Why Carlton have been promising so much yet delivering so little for so long.

[geelong_crazy26]

Well we had multiple flag winning coaches in Denis Pagan and Mick Malthouse as well, and neither of those appointments worked out.

Both well over the hill and past their time that’s why.

I think you have a good list with a couple of holes to fill.. but you have an average coach in Voss.

Collingwood appointed McRae and blues appointed Voss… who do you think has the better game plan?

Whoever has been making the coaching calls has just mucked it up too often

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

Both well over the hill and past their time that’s why.

I think you have a good list with a couple of holes to fill.. but you have an average coach in Voss.

Collingwood appointed McRae and blues appointed Voss… who do you think has the better game plan?

Whoever has been making the coaching calls has just mucked it up too often

McRae took over a club though, that has a core of players that almost pinched a flag in 2018.

If we don't make the finals this year, then there probably will be changes to Vossys backroom team.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

McRae took over a club though, that has a core of players that almost pinched a flag in 2018.

If we don't make the finals this year, then there probably will be changes to Vossys backroom team.

That is true, collingwood had a very good senior group of players and still do. They are not a young team like some try to preach.

Do you actually rate Voss?? I feel he won’t work out.. it feels more like a decision that was based off fear of the unknown again due to several failures as opposed to simply who was best… hence going a senior coach.

We are yet to see a senior coach who failed his first try actually do better his second try… the ratten experiment failed… maybe Voss will be different

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

That is true, collingwood had a very good senior group of players and still do. They are not a young team like some try to preach.

Do you actually rate Voss?? I feel he won’t work out.. it feels more like a decision that was based off fear of the unknown again due to several failures as opposed to simply who was best… hence going a senior coach.

We are yet to see a senior coach who failed his first try actually do better his second try… the ratten experiment failed… maybe Voss will be different

We needed someone who could instil defensive systems and implement high effort standards into the team. I'd argue Voss did both in his first year but players tired and injuries got the best of us by the end of the year. Obviously, he's no Clarkson in terms of coaching IQ but he doesn't have to be. Goodwin at the Dees is an absolute peanut and struggled to get the best out of his team early but he's now got a good group of assistants around him and he's able to communicate well with the players and look at the Dees now. Only a few years ago fans were begging for him to be sacked and thought he was no good. Was that because he couldn't coach?

Having a look at others... Bevo is loathed by supporters for consistently playing guys out of position and shuffling them around non-stop causing a few players to depart. Coke can Ken is just about the most hated bloke in SA and has been for 5 or 6 years now. Chris Scott was scorned for years as having an out-of-date gameplan because he could never get past Richmond. Longmuire has his players playing at the speed of a snail yet last year had them humming.

Other than Clarko, Longmuir and now Macrae almost all of them have had more than a few doubters over their time. Eventually they got things right and it clicked for their players. Sometimes for 1 year, sometimes for an extended period of sustained success. Same happens for players who out of the blue go from lazy plodders to absolute guns over the course of a couple of seasons. It's not that they can't play, they just need to make some changes and tweaks to their game or preparation.

 

[bourbons]

That is true, collingwood had a very good senior group of players and still do. They are not a young team like some try to preach.

Do you actually rate Voss?? I feel he won’t work out.. it feels more like a decision that was based off fear of the unknown again due to several failures as opposed to simply who was best… hence going a senior coach.

We are yet to see a senior coach who failed his first try actually do better his second try… the ratten experiment failed… maybe Voss will be different

I feel like if it was a decision based off fear they would have just abandoned any process and gone with Lyon, as Ross the Boss seemed to want.

Voss seems like the more courageous decision by comparison and a break with our messiah complex of the past, or simply who the process actually did identify as the best option.

 

[Arr0w]

That is true, collingwood had a very good senior group of players and still do. They are not a young team like some try to preach.

Do you actually rate Voss?? I feel he won’t work out.. it feels more like a decision that was based off fear of the unknown again due to several failures as opposed to simply who was best… hence going a senior coach.

We are yet to see a senior coach who failed his first try actually do better his second try… the ratten experiment failed… maybe Voss will be different

Let's see, all of these coaches had improved output in their 2nd stints

Malthouse, Walls, Parkin, Jeans, Blight

And, when are people going to realise it's more about the list, rather than the coach

Clarko with a talented Hawks group, Clarko with an average Hawks group

 

[Lars27]

Yeah we been s**t but please dont compare is to essendope. what is it 7000 days now without a single finals win?

a lot of their list wouldnt have been born at the list final.

Three of our players weren’t born when we last won a final

But we don’t want to be compared with the blues either. As poor as we have been, we have at least have played finals four times since the last time Carlton did. Cripps is 28 and has never played in a single final. Essendon can’t win a final, but Carlton can’t even make them.

 

[Ambrosia]

Think it’s more them coming from an extremely low base with their rebuild rather then doing anything specifically wrong.

Obviously should have made the 8 last year but is scraping in really that much different then just missing out?

