Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

Thread rules update:

From this point if you're going to make a connection between Islam and the crime rate, you need to demonstrate causation in your post. If you do not, I'm going to infract you for the inherent racism in the position you're taking.

 

[bzparkes]

Why do some South Eastern Asian countries ban foreign men from marrying under age girls and impose a max age limit of 50 years old on the would-be groom?

Got anything to do with the child exploitation and/or sex trafficking problem that is widespread in SE Asia?

Why are Bali/Phillipines/Thailand a popular Australian holiday destination?
Got anything to do with sex tours?
Got anything to do with the child exploitation and/or sex trafficking problem that is widespread in SE Asia?


Western values:

10 million child prostitutes worldwide.
1.8 million children each year are exploited as part of the illicit sex market, including up to 100,000 US children.
The average age a girl enters the sex trade in the US is 12-14 years old.
Over 21% of those trafficked for sex are children
Of 25 million victims of forced labor, 5 million are in forced sexual exploitation
51.6% of the criminal human trafficking cases in the US were sex trafficking cases involving children

Great, all of those things are shocking and should be ended.

What's your point?

 

[Chief]

Did you consider the entire post, or only the parts you disagree witrh?

Yes - if you're not saying your usual offensive, PHON-style anti-immigrant stuff what are you saying?

 

[Number37]

Great, all of those things are shocking and should be ended.

What's your point?

My point is: Western values includes child sexual exploitation as cool and normal.
Glass houses.
Stones.
Clean hands doctrine.

 

[bzparkes]

Yes - if you're not saying your usual offensive, PHON-style anti-immigrant stuff what are you saying?

I'm not anti-immigrant(my wife's one), I'm anti mass immigration of undocumented migrants.

Immigrants who are qualified and are happy to either accept and live by the values of the country they move to, or at least respect them while there, are entirely fine and welcome. This includes refugees who have been properly vetted and applied through the correct channels.

Most other countries manage it. It's only offensive when those with predominantly white populations consider it, however.

 

[bzparkes]

My point is: Western values includes child sexual exploitation as cool and normal.
Glass houses.
Stones.
Clean hands doctrine.

Ah no, they don't. You've just made shit up.

That's criminal behaviour, which is punished accordingly(unless you're on Epstein's list...).

Unlike child marriages and things such as 'honour killings' in the Muslim world.

 

[Number37]

I'm not anti-immigrant(my wife's one), I'm anti mass immigration of undocumented migrants.

Immigrants who are qualified and are happy to either accept and live by the values of the country they move to, or at least respect them while there, are entirely fine and welcome. This includes refugees who have been properly vetted and applied through the correct channels.

Most other countries manage it. It's only offensive when those with predominantly white populations consider it, however.

White people are the major cause of the refugee problem.
You think refugees choose to live in squalor, get ripped off by smugglers and wait decades for a perhaps maybe chance they get selected?
Every country that white people has bombed or supplied arms to has a refugee problem.
Stop bombing countries and people won't have to run for their lives.
It's pretty simple.

 

[Chief]

I'm anti mass immigration of undocumented migrants.

I assume everyone is.

What is mass immigration and where is it happening?

Immigrants who are qualified and are happy to either accept and live by the values of the country they move to, or at least respect them while there, are entirely fine and welcome. This includes refugees who have been properly vetted and applied through the correct channels.

I see. It's an anti-multiculturalism thing.

Standard PHON stuff.

 

[bzparkes]

White people are the major cause of the refugee problem.
You think refugees choose to live in squalor, get ripped off by smugglers and wait decades for a perhaps maybe chance they get selected?
Every country that white people has bombed or supplied arms to has a refugee problem.
Stop bombing countries and people won't have to run for their lives.
It's pretty simple.

Who's bombing Yemen?

Who's the dictator in charge of Syria?

Who's in charge of all the African countries where all these people are fleeing to Europe from?

 

[bzparkes]

I assume everyone is.

What is mass immigration and where is it happening?

Err, oblivious to Merkel throwing open the EU borders since 2017?

Turkey also has big issues with it also.

I see. It's an anti-multiculturalism thing.

Standard PHON stuff.

If you get a job at a company you're expected to embrace their work culture.

People who don't generally get moved on pretty quickly.

It has nothing to do with them losing their personal and cultural identity, which you seem to be completely misunderstanding.

Is that standard PHON stuff, whatever the **** that even means?

Is it 'irrational' to expect a guest in your house to abide by your rules?

 

[Chief]

Who's in charge of all the African countries where all these people are fleeing to Europe from?

Well it used to be European countries, in order to take all the resources. Kind of stunts your ability to evolve a proper democracy with rule of law and all that.

