are the same. It is always a bit fluffy and nice and never has negative comment. It is not where you want to find the real world stuff. I will say that Truck is pretty straight up in his after the game media stuff. Nailed the fact we could not win contested footy in the second half after playing some decent footy in the first half but wasting a few opportunities forward. Also chipped the defenders for giving away a few dumb free kicks. He may not do angry but he does give some little measured drive buy's.

We are shit because you can not spend 10 or more years having continual draft fails. Melbourne where shit until they fixed their recruiting process and even that took 5 to 6 drafts and a lot of list changes along the way. One other issue we have is the fact that Adrian has been almost good. Despite our blunders we have drafted enough decent players that has always kept us within reach of the 8. We have never really fallen way of the perch (other than 16 for other reasons) and had seasons where we have had a few years of picking in the top 5. All our top 10 stuff has pretty much been saga related via picks for players leaving or a couple of low ladder spots. The rest has been picking after the top cream has gone.

 

[Yoda_]

It is still the result of a drafting period from before the end of 2020. People need to get their head around the fact we are not a good team. We have a bunch of ball chasing midfielders who are not great stoppage players. Our back end form last year was more based on what Stringer could provide us as something different so without him or another big guy like him we have too much of the same. His numbers where as good as anyone's in various stages.

We are suffering from a very poor period of list management but no one seems to want to see there was a very clear line drawn at the end of the 2020 season. There was. Football manager sacked. New footy manager restructures the list management process. Adrian having to go through a more rigorous process to mange the list. Recruiting staff armed with better software tools to use within what they are doing. A coach that is more demanding on the players he wants and the development coaching also looking at the players short listed and asking questions on the development side.

All of this does nothing for the now as despite turning over 21 players in the two draft / trade / FA periods you are never going to turn the list over and have a massive change in one season and 5 games.

As for the social media team I do not listen to any of it. All clubs are the same. It is always a bit fluffy and nice and never has negative comment. It is not where you want to find the real world stuff. I will say that Truck is pretty straight up in his after the game media stuff. Nailed the fact we could not win contested footy in the second half after playing some decent footy in the first half but wasting a few opportunities forward. Also chipped the defenders for giving away a few dumb free kicks. He may not do angry but he does give some little measured drive buy's.

We are shit because you can not spend 10 or more years having continual draft fails. Melbourne where shit until they fixed their recruiting process and even that took 5 to 6 drafts and a lot of list changes along the way. One other issue we have is the fact that Adrian has been almost good. Despite our blunders we have drafted enough decent players that has always kept us within reach of the 8. We have never really fallen way of the perch (other than 16 for other reasons) and had seasons where we have had a few years of picking in the top 5. All our top 10 stuff has pretty much been saga related via picks for players leaving or a couple of low ladder spots. The rest has been picking after the top cream has gone.

When Dodoro goes, it'll be easier to accept that there has been a clear change as you've mentioned number of times now.

The fact he is still at the club is staggering

 

[ant555]

We still picked McDonagh. You can paint it any way you like but it still happened. You don't pick a 25 year old in hope that he develops into an AFL player in 12 - 18 months time.


On the mature guys, I understand Guelfi is a poor example, at 20 he should have scope to improve. Remove him and the picture becomes clearer.

Seriously ?
What no club ever takes a risk at pick 50 ? What is the difference between taking him and hoping he can be a decent player from 2023 for 4 years or hoping you find a kid ? there where only 15 players taken after him. Only two have played. One was Constable who was a mature age pick and you do not want mature age. The other is a Freo academy pick.
Its is a total over reaction. We picked a player who we hope can be a defender for us. Yes he is 25. Yes he will need a season of VFL. Why is it a 25 year old with his background a bad pick if he takes a year in the VFL ? why is it any worse than Lord who will take 2 years in the VFL minimum ? History says you never get a draft 100% correct. In fact it says if you get 60 to 70 percent of your picks right over a period of time you will be in the top 4 window.
Have to say McDonagh has had some issues so far but he has not been a total dud. he does actually find the footy and he has shown he can actually defend. He is a far more advanced selection than a Houlihan or Morgan type and the reason he is that is not just the fact he is 25 but the fact we wanted to take a defender who had the scope to defend and had decent skills.

 

[ghostdog]

It is still the result of a drafting period from before the end of 2020. People need to get their head around the fact we are not a good team. We have a bunch of ball chasing midfielders who are not great stoppage players. Our back end form last year was more based on what Stringer could provide us as something different so without him or another big guy like him we have too much of the same. His numbers where as good as anyone's in various stages.

We are suffering from a very poor period of list management but no one seems to want to see there was a very clear line drawn at the end of the 2020 season. There was. Football manager sacked. New footy manager restructures the list management process. Adrian having to go through a more rigorous process to mange the list. Recruiting staff armed with better software tools to use within what they are doing. A coach that is more demanding on the players he wants and the development coaching also looking at the players short listed and asking questions on the development side.

All of this does nothing for the now as despite turning over 21 players in the two draft / trade / FA periods you are never going to turn the list over and have a massive change in one season and 5 games.

