Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Ghost Patrol]

And it's saying that the increased threat is from foreign countries rather than domestic Muslim immigrants.

Wasn’t ASIO saying recently the increasing threat is from Right Wing extremists?

Bunch of numberz guy is probably on a watch list.

 

[CM86]

Sorry a couple of books. Do you think terrorist attacks are a reasonable response for burning a book or drawing a cartoon?

The information is there. Please stop lying about the situation.

I condemn the actions of extremists in Sweden in 2022, regardless of it being a reaction to the actions of Danish-Swedish far-right extremist Rasmus Paludan.

So I condemn the riots in Sweden in 2022.
I also condemn the riots in the UK in 2024.

Why is it that the 'anti-immigration' only condemn the riots in Sweden 2022. But support the riots in the UK in 2024?
Sweden 2022 = bad and something needs to be done.
UK 2024 = Justified and reasonable.
To me, it says that they don't care about the victims, violence, actions or intent... They only care about the perpetrators.

Why is it that the 'anti-immigration' only condemn the riots in Sweden 2022. But support the riots in the UK in 2024?​

Sweden 2022 = bad and something needs to be done.​

UK 2024 = Justified and reasonable.​

To me, it says that they don't care about the victims, violence, actions or intent... They only care about the perpetrators.​

 

[sr36]

Wasn’t ASIO saying recently the increasing threat is from Right Wing extremists?

Bunch of numberz guy is probably on a watch list.

For decades, the threat has been from conservative extremists - whether standing beside a national flag, a cross or a crescent moon.

The FBi has said that America's biggest terrorist threats are from Nationalist and Christian groups rather than Islamic groups. I don't know about Australia.

 

[10571z]

The information is there. Please stop lying about the situation.

Why is it that the 'anti-immigration' only condemn the riots in Sweden 2022. But support the riots in the UK in 2024?​

Sweden 2022 = bad and something needs to be done.​

UK 2024 = Justified and reasonable.​

To me, it says that they don't care about the victims, violence, actions or intent... They only care about the perpetrators.​

Why do you continue to quote this?

And which part of the situation am lying about?

 

[CM86]

Why do you continue to quote this?

And which part of the situation am lying about?

This is the Australia you want?
Neo-Nazis attacking innocent hikers, smashing windows and looting?
That's what you want more of?

Hikers ‘terrified’ by neo-Nazis who allegedly smashed car windows as they fled, Melbourne court hears - Prosecutors say DNA and fingerprints matching neo-Nazi Thomas Sewell were found on the car

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Considering you want immigration to be a part of addressing these concerns you have about Australia, I assume you're in favour of a large influx of targeted immigration from the Australian cultural groups that surpass white Australia in these matters?

Absolutely.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Yes.
But what are we doing to address these issues? Why are we only focusing on immigration?

These issues are already here, and already active. So how can we blame or fear immigration based on what we already currently deal with?

Surely fixing the systems will benefit Australia and also prevent these issues possibly growing 'due to immigration'.
If the systems in place, work, then it's no longer a problem with immigration.



Can you expand on this a bit?
I know it would be deemed racist etc etc. But do you think its some kind of genetic predisposition to being completely unable to assimilate?
What do you think it is that would mean that a people from one place "CANNOT" 'assimilate' to another place?

The answer to why there are issues with assimilation are threefold in my opinion.

The first, and greatest is Islam itself. Islam, at least those actively practicing and following its teachings, is an absolutist religion where the teachings of Islam out prioritise anything else. Followers are actively preached to ignore the laws of the land if they conflict with Islam. Further, while you and many in here would decry Christianity, and I myself am an athiest (although appreciating more and more the fundamental morality of Christianity as I age), we are a Christian based society. While we have moved towards secularism and certainly have separation between Church and State (as we should), our values, our laws and our principles can be traced back to Christianity. Therefore followers of Islam will never align with our values (while they follow Islam).