 

[bzparkes]

Well it used to be European countries, in order to take all the resources. Kind of stunts your ability to evolve a proper democracy with rule of law and all that.

Yes, it indeed used to be.

With all the trillions in aid money however, they've had plenty of opportunities to become said developed nations.

Centuries of tribal warfare clearly have made this a difficult prospect however.

 

[Number37]

Ah no, they don't. You've just made s**t up.

That's criminal behaviour, which is punished accordingly(unless you're on Epstein's list...).

Unlike child marriages and things such as 'honour killings' in the Muslim world.

Honour killings are cultural not religious.
Culture trumps religion always.

When Western men travel to SE Asia or South America to 'marry' underage girls they don't get punished.
When Western men travel to SE Asia or South America to engage in child sexual exploitation they don't get punished.
The US has a widespread child sexual exploitation problem. Yes, it is illegal but that doesn't change the fact that it is widespread and all too common.

Basic logic tells you that there wouldn't be a child sexual exploitation problem if there were not people wanting to sexually exploit children. The overwhelming majority of the child sexual exploiters are Westerners.

Your suggestion that child sexual exploitation is confined to a certain religion is a load of crap.

 

[Number37]

Who's bombing Yemen?

Who's the dictator in charge of Syria?

Who's in charge of all the African countries where all these people are fleeing to Europe from?

Wrong questions.
Who is supplying the bombs dropping on Yemen?
Why is Assad a dictator but Netanyahu gets $25bn in military aid for doing exactly the same thing?
The Dutch, French, Portugese, British all took their turns having their way with African nations, then up and leave when they've finished destroying the environment taking all the loot with them, leaving the locals to fight for scraps when they should be living like f'ing kings.

 

[Chief]

Err, oblivious to Merkel throwing open the EU borders since 2017?

Turkey also has big issues with it also.

I haven't really looked at Turkey. Haven't kept up with Germany. I believe they are having trouble with under-spending on services for new immigrants, though, and so immigrants are sometimes being taken advantage of by unscrupulous people or adding crime to their basket of income sources.

I posted an episode of the Rationally Speaking podcast covering a study and book about this predisposition people have towards safe and legal work unless it becomes impossible to live decently without some unsafe industrial or agricultural work, or crime.

If you get a job at a company you're expected to embrace their work culture.

People who don't generally get moved on pretty quickly.

Like, show up and do your work to the best of your ability according to the job description?

It has nothing to do with them losing their personal and cultural identity, which you seem to be completely misunderstanding.

Is that standard PHON stuff, whatever the * that even means?

Is it 'irrational' to expect a guest in your house to abide by your rules?

The "guest in your house" analogy doesn't stack up - they're not in my house unless they are actually in my house.

Do I make you abide by the rules I have for house guests, though you're never in my house?

The streets, your neighbourhood, your city, your country, it's not "your house". Things will happen that do not conform to your idea of proper behaviour, and you have no power to stop them. That's the way life is.

Nobody is seriously saying people who move to this country shouldn't abide by local laws. I believe that immigrants are a lot LESS likely to end up on the wrong side of the law than people born here.

But all in all these posts coupled with your others over the years just add up to some pretty staunch right-wing, intolerant, unaccepting attitudes that I don't think fit in with Australian values. What do we do about that?

 

[bzparkes]

Honour killings are cultural not religious.
Culture trumps religion always.

Religion and culture aren't exactly separate from each other.

When Western men travel to SE Asia or South America to 'marry' underage girls they don't get punished.
When Western men travel to SE Asia or South America to engage in child sexual exploitation they don't get punished.
The US has a widespread child sexual exploitation problem. Yes, it is illegal but that doesn't change the fact that it is widespread and all too common.

Basic logic tells you that their wouldn't be a child sexual exploitation problem if there were not people wanting to sexually exploit children. The overwhelming majority of the child sexual exploiters are Westerners.

Your suggestion that child sexual exploitation is confined to a certain religion is a load of crap.

Where did I ever suggest child exploitation was 'confined' to a 'certain' religion?

You're projecting.

 

[Number37]

Religion and culture aren't exactly separate from each other.

I thought you said you were edumercated.

The clue is in the name: 'honour killings'.
In case you don't understand basic concepts, they're not called 'religious killings'.

 

[Number37]

Where did I ever suggest child exploitation was 'confined' to a 'certain' religion?

You have not spoken about child sexual exploitation in any other context....like it is unique to the subject of this thread....when it isn't. You even threw in the 'western values' nonsense to add some superiority complex to your rantings...

Your veil is slipping. Again.

 

[bzparkes]

I haven't really looked at Turkey. Haven't kept up with Germany. I believe they are having trouble with under-spending on services for new immigrants, though, and so they are sometimes being taken advantage of by unscrupulous people or adding crime to their basket of income sources.