North Melbourne will be similar. Plenty of people on here thought they’d turned the corner in the 2021 and would rise up the ladder in 2022.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Three of our players weren’t born when we last won a final

lol that's disgraceful

 

[Lars27]

lol that's disgraceful

I just feel sorry for Cripps never playing in a final at 28. He deserves a lot better

 

[Noidnadroj]

This exactly, using Melbourne as just one example.

I said during the off-season that Carlton couldn't expect to make inroads on the contenders from 2022 given their inactivity at the trade table. Suspect they were somewhat hamstrung and waiting for cap space to be freed up by McGovern, Martin and possibly TDK at the end of this year?

But Fremantle are possibly the only team from the top 8 whose list appears to have regressed from 2022.

Sydney didn't do a lot at the trade table, but they played in a Grand Final and will have significant growth from the likes of Gulden, Campbell, Warner, Blakey, Rowbottom, McDonald, etc.

Carlton just don't have that extent of growth in them given their top players are winning Brownlows and Coleman Medals yet still not making finals, and they don't have the depth of quality on their list to be banking on the same or more internal growth compared to clubs who were already ahead of them.

Then we add a team like Port who had been contending in previous years, had a terrible start to 2022 before finding their feet, and we saw how important the inclusion of Rioli and Horne-Francis will be to them in addition to the internal growth from the likes of Rozee, Butters and Georgiades.

Yep, with perhaps just 2 players out of their best side, Carlton’s team contained the following players I’d regard as B-grade or below… I’m including ‘kids’ who may of course get past B grade, but it’s the state of the team right now:

B grade or below (13 players)

O’Brien
Silvagni
Martin
Cowan
Fisher
Motlop
Owies
Hollands
Newman
E Curnow
Acres
TDK
McGovern

Pies… B-grade or below (9 players):

McInnes
Murphy
Cox
McStay
Hill
Cameron
Hoskin-Elliott
McCreery
Noble

Port (9):

Evans
Fantasia
McKenzie
Jones
Georgiades
Drew
Farrell
Duursma
Bergman

Richmond (8)

Ross
Mansell
Miller
Pickett
MRJ
McIntosh
Graham
Balta

So there’s just too much crud in Carlton’s best team and I can’t see enough elite quality coming through. And end of 2023 they have a choice ..
pay TDK the huge coin other teams will be offering, or trade him out. And if he’s traded out one of those potentially elite players is gone. If he’s kept there’s 100% no money left to work on further list build outside of the draft.

Carlton has a list profile and have been trading in a way that should have them competing for flags right now…. and in their last 5 games they haven’t won a game, and in Round 1 they were outplayed by a team of grandpa’s coming off the back off a dynasty. How do the Blues possibly beat the Demons, Swans, Lions or even Cats?


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[p4p1]

Maybe as a big Victorian club they have been massively overrated talent wise and the media, fans and a lot of others involved in the game want/hope to see Carlton back up top so may have a slight bias when evaluating them

 

[Freomaniac]

We needed someone who could instil defensive systems and implement high effort standards into the team. I'd argue Voss did both in his first year but players tired and injuries got the best of us by the end of the year. Obviously, he's no Clarkson in terms of coaching IQ but he doesn't have to be. Goodwin at the Dees is an absolute peanut and struggled to get the best out of his team early but he's now got a good group of assistants around him and he's able to communicate well with the players and look at the Dees now. Only a few years ago fans were begging for him to be sacked and thought he was no good. Was that because he couldn't coach?

Having a look at others... Bevo is loathed by supporters for consistently playing guys out of position and shuffling them around non-stop causing a few players to depart. Coke can Ken is just about the most hated bloke in SA and has been for 5 or 6 years now. Chris Scott was scorned for years as having an out-of-date gameplan because he could never get past Richmond. Longmuire has his players playing at the speed of a snail yet last year had them humming.

Other than Clarko, Longmuir and now Macrae almost all of them have had more than a few doubters over their time. Eventually they got things right and it clicked for their players. Sometimes for 1 year, sometimes for an extended period of sustained success. Same happens for players who out of the blue go from lazy plodders to absolute guns over the course of a couple of seasons. It's not that they can't play, they just need to make some changes and tweaks to their game or preparation.

Ross Lyon seemed like a good fit lol

 

[Arr0w]

Ross Lyon seemed like a good fit lol

Perhaps you should have kept Lyon

 

[52Goals4inGranny]

I will cop it from other Carlton supporters for this, but it's because we are soft mentally. They drafted a bunch of goody two shoes. They have no fire or spark whatsoever. Have a look at Collingwood, they have real mongrel and campaigner in them. It makes me sick! Until they prove me and most neutral observers wrong the doubts will linger.

It is honestly soul destroying reloading each year with the hope that this year will be different.

 

[Arr0w]

Perhaps use your own account

 

[RAPPA]

Both well over the hill and past their time that’s why.

I think you have a good list with a couple of holes to fill.. but you have an average coach in Voss.

Collingwood appointed McRae and blues appointed Voss… who do you think has the better game plan?