As for the social media team I do not listen to any of it. All clubs are the same. It is always a bit fluffy and nice and never has negative comment. It is not where you want to find the real world stuff. I will say that Truck is pretty straight up in his after the game media stuff. Nailed the fact we could not win contested footy in the second half after playing some decent footy in the first half but wasting a few opportunities forward. Also chipped the defenders for giving away a few dumb free kicks. He may not do angry but he does give some little measured drive buy's.

We are shit because you can not spend 10 or more years having continual draft fails. Melbourne where shit until they fixed their recruiting process and even that took 5 to 6 drafts and a lot of list changes along the way. One other issue we have is the fact that Adrian has been almost good. Despite our blunders we have drafted enough decent players that has always kept us within reach of the 8. We have never really fallen way of the perch (other than 16 for other reasons) and had seasons where we have had a few years of picking in the top 5. All our top 10 stuff has pretty much been saga related via picks for players leaving or a couple of low ladder spots. The rest has been picking after the top cream has gone.

It took me a while, but I am over Dodoro. I'm glad there are measures in place now to ensure he is no longer the arbiter of our list build, so I guess time will tell in terms of whether the list improves. I'm a bit bemused that he was kept on at all.

My gripe is with effort, ant, and our lack of it in the second half yesterday was laid bare completely. With respect, the bolded part of your post is not the concern I have. It is with how much of it the players listen to. That's not to say it is a major cause of our performance, just to speculate about where their heads are at and why, because they haven't been turning up ready to compete.

 

[ant555]

When Dodoro goes, it'll be easier to accept that there has been a clear change as you've mentioned number of times now.

The fact he is still at the club is staggering

It is staggering he is till there. Would be better if he was gone but you have to separate the two eras. Even if they take 5 - 7 years to turn things around there was a clear line drawn and no amount of disappointment at what we have done for 15 years previously changes that.

 

[Yoda_]

Seriously ?
What no club ever takes a risk at pick 50 ? What is the difference between taking him and hoping he can be a decent player from 2023 for 4 years or hoping you find a kid ? there where only 15 players taken after him. Only two have played. One was Constable who was a mature age pick and you do not want mature age. The other is a Freo academy pick.
Its is a total over reaction. We picked a player who we hope can be a defender for us. Yes he is 25. Yes he will need a season of VFL. Why is it a 25 year old with his background a bad pick if he takes a year in the VFL ? why is it any worse than Lord who will take 2 years in the VFL minimum ? History says you never get a draft 100% correct. In fact it says if you get 60 to 70 percent of your picks right over a period of time you will be in the top 4 window.
Have to say McDonagh has had some issues so far but he has not been a total dud. he does actually find the footy and he has shown he can actually defend. He is a far more advanced selection than a Houlihan or Morgan type and the reason he is that is not just the fact he is 25 but the fact we wanted to take a defender who had the scope to defend and had decent skills.

I want us to be a tougher football club, even in regards to list management decisions. McDonagh is 25. No one can deny this and the fact he may take a year to get up to speed is a year we should could have put into a kid with much more upside. As I mentioned, we haven't really hit the jackpot with any of our mature age picks. Not like a Michael Barlow, Kane Lambert. Hobbs was gold but he left. Tippa I guess but throwing enough darts and you'll hit a bullseye eventually.

 

[Yoda_]

It is staggering he is till there. Would be better if he was gone but you have to separate the two eras. Even if they take 5 - 7 years to turn things around there was a clear line drawn and no amount of disappointment at what we have done for 15 years previously changes that.

Again, its just that connection between the old and the knew. Adrian Dodoro. Once it's broken, I'd be more confident in the new process.

 

[ant555]

It took me a while, but I am over Dodoro. I'm glad there are measures in place now to ensure he is no longer the arbiter of our list build, so I guess time will tell in terms of whether the list improves. I'm a bit bemused that he was kept on at all.

My gripe is with effort, ant, and our lack of it in the second half yesterday was laid bare completely. With respect, the bolded part of your post is not the concern I have. It is with how much of it the players listen to. That's not to say it is a major cause of our performance, just to speculate about where their heads are at and why, because they haven't been turning up ready to compete.

How many bad / poor sides have poor effort in games ? You do not want to see it. It sucks but it is a part of poor teams. There is no other way to paint it. We are not a good side. We are an even worse side without Snelling , Stringer , Langford , Merrett and Jones. Our midfield is one dimensional and we do not have a beast who can turn the stoppage around. Sides get a run on. Problem is to be at our best we do not want Caldwell, Parish , McGrath and Sheil as the center team . To get the mix right we need two midfield groups with Parish , Merrett and brute along with Sheil , Caldwell and brute. Hobbs will work into that mix as well.
Bad sides play bad footy. Bad lists lack leadership depth and player depth. They play inconsistent poor footy at times. It sucks big time but it is not rocket science. Have a look at all the recent contenders. Other than Geelong all had some pretty ugly periods.
The problem is we all got seduced by the bit of a bounce we got last year.