Turkey's a weird one. Heaps of Turks went to Germany and they're usually the ones who vote for Erdogan, whilst the ones actually living in Turkey hate him due to corruption and how badly he's managed inflation/the economy. It's also the first port of call for most refugees fleeing the ME for Europe and many remain there.

In current times, it's shifting towards a more Islamic nation than a secular one, which is at odds with Mustafa Kemal Ataturk's vision of separating Islam from the state when Turkey was founded after the downfall of the Ottoman empire. Many believe Erdogan is garnering support from the hard-line Islamists entering Turkey from neighbouring countries in a bid to remain in power.

Many Germans attribute social issues in their countries to recent Arab immigrants, especially in regards to lower wages, a raise in the retirement age, affordable housing, etc. The influx of undocumented migrants were apparently an initiative to bolster the workforce, but many are simply living off welfare and given free housing and haven't entered employment.

Having said that, whilst the unemployment rate of foreigners in Germany sits at 15.6%(as of March this year), this number is for all foreign workers and I don't have the breakdown specifically for Arab ones, especially considering Polish number of immigrants are high across other European countries and have a reputation of being free-loaders.

However, far-right politicians will and do use statistics such as these to garner support, whether it happens to be true or not.

I posted an episode of the Rationally Speaking podcast covering a study and book about this predisposition people have towards safe and legal work unless it becomes impossible to live decently without some unsafe industrial or agricultural work, or crime.

Link to this? Wouldn't mind having a listen.

Like, show up and do your work to the best of your ability according to the job description?

Yes, that's certainly one expectation however many companies are hiring on 'culture' fits first and foremost currently, especially in the IT sector.

The "guest in your house" analogy doesn't stack up - they're not in my house unless they are actually in my house.

Do I make you abide by the rules I have for house guests, though you're never in my house?

True, I could've worded this better.

The streets, your neighbourhood, your city, your country, it's not "your house". Things will happen that do not conform to your idea of proper behaviour, and you have no power to stop them. That's the way life is.

Sure, that's entirely true. You can vet people looking to move into your country to assess whether they would be a good fit or not though and no, I'm not suggesting banning Muslims or anything like that.

Nobody is seriously saying people who move to this country shouldn't abide by local laws. I believe that immigrants are a lot LESS likely to end up on the wrong side of the law than people born here.

A lot of that comes down to the type of immigrant coming here though and it's more likely to be due to education level than anything else.

But all in all these posts coupled with your others over the years just add up to some pretty staunch right-wing, intolerant, unaccepting attitudes that I don't think fit in with Australian values. What do we do about that?

Funnily enough I always considered myself left-wing, considering I vote Green, have many LGBTQ friends, married a migrant, have friends of varying backgrounds/ethnicities, etc.

Below are the Australian core 'values', as prescribed by the home affairs office for people wanting to become citizens. They're pretty basic but I think I can uphold those values quite easily:

• respect for the freedom and dignity of the individual
• freedom of religion (including the freedom not to follow a particular religion), freedom of speech, and freedom of association
• commitment to the rule of law, which means that all people are subject to the law and should obey it
• parliamentary democracy whereby our laws are determined by parliaments elected by the people, those laws being paramount and overriding any other inconsistent religious or secular “laws"
• equality of opportunity for all people, regardless of their gender, sexual orientation, age, disability, race, or national or ethnic origin
• a 'fair go' for all that embraces:
  • mutual respect
  • tolerance
  • compassion for those in need
  • equality of opportunity for all
• recognising the English language as the national language, and as an important unifying element of Australian society.

Having a different opinion/reservations about certain groups of people doesn't make you tolerant/unaccepting of them. Discriminating against them does. I don't discriminate against anyone I meet in life, unless they piss me off personally.

My personal views on Islam come from studying it when I was at Uni many years ago, as well as having known a number of people who come from Islamic countries(Pakistan/Iran/Indonesia/UAE) who are not Muslim and have told me many stories of personal discrimination they have been subjected to when in their home country.

Is that going to make me discriminate against any random Muslim I meet? Of course not. Hell, I lived in Bexley in Sydney for a while, which is mostly Lebanese. everyone was lovely and I quite enjoyed it there.

Expressing an opinion based on life experiences that differ to another's doesn't make you a bigot. Discriminating against others because of them does.

It seems that being critical of non-Caucasian groups

 

[bzparkes]

You have not spoken about child sexual exploitation in any other context....like it is unique to the subject of this thread....when it isn't. You even threw in the 'western values' nonsense to add some superiority complex to your rantings...

Your veil is slipping. Again.