The second, is volume, at a certainty point volume of persons from one culture become insular and resistant to assimilation. In Islam particularly that volume is very low, as little as 3% some say. We see this in the UK now, where the number of muslims in the UK is trending towards 6.7% and you begin to have Islam-focused political parties, local councils calling for Islamic law and other such breakaway functions.

The third is acceptance and multiculturalism. In Australia we promote anti-assimilation through multiculturalism, we entice individuals to come here and maintain their own values and customs - such that they do not assimilate.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Thanks for your answer Flowers.

My rebuttal.

Cultures do not have to align to have peaceful co existence, to have the peaceful co existence (social cohesion as you put it) all we need to do is live and let live. As a society, we already do this, and it's not coz 'straya is easy goin' it's coz liberal democracy.

This democracy is the reason we live in the best country in the world and we have freedom to do whatever the phuq we like to the point that what we do doesn't impede on anyone else. There's law and order in place to maintain this wonderfully peaceful co existence.

The bolded is key.

And is the reason why, we don't have a degraded society, yeah sure you could put forward examples where allowing differing cultures to exist leads to where it goes awry, but the awry is the exception and not the rule. If it were the rule then our society would look dystopian, like your description, but it doesn't look that way.

So no, cultures do not have to align to achieve a harmonious liberal democracy. All the separate cultures have to do is not impede on anyone else.

I would point to the UK, the UK is a declining hell hole. Europe itself is in decline. Knife crime skyrocketing. Pick pockets everywhere. Muslim 'grooming gangs'. You cannot live and let live, or the parts of society that are abusive, exploitive and violent will prevail. I am not arguing for all separate cultures to be excluded, I am only arguing for those that impede others. And in my opinion, those who actively follow Islam and individuals from third world countries do impede others, and while it is not all, it is a large enough percentage that we should reduce and focus our immigration so as only to bring the best, those that are more likely to assimilate, those that have a part to play in society (and therefore the social risk to them, should they not comply with adequate society - i.e fear of repercussion).

 

[FlowersByIrene]

a. Who defines that culture?
b. What happens if a government passes laws to kick out people who are already here, based on these arbitrary culture parameters?

Culture is undefinable to us, we cannot sit here and type it out. It's like describing every drop of rain. But you can tell when it is raining, and what type of rain it is. The same way that you can tell the difference in Culture between Australia and Iran.

And as for b. the answer is clearly no. As i've said before you cannot arbitrarily kick out citizens (even if that would improve Australia), but you can be more bespoke in who you let into the country - we have no obligations as a State to the citizens of the world. We have obligations to Australians.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

For decades, the threat has been from conservative extremists - whether standing beside a national flag, a cross or a crescent moon.

The FBi has said that America's biggest terrorist threats are from Nationalist and Christian groups rather than Islamic groups. I don't know about Australia.

That is because those organisations are insane, surely you see that.

 

[sr36]

The answer to why there are issues with assimilation are threefold in my opinion.

The first, and greatest is Islam itself. Islam, at least those actively practicing and following its teachings, is an absolutist religion where the teachings of Islam out prioritise anything else. Followers are actively preached to ignore the laws of the land if they conflict with Islam. Further, while you and many in here would decry Christianity, and I myself am an athiest (although appreciating more and more the fundamental morality of Christianity as I age), we are a Christian based society. While we have moved towards secularism and certainly have separation between Church and State (as we should), our values, our laws and our principles can be traced back to Christianity. Therefore followers of Islam will never align with our values (while they follow Islam).

The second, is volume, at a certainty point volume of persons from one culture become insular and resistant to assimilation. In Islam particularly that volume is very low, as little as 3% some say. We see this in the UK now, where the number of muslims in the UK is trending towards 6.7% and you begin to have Islam-focused political parties, local councils calling for Islamic law and other such breakaway functions.

