Why do people think the Pies are so far ahead?

[cleomenes]

They are not that far ahead. There is not much from 2010 to guide guesses for 2011. Collingwood were not an obviously better paper side than most of the others. They were clearly the most intense most of the time. History shows that intensity does not often carry over well from year to year. The compromised draft will favour them, since the power clubs will be lucky to instantly plug any gaps they have identified with ready made players, but they are unlikely to have such an injury clear run two years in a row. Expect the magpies to be good but not dominant.

 

[jonbe54]

Injuries are always the elephant in the room though pies didn't have an injury free run this year as some might think seeing as our depth covered better than most could with youngsters stepping up and filling the breach. Most accept the full court press was a huge plus and they are quite correct though not so many identify the huge range of goalkickers which makes the traditional defensive flood of other sides much less effective.

 

[ROB48]

Opposition coaches will study the Collingwood game plan and find a way to counter it, there are very few "Game Plans" that stand the test of time. Football is evolving and the coach who comes up with the newest surprise will get the chocolates.

 

[mysainters]

So come on BF. How do you break down a relentless swarm?

Why would a team need to break down something, if they evolve past it?

2011 may surprise with a new trend, something even better than the Collingwood 2010 model.

 

[jonbe54]

Opposition coaches will study the Collingwood game plan and find a way to counter it, there are very few "Game Plans" that stand the test of time. Football is evolving and the coach who comes up with the newest surprise will get the chocolates.

How do you counter 11 or 12 or even 13 individual goalscorers that the pies had regularly during the course of the season? THAT is scoring potential depth and not just a tactical advantage. People rave on and on about the press or swarm and quite rightly so but in the end its scoring the goals that count and that breadth and depth of goalscoring capacity is damn hard to counter.

 

[mysainters]

How do you counter 11 or 12 or even 13 individual goalscorers that the pies had regularly during the course of the season? THAT is scoring potential depth and not just a tactical advantage. People rave on and on about the press or swarm and quite rightly so but in the end its scoring the goals that count and that breadth and depth of goalscoring capacity is damn hard to counter.

That is a good point.

Perhaps sides (I include St Kilda) will lessen their efforts to try and squash Collingwood and it's obvious talent, and allow the game to be more open and find scoring power of their own?

I predict more shootouts, end to end style.

 

[ROB48]

How do you counter 11 or 12 or even 13 individual goalscorers that the pies had regularly during the course of the season? THAT is scoring potential depth and not just a tactical advantage. People rave on and on about the press or swarm and quite rightly so but in the end its scoring the goals that count and that breadth and depth of goalscoring capacity is damn hard to counter.

How many games did Collingwood have 11 or 12 or 13 players score goals? Was enough pressure put on the Collingwood players by the opposition? Why didn't Collingwood put a young Melbourne side away in either of the two games they played?

Scoring depth is a bit of a furphy, all 6 forwards are capable of scoring, all midfielders are capable of scoring, and even the backs can run down and kick a goal, that applies to any side.

Perhaps Bailey already has a plan to counter Collingwood.

Oh and there is the old one, you know where a side just has more talent, that's a way to counter any game plan the opposition side has.

 

[wmvaux]

The simple fact is Premierships come from having either the best team in the comp or close to it.

For the first time in Malthouse's coaching career at Collingwood, they were actually the best team for the year and they won the Premiership.

At this stage they look like they will have another good team, possibly the best in 2011, but is up to other teams developing their players to a higher level, in which could make another team the best team.

Collingwood isn't far ahead, they are just in a good position to challange again. Their list is solid as they have all positions covered, they have good depth with players who can come in a do a job.

Injuries can have an impact on any team, even Collingwood, but it's all about which players are injured as some can be covered more than others.

In 2008 Hawthorn had the Clarkson cluster working perfectly and was the main reason they finished 2nd, they were lucky enough to play Geelong who they have had the wood on and were able to beat them and win the Premiership.

2009 St.Kilda were the best team, taking the cluster and pressure to another level and was the main reason they were so hard to score against, unfortunately for them they didn't take their opportunities against Geelong and lost the Grand Final.

2010 I believe Collingwood gained the knowledge from Hudghton and Ball to St.Kilda's secret and I believe they made significant gains from that set up, I could see from the first NAB cup game there was a big improvement. Collingwood also added to this by extra pressure from their forwards when the were playing a defensive role, thus creating more scoring opportunitites.

The reason why Collingwood were too good for Geelong is that Geelong played the same way all the time, there was never a B plan, Collingwood used that against Geelong and because Geelong like to run out of defence in numbers, Collingwood set up a player on the outside, thus making Geelong come back inside and often under pressure and the turnovers were there to score from. Geelong doesn't have the speed of Collingwood's younger legs too.