Whoever has been making the coaching calls has just mucked it up too often

Re McRae, he has set himself up with two former head coaches as assistants - Bolton and Leppitsch. Very intelligent appointments. For all the faults with Bolton, he was fantastic with the young players and building cohesion. Leppa was there during the Richmond dynasty and you can see remnants of that plan in Collingwood’s style.

The assistant coaching clean out for Carlton was long overdue. I did feel and continue to believe that there is room for a Director of Coaching gig at Carlton or just a senior mentor for Voss.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Yep, with perhaps just 2 players out of their best side, Carlton’s team contained the following players I’d regard as B-grade or below… I’m including ‘kids’ who may of course get past B grade, but it’s the state of the team right now:

B grade or below (13 players)

O’Brien
Silvagni
Martin
Cowan
Fisher
Motlop
Owies
Hollands
Newman
E Curnow
Acres
TDK
McGovern

Pies… B-grade or below (9 players):

McInnes
Murphy
Cox
McStay
Hill
Cameron
Hoskin-Elliott
McCreery
Noble

Port (9):

Evans
Fantasia
McKenzie
Jones
Georgiades
Drew
Farrell
Duursma
Bergman

Richmond (8)

Ross
Mansell
Miller
Pickett
MRJ
McIntosh
Graham
Balta

So there’s just too much crud in Carlton’s best team and I can’t see enough elite quality coming through. And end of 2023 they have a choice ..
pay TDK the huge coin other teams will be offering, or trade him out. And if he’s traded out one of those potentially elite players is gone. If he’s kept there’s 100% no money left to work on further list build outside of the draft.

Carlton has a list profile and have been trading in a way that should have them competing for flags right now…. and in their last 5 games they haven’t won a game, and in Round 1 they were outplayed by a team of grandpa’s coming off the back off a dynasty. How do the Blues possibly beat the Demons, Swans, Lions or even Cats?


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Lol.

Richmond 15 A graders. But couldn't put us away without Walsh or Williams.

We'll be fine Jordan.

 

[bourbons]

Righto at 6 round in think I've seen enough lol - more of the same, unfortunately.

Still no ability whatsoever to cover injuries to even 1 or 2 of our best players. Bottom 6-8 still not league standard. Still absolutely diabolical forward 50 entries, combination of bad kicking and seemingly no connection or understanding between mids and forwards as to where the ball should likely end up. You're not gonna hit 'em lace out on their own every time especially against a team like St Kilda, but lost count of the number of times yesterday a St Kilda defender took an uncontested mark with no Carlton forward within 10 meters. A contest has to be the absolute minimum.

Add to all that there are a heap of players not even close to what they were putting out last year - Hewett, Kennedy, McKay, Durdin, Motlop, DeKonig, Pitto, probably more I've forgotten. Cerra the only one who seems to have improved rather than gone backwards.

So yeah, very definition of business as usual. Will beat the teams they're supposed to beat (except for the obligatory coupla bed shitting games lol), lose to those they're supposed to lose to, finish 7th-10th.

 

[bzparkes]

Because as a club, they are remarkably arrogant and absolutely have no sense of self-awareness.

Their list isn't remotely as good as they think it is, yet they've topped up a number of positions with players who are not capable of being a part of a premiership side.

 

[largebus]

Same problem as the early 2010s when they had a few great players like Judd and Murphy carrying a bunch of dross with an average coach; Ratten obviously got more out of that team than Voss has. Naturally they were pumped up back then as one of the flag favourites as well yet never made it to a prelim.

 

[Fadge]

Same problem as the early 2010s when they had a few great players like Judd and Murphy carrying a bunch of dross with an average coach; Ratten obviously got more out of that team than Voss has. Naturally they were pumped up back then as one of the flag favourites as well yet never made it to a prelim.

Even though they played in and even won the odd final back in the Judd era, they were always miles off the pace of the top 4.

In their best year - 2011 - when they were 'a kick away from a Preliminary Final', they went 0 and 7 against the top 4 teams...

 

[doppleganger]

McRae took over a club though, that has a core of players that almost pinched a flag in 2018.

We have 10 players still going who played in the 2018 GF - Pendles, DeGoey, Adams, Sidey, Maynard, WHE, Howe, Mihocek, Crisp and M.Cox

Our best 5 players so far to date in 2023 according to Pies board voting have been Moore, N.Daicos, J.Daicos, DeGoey and T.Mitchell.

Carlton's last game of 2018 - Weitering, Marchbank, Cripps, C.Curnow, Mackay and TDK all played....the supposed top line elite spine from 2018 are still Carlton's stars in 2023.

Collingwood have evolved our list and rely on different players to what we did in 2018...dont think I can say the same about Carlton.

If we don't make the finals this year, then there probably will be changes to Vossys backroom team.

Probably time for another "66 game rebuild"...apart from the same stars that you have been relying on since 2018 - what else is lifting the Blues up the ladder?

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Their indigenous jumper was awful too. Looked like one of those ugly Christmas sweaters.

It's the first bad indigenous round jumper I've seen.

 

[Shooter#17]

Arrogant and delusional club full of even more arrogant and delusional fans.