Is this the 'child exploitation' thread, or the Islam thread?

For you, it's apparently the whataboutism thread.

 

[bzparkes]

I thought you said you were edumercated.

The clue is in the name: 'honour killings'.
In case you don't understand basic concepts, they're not called 'religious killings'.

So it's an Arab thing then?

Strange, because apparently it's forbidden in the Q'uran, yet the countries where it's most prevalent are predominantly ones where Islam is the dominant religion, India being the notable exception.

 

[Malifice]

Because read the thread title. This isn't the 'mass immigration' thread and most of the recent mass immigrants to Europe are from Islamic countries.

That's not true.

Here is a breakdown by major area of origin of the 72.4 million migrants residing in Europe (out of a population of 742 million) at mid-2013, based on the United Nations report Trends in International Migrant Stock: The 2013 Revision:

Area of origin	Number of immigrants to Europe (millions)	Percentage of total number of immigrants to Europe
Africa​	8.9	12
Asia​	18.6	27
Europe​	37.8	52
Latin America and the Caribbean​	4.5	6
Northern America​	0.9	1
Oceania​	0.3	0.4
Various​	1.3	2
TOTAL​	72.4	100

And dont forget that a significant number of European countries were already Islamic (Turkey for starters).

So what happens in 30+ years when they outnumber the local populations in those countries mass immigrants have fled to?

They wont.

How the **** do you think 3 percent of the population are going to outnumber the other 97 percent in 30 years?

Not much I can do about being not being Aboriginal however I was born here and would like to preserve the way of life I currently have, not that I ever see this being an issue for Australia.

Muslims are not affecting your current way of life, nor do they pose a threat of changing it.

Of course I do. I've also not once suggested any laws to target Muslims, have I?

So what should be done about this 'Muslim menace' you're arguing exists?

Nothing? Or should we enact special laws to 'stop the problem'?

 

[Malifice]

So it's an Arab thing then?

Strange, because apparently it's forbidden in the Q'uran, yet the countries where it's most prevalent are predominantly ones where Islam is the dominant religion, India being the notable exception.

And parts of (non Islamic) Africa, and in the Philippines.

They're not Islamic you dickhead. There is literally nothing in the Quran or the Islamic faith that supports honor killings.

Many Muslim commentators and organizations condemn honor killings as an un-Islamic cultural practice.[111] There is no mention of honor killing (extrajudicial killing by a woman's family) in the Qur'an,[112] and the practice violates Islamic law.

Honor killing - Wikipedia

This is your last warning. Stick to criticisms of the religion, or else I'm booting you from the thread.

 

[evolved2]

1/

Do you wonder why young muslims get radicalised?

The factors are well understood.

Do you think part of it could be because someone whispers in their ear, "look at the wording of the Constitution, look at the preaching of PM's and other members of parliament".
Would be a pretty easy sell IMO.

I'm happy to remove all elements of religion from parliament. Which parts of the constitution do you view as potentially being responsible for radicalising Muslims?

2/

There is a common theme among the anti-Islam brigade...the teachings of Islam are irrational, therefore I hate Islam.
Hating Islam because it's irrational is irrational.

All religions are irrational. The Abrahamic religions tend to be particularly nefarious and incompatible with modern values of tolerance towards others, LGBT rights, and acceptance of science.

We see the results of allowing Abrahamic religion driving governance in the US through banning abortion and attempting to get creationism into science classrooms.

In the same way that Christianity should be fought and controlled, Islam should be too.

Why should we allow religious people control over our lives? It's fine when believers keep their religion to themselves, but we know that's not the goal.

 

[Malifice]

I'm happy to remove all elements of religion from parliament.

While I agree with you here, you're aware that there are several actual Christian political parties active, and we recently had a Hillsong dude as PM (Morrison, backed up by his Happy Clappers that have taken over the NSW Liberals), and a Catholic priest trained dude (Abbott the 'Mad Monk') as one just prior to that right?

You heard of Fred Nile?

Who's your biggest threat here for imposing religious bullshit on you via our Parliament; the nations Christian majority, or our 2 percent Muslim minority?

 

[evolved2]

While I agree with you here, you're aware that there are several actual Christian political parties active, and we recently had a Hillsong dude as PM (Morrison, backed up by his Happy Clappers that have taken over the NSW Liberals), and a Catholic priest trained dude (Abbott the 'Mad Monk') as one just prior to that right?

You heard of Fred Nile?

Who's your biggest threat here for imposing religious bullshit on you via our Parliament; the nations Christian majority, or our 2 percent Muslim minority?

I'm aware of all that. There's no current Muslim threat I can think of.

It's in everyone's interest to keep politics and religion separate, and plenty of Christians and Muslims feel the same way.