The reason Collingwood were too good for St.Kilda, one reason is that in a Grand Final there are no easy free's, in the past Riewoldt has been able to get free's from an arm over the shoulder or knock of the arm, Grand Final day and those aren't paided, great advantage for a young defender like Brown who has been beaten badly by Riewoldt before, I have no doubt that come the home and away games, Riewoldt will win a few frees, that he couldn't get in the Grand Final. The other reason Collingwood were too good is St.Kilda went in with injured players, Dal Santo who usually carvs up Collingwood wasn't anywhere near fit, Gram wasn't fit, and in the replay McEvoy just wasn't a match for Jolly.

Teams will look at Collingwood's set up and learn and get better, for Collingwood to stay ahead, they too need to get better.

Every year is a new year, but just because a team won the Premiership the year before, doesn't mean it will just happen again. Teams need to build up a number of wins and position themselves to get a double chance and hopefully a home final, from there it's about performing the best in September.

Collingwood have a great chance if they make it again from the experience they gained, 2 Grand Finals is as good experience as you'll get.

Pressure is the key to beating any top team, no team is unbeatable, if you can sustain it long enough, mistakes will happen and open the door up for opportunities.

Having said all this, other teams also have it harder to draft the quality players because of Gold Coast and GWS, so their improved list may take longer, which will benefit Collingwood because of their current list.

 

[loki04]

How many games did Collingwood have 11 or 12 or 13 players score goals? Was enough pressure put on the Collingwood players by the opposition? Why didn't Collingwood put a young Melbourne side away in either of the two games they played?

Scoring depth is a bit of a furphy, all 6 forwards are capable of scoring, all midfielders are capable of scoring, and even the backs can run down and kick a goal, that applies to any side.

Perhaps Bailey already has a plan to counter Collingwood.

Oh and there is the old one, you know where a side just has more talent, that's a way to counter any game plan the opposition side has.

Because Melbourne take the game on with fast movement through the middle, which under Malthouse Collingwood's gameplan tends to struggle against.

 

[Jonno_]

How many games did Collingwood have 11 or 12 or 13 players score goals? Was enough pressure put on the Collingwood players by the opposition? Why didn't Collingwood put a young Melbourne side away in either of the two games they played?

Scoring depth is a bit of a furphy, all 6 forwards are capable of scoring, all midfielders are capable of scoring, and even the backs can run down and kick a goal, that applies to any side.

Perhaps Bailey already has a plan to counter Collingwood.

Oh and there is the old one, you know where a side just has more talent, that's a way to counter any game plan the opposition side has.

I'm not saying that the game plan will stick around forever. That would be naive, and I would be disappointed, because half of the fun is watching competing games styles.

But is it possible that Melbourne supporters are reading too much into getting one draw againt Collingwood this season? I mean you came close both times, great effort, but you only got 2 points. It's like us chalking down a win against Hawthorn in round 22 because we could have won had Beams kicked the goal. It's also possible that you caught Collingwood on bad days etc. There seem to be a few Melbourne fans getting pretty giddy about earning 2 points this year against the Pies while only winning 8 games.

 

[mongrel_punt]

Pies just played two poor games against the Dees. Intensity was right down in both of them.

Wouldn't read too much into it to be honest.

 

[Pie eyed]

Scoring depth is a bit of a furphy, all 6 forwards are capable of scoring, all midfielders are capable of scoring, and even the backs can run down and kick a goal, that applies to any side.

True, but Collingwood actually had all these players scoring.
That is why having 12-13 scorers per game rated a mention.
When other sides players who "can" score do then I'm sure you'll have an argument.

Melbourne played well on both occasions we played them, so I don't take anything away from them. Unless they are in the 4 next year it will not really impact whether Collingwood win or lose against them H&A.

 

[ROB48]

I'm not saying that the game plan will stick around forever. That would be naive, and I would be disappointed, because half of the fun is watching competing games styles.

But is it possible that Melbourne supporters are reading too much into getting one draw againt Collingwood this season? I mean you came close both times, great effort, but you only got 2 points. It's like us chalking down a win against Hawthorn in round 22 because we could have won had Beams kicked the goal. It's also possible that you caught Collingwood on bad days etc. There seem to be a few Melbourne fans getting pretty giddy about earning 2 points this year against the Pies while only winning 8 games.

That's not the case at all, we were not expecting much this year and it turned out about how we thought it would, the fact we ran you so close once and drew another was a bonus. We have to follow that up this year and win more games and also replicate our good form against Collingwood otherwise we will have gone backwards.

I think you will find that most Melbourne supporters were aware that Collingwood were the benchmark this year and to get the results we got put us well ahead of where we thought we were.