The third is acceptance and multiculturalism. In Australia we promote anti-assimilation through multiculturalism, we entice individuals to come here and maintain their own values and customs - such that they do not assimilate.

1. Values vary very little between secular Islamic countries and secular Christian countries.
2. You're wrong to view Muslims as belonging to one culture. It's like viewing Poland, Ireland, The Phillipines and Colombia as one culture due to Catholicism.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I would point to the UK, the UK is a declining hell hole. Europe itself is in decline.

I haven't been there, not sure you have. But I'd confidently argue the media has portrayed it this way, I'd confidently argue hyperbole.

Yes there have been cases of muslims doing wrong, but let's not pretend it's a threat to liberal democracy there.

You cannot live and let live,

Yes you can, look at our own society, works quite well.

those who actively follow Islam and individuals from third world countries do impede others, and while it is not all, it is a large enough percentage that we should reduce and focus our immigration so as only to bring the best,

A large enough percentage would suggest our way of life look a lot different to what it actually is.

those that are more likely to assimilate,

Assimilation or integration does not need to be forced for society to work, ours works quite well without forcing.

Not to mention, it's very illiberal to force assimilation.

If one doesn't want to integrate, that's fine, once one impedes on someone else that's where our laws stop that impediment.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

I haven't been there, not sure you have. But I'd confidently argue the media has portrayed it this way, I'd confidently argue hyperbole.

Yes there have been cases of muslims doing wrong, but let's not pretend it's a threat to liberal democracy there.

Yes you can, look at our own society, works quite well.

A large enough percentage would suggest our way of life look a lot different to what it actually is.

Assimilation or integration does not need to be forced for society to work, ours works quite well without forcing.

Not to mention, it's very illiberal to force assimilation.

If one doesn't want to integrate, that's fine, once one impedes on someone else that's where our laws stop that impediment.

But going back to the issue that raised all this, our law enforcement and our government bodies are too afraid of enforcing laws when our society is impeded in fear of being considered racist. That is why these grooming gangs persist in the UK. Because laws are not being enforced. It's why there is rampant crime in Democrat cities in the US because laws are not being enforced. Because our 'tolerant' bodies are tolerant of impediment on our value. They value their perception as a multicultural society greater than the safety and success of our society.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

But going back to the issue that raised all this, our law enforcement and our government bodies are too afraid of enforcing laws when our society is impeded in fear of being considered racist. That is why these grooming gangs persist in the UK. Because laws are not being enforced. It's why there is rampant crime in Democrat cities in the US because laws are not being enforced. Because our 'tolerant' bodies are tolerant of impediment on our value. They value their perception as a multicultural society greater than the safety and success of our society.

Do you realise that the billionaire feeding you this crap was mates with Epstein and Diddy?

 

[Carringbush2010]

This is the Australia you want?
Neo-Nazis attacking innocent hikers, smashing windows and looting?
That's what you want more of?

Hikers ‘terrified’ by neo-Nazis who allegedly smashed car windows as they fled, Melbourne court hears - Prosecutors say DNA and fingerprints matching neo-Nazi Thomas Sewell were found on the car

Whilst I disagree with 10571z view point on islamic immigration, I don't see how you can ask if this poster is wishing for nazism. I don't see the relevance, unless this poster has claimed as such

If this poster hasn't then you've just discredited your argument cm.

 

[JackOutback]

Imagine being an Aboriginal person reading this thread and being lectured to about what 'Australian values and culture' are and how arrivals to this country need to assimilate or gtfo.

 

[CM86]

Whilst I disagree with 10571z view point on islamic immigration, I don't see how you can ask if this poster is wishing for nazism. I don't see the relevance, unless this poster has claimed as such

If this poster hasn't then you've just discredited your argument cm.

Please read back through the thread before assailing me with such vicious accusations.

 

[10571z]

This is the Australia you want?
Neo-Nazis attacking innocent hikers, smashing windows and looting?
That's what you want more of?