 

[Foxx]

Because we have developed a losing culture.

Failure breeds failure, it seeps into the ears and walls.
It works the same as onfield momentum, but on a bigger scale.

Also we left a building that had success in its sanctum, to a new place that has none. That stuff matters.

 

[ant555]

I want us to be a tougher football club, even in regards to list management decisions. McDonagh is 25. No one can deny this and the fact he may take a year to get up to speed is a year we should could have put into a kid with much more upside. As I mentioned, we haven't really hit the jackpot with any of our mature age picks. Not like a Michael Barlow, Kane Lambert. Hobbs was gold but he left. Tippa I guess but throwing enough darts and you'll hit a bullseye eventually.

Name the kid with more upside then ! do it. At the moment all you are giving is premature Monday expert stuff. Lots of complaints and very little in depth analysis . Certainly no solutions. If you are going to argue against a selection give the alternative not just some should have drafted a kid.
The age is totally irrelevant. Why is his age important ? What it may suck if we only get 5 years from him and 8 years from a kid ? You could just as easily waste two years on trying to develop a kid. McDonaugh is already doing more than Lord an no I am not against Lord. We are 5 games in and you are already saying we ****ed up. Who was the next defender in line to pick ? or did you just want us to do an Dodoro special and draft a half forward and say the can play back pocket ?

 

[boncer34]

Because we have developed a losing culture.

Failure breeds failure, it seeps into the ears and walls.
It works the same as onfield momentum, but on a bigger scale.

Also we left a building that had success in its sanctum, to a new place that has none. That stuff matters.

Think you'll find we're not the only club to leave our heartland. And some of those clubs have won flags whilst others who have stayed are equally shit.

 

[ant555]

Because we have developed a losing culture.

Failure breeds failure, it seeps into the ears and walls.
It works the same as onfield momentum, but on a bigger scale.

Also we left a building that had success in its sanctum, to a new place that has none. That stuff matters.

It is a good point. That exact reason is why truck takes the side to Windy Hill to train and why it was him to drive the process of having former glory on the walls at Tullamarine rather than it just be some flash new place with no soul. I do not know if or how long the fix will take but there was a clear line drawn when Truck took over. Time will tell.

 

[ghostdog]

How many bad / poor sides have poor effort in games ? You do not want to see it. It sucks but it is a part of poor teams. There is no other way to paint it. We are not a good side. We are an even worse side without Snelling , Stringer , Langford , Merrett and Jones. Our midfield is one dimensional and we do not have a beast who can turn the stoppage around. Sides get a run on. Problem is to be at our best we do not want Caldwell, Parish , McGrath and Sheil as the center team . To get the mix right we need two midfield groups with Parish , Merrett and brute along with Sheil , Caldwell and brute. Hobbs will work into that mix as well.
Bad sides play bad footy. Bad lists lack leadership depth and player depth. They play inconsistent poor footy at times. It sucks big time but it is not rocket science. Have a look at all the recent contenders. Other than Geelong all had some pretty ugly periods.
The problem is we all got seduced by the bit of a bounce we got last year.

Looking forward to the club filling the 'brute' roll for 2023, then. The plebs have been calling for it since 2018.

 

[ant555]

The lesson is not to read Mick Malthouse and actually listen when people ask what are we doing without the football.

 

[Yoda_]

Name the kid with more upside then ! do it. At the moment all you are giving is premature Monday expert stuff. Lots of complaints and very little in depth analysis . Certainly no solutions. If you are going to argue against a selection give the alternative not just some should have drafted a kid.
The age is totally irrelevant. Why is his age important ? What it may suck if we only get 5 years from him and 8 years from a kid ? You could just as easily waste two years on trying to develop a kid. McDonaugh is already doing more than Lord an no I am not against Lord. We are 5 games in and you are already saying we f’ed up. Who was the next defender in line to pick ? or did you just want us to do an Dodoro special and draft a half forward and say the can play back pocket ?

We always play it safe and the McDonagh selection is another example. Why not take the risk on a kid who could fill a position of need (maybe, hm, inside mid?!).

From last years draft who were overlooked I liked the look of; Joel Trudgeon (inside mid), Josh Browne (midfielder), Josh Cripps (ruck/fwd), Kade Ditmar (midfielder) that would have helped the list.

 

[ant555]

Looking forward to the club filling the 'brute' roll for 2023, then. The plebs have been calling for it since 2018.

Hobbs will be a Zorko / Neale type of Brute. He is a different style of player to what we have despite being 180cm.
I have been calling for the bigger midfielder since 2015. One reason I went of parish a little pre draft was he was small. Of course if we went my way we would have picked Francis and Curnow and the Curnow selection was based on he could develop into a forward / midfield as he had a decent tank but that is a story for somewhere else.
They picked Perkins as a stronger type with midfield scope. They picked Voss but I think he is more a forward who may be able to do what Stringer does.
This draft will be interesting. Make no mistake all I have said is the process have been modified. I am prepared to wait and see but if they fall down the same path then I will be questioning what they are doing.