All we have to do now is learn to beat the other sides in the competition especially those that seem to match up well against us like Hawthorn and North.

That's not a cue for all the North supporters to tell us how good their midfield is either.

 

[ROB48]

Pies just played two poor games against the Dees. Intensity was right down in both of them.

Wouldn't read too much into it to be honest.

If that makes you sleep better at night then you go ahead and believe that.

 

[malteaser]

That's not the case at all, we were not expecting much this year and it turned out about how we thought it would, the fact we ran you so close once and drew another was a bonus. We have to follow that up this year and win more games and also replicate our good form against Collingwood otherwise we will have gone backwards.

I think you will find that most Melbourne supporters were aware that Collingwood were the benchmark this year and to get the results we got put us well ahead of where we thought we were.

All we have to do now is learn to beat the other sides in the competition especially those that seem to match up well against us like Hawthorn and North.

That's not a cue for all the North supporters to tell us how good their midfield is either.

Lets also remember the collingwood game is the ONLY game melbourne get themselves up for even if their supporters go to falls creek on the queens birthday weekend.

 

[mongrel_punt]

If that makes you sleep better at night then you go ahead and believe that.

I sleep fine with the premiership cup sitting in the Pies cabinet. Just stating what I saw in those two games.

Not meant to be a slight on Melbourne, they were just two very poor games from a Collingwood perspective where our famed "frontal pressure" and forward zone were nearly non-existent.

 

[ROB48]

I sleep fine with the premiership cup sitting in the Pies cabinet. Just stating what I saw in those two games.

Not meant to be a slight on Melbourne, they were just two very poor games from a Collingwood perspective where our famed "frontal pressure" and forward zone were nearly non-existent.

Now I wonder why that is?

 

[ROB48]

Lets also remember the collingwood game is the ONLY game melbourne get themselves up for even if their supporters go to falls creek on the queens birthday weekend.

The old Falls Creek one, you really are some sort of mental genius aren't you?

Is that the best you can do?

 

[Paddywhackers]

He was asked to play heavier in 2009, I thought everyone knew that.
It had nothing to do with him thinking he was king.

Heavier maybe around the shoulders, and chest. Not heavier around the guts from too much drinking...

 

[Paddywhackers]

Pies are bound to drop. They have Leigh Brown as their 2nd ruckman and 3rd tall forward. I'm surprised he's still on an afl list. Dawes looks a bit on the slow side and I wonder if we'll still be talking about him in 2 years. Looks promising but he has deficiences. Cloke sprays the ball all over the place. In defence they have 2 good size talls in Brown and Reid. Their captain hasn't bigger teeth than he has arms

I am enjoying this thread and there's a lot of wishful thinking and a lot of lol's, but Dawes finished in two years...

There is a smelly odour of fear in this thread...

 

[Crow-mo]

Because Melbourne take the game on with fast movement through the middle, which under Malthouse Collingwood's gameplan tends to struggle against.

If only geelong thought to play that way.

oh wait...

 

[Kruzer]

IMO the reason why the Pies did so well this year is that they consistently executed their gameplan. Its all about consistency. They obviously believe in the systems they have put in place...the players have clearly stated roles and its a credit to their coaching staff to instill such a determined discipline in the playing group. Even when they get beaten they very rarely get thumped...they give their all and therefore are always in with a chance....

 

[wmvaux]

I'm not saying that the game plan will stick around forever. That would be naive, and I would be disappointed, because half of the fun is watching competing games styles.

But is it possible that Melbourne supporters are reading too much into getting one draw againt Collingwood this season? I mean you came close both times, great effort, but you only got 2 points. It's like us chalking down a win against Hawthorn in round 22 because we could have won had Beams kicked the goal. It's also possible that you caught Collingwood on bad days etc. There seem to be a few Melbourne fans getting pretty giddy about earning 2 points this year against the Pies while only winning 8 games.

The fact is with the draw, Melbourne were lucky it wasn't a 10 goal loss, because that's what it was apart from on the scoreboard.

Collingwood dominated the first and third quarters, they just missed many easy shots.

Melbourne are an improving team, but for years they have relied on their senior players being their backbone.... nothing has changed yet, 2011 will see Green, Davey, Jamar & Moloney needing to fire for Melbourne to fire, more is needed from the 20-23yo players

 

[TownleyTime]

The return game against Mel was pretty much only close due to Collingwood's kicking. Kicked 4.8 in the 1st, were totally dominant. Melbourne could barely get it past their HB line.

 

[jonbe54]

The return game against Mel was pretty much only close due to Collingwood's kicking. Kicked 4.8 in the 1st, were totally dominant. Melbourne could barely get it past their HB line.

Poor kicking is poor footy fortunately we cleared that up for the finals (except GF1)