Hikers ‘terrified’ by neo-Nazis who allegedly smashed car windows as they fled, Melbourne court hears - Prosecutors say DNA and fingerprints matching neo-Nazi Thomas Sewell were found on the car

And what does this have to do with anything I’m talking about?

 

[Carringbush2010]

And as for b. the answer is clearly no. As i've said before you cannot arbitrarily kick out citizens (even if that would improve Australia), but you can be more bespoke in who you let into the country - we have no obligations as a State to the citizens of the world. We have obligations to Australians.

You realize this sentiment is the antithesis to liberalism right?

 

[FlowersByIrene]

You realize this sentiment is the antithesis to liberalism right?

Only if you believe in globalism.

We are a liberal state, that doesn't mean we have to let in every rapist, murderer and thief that asks to join our state.

I see it as pretty simple - if you are an Australian citizen the state owes you rights to habitation. If you are not, it does not.

 

[sr36]

That is because those organisations are insane, surely you see that.

No I don't. Not in the case of politically or cuturally motivated attacks. Ultimately they're idealists who want to shape the world into their vision of the ideal and are willing to kill in an effort to do so.

At times the brutality has come from "progressives" in an effort to force change - at the moment, it tends to be conservatives who want to preserve, promote and further the cause of their vision of Islam, Hindu culture, Chinese culture, American culture, Australian culture, Christian culture, Jewish culture, etc... It's a growing global phenomenon that begins with the pushing of cultural superiority and inferiority and can snowball from there. There's some shit times ahead.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Please read back through the thread before assailing me with such vicious accusations.

Hyperbole, you're digging your own hole here mate.

But going back to the issue that raised all this, our law enforcement and our government bodies are too afraid of enforcing laws when our society is impeded in fear of being considered racist. That is why these grooming gangs persist in the UK. Because laws are not being enforced. It's why there is rampant crime in Democrat cities in the US because laws are not being enforced. Because our 'tolerant' bodies are tolerant of impediment on our value. They value their perception as a multicultural society greater than the safety and success of our society.

So in short, free wheeling liberalism is the problem and not immigration itself then.

This is what you're saying, the 'tolerance' and lack of 'deterrence' is the problem, not muslims that want to live in a liberal democracy.

If this is what you're saying I whole heartedly agree, we need more consequence and deterrence to maintain our free way of life.

We're getting to a point of anarchy through lack of law and order, immigration is not the problem, the 'let's not offend anyone and let's not hold anyone to account coz everyone has rights' mantra is the problem.

But let's not pretend we're at armeggedon point.

Like you're point about 6.7% of UK being muslim, like it's a huge number and it's a societal threat, hyperbole, it isn't a societal threat.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Only if you believe in globalism.

We are a liberal state, that doesn't mean we have to let in every rapist, murderer and thief that asks to join our state.

I see it as pretty simple - if you are an Australian citizen the state owes you rights to habitation. If you are not, it does not.

I do believe in globalism, without it, we'd likely be pre industrial age.

See post 3047.

 

[CM86]

Hyperbole, you're digging your own hole here mate.

It clearly had nothing to do with his post specifically.

I was doing what he has done previously.
I've asked him why he was linking articles in replies to posts that didn't seem to have any connection. He didn't respond.

I did the same thing as he did, and you caught me!

Well spotted.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

I do believe in globalism, without it, we'd like be pre industrial age.

See post 3047.

There is a difference between globalism in an economic sense and globalism from a cultural / societal sense.

I frankly can't believe how anyone could believe in it. There are billions of people in the Earth, the majority of whom live in some form of poverty. Unless you are willing to drastically lower your standard of living, how can you support globalism? It's a tough position to have obviously - no one wants anyone else to live in poverty, but we can't maintain our standard of living for every person on the planet.

Further, it is only the most down trodden in our society who can avoid the impacts of globalism. I don't argue these things for myself, I can move to any country I'd want, I can live in isolation. But there are those that cannot.