Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Johnny Bananas]

The influence of western religions is:
1. Arguably part of what has made Western countries the type of place that people want to move to, rather than away from

Can you please explain how?

Islam is the kind of influence that turns countries into basket cases/failed states that people just can't wait to get away from.

Always? Turkey, Malaysia and Indonesia don't seem like failed states to me. And many people want to go to the Maldives, though mostly not permanently.

Its proponents are highly energised, and due to immigration its influence is increasing.

How does this increasing influence manifest? Is it increasing more than the influence of Indian or Chinese culture, seeing as those make up a larger percentage of immigrants?

My point isn't specifically "let's ignore all of Catholicism's problems", instead it's more like let's not just play this particular game of whataboutism for something that is so much more benign and almost done running its course.

Benign, you say, when they run hospitals, schools and their adherents often get elected Prime Minister?

 

[sr36]

White people are less racist than most people I know.

I love that you think you're anti-identity politics. You're advocating for immigration policy to be decided by identity and make broad sweeping statements about particular identities. Going by your posting, I'd say your politics and beliefs are fuelled by identity.

 

[ElectricG]

Can you please explain how?

It may have had some part in instilling values that aren't common in other countries.

Always? Turkey, Malaysia and Indonesia don't seem like failed states to me. And many people want to go to the Maldives, though mostly not permanently.

No not always, but I'd bet you'd still live in Australia over Turkey, Malaysia, or Indonesia, and you picked those because they're the best of the bunch. As for the Maldives, you've picked a very specific tourist mecca there which is fairly unrelated to the conversation of how we best organise society.

How does this increasing influence manifest? Is it increasing more than the influence of Indian or Chinese culture, seeing as those make up a larger percentage of immigrants?

Muslim activists and their western useful idiots wanting to see Israel destroyed and its population butchered is one example. The fact that there are serious people in our government both-sidesing the issue is part of that influence. How many "Australians" disappeared overseas to fight for ISIS or other terror groups during that period?

Indian and Chinese immigration doesn't tend to bring any of that sort of baggage.

Benign, you say, when they run hospitals, schools and their adherents often get elected Prime Minister?

Relatively. Maybe even "good" as opposed to benign.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

It may have had some part in instilling values that aren't common in other countries.


No not always, but I'd bet you'd still live in Australia over Turkey, Malaysia, or Indonesia, and you picked those because they're the best of the bunch. As for the Maldives, you've picked a very specific tourist mecca there which is fairly unrelated to the conversation of how we best organise society.


Muslim activists and their western useful idiots wanting to see Israel destroyed and its population butchered is one example. The fact that there are serious people in our government both-sidesing the issue is part of that influence. How many "Australians" disappeared overseas to fight for ISIS or other terror groups during that period?

Indian and Chinese immigration doesn't tend to bring any of that sort of baggage.

Relatively. Maybe even "good" as opposed to benign.

Yet the country that starts the most wars and is funding/supplying weapons for a genocide right now, is a Christian country.

 

[sr36]

Yet the country that starts the most wars and is funding/supplying weapons for a genocide right now, is a Christian country.

If you ignore the crusades, the inquisitions, the churches active encouragement of colonisation and subsequent genocides, the recent atrocities in former Yugoslavia, Rwanda, centuries of repression and violence towards non-heterosexuals, Christian terrorist cells and actions, etc... and then focus on Iran and Islamic terrorist cells and acts and ignore periods of peace and prosperity in majority islamic communities you can come to the ignorant conclusion that Christian communities are innately peaceful and Islamic communities innately warring and repressive. And then you can project forward 100 years with fears of Islamic growth with made up percentages and assume that the world is changing horribly due to the increase of Islam in the West, by assuming that there will be no change in terms of attitudes towards secularism and acceptance in either Christian or Islamic communities and then you can paint our future as being that if Iran if we don't root out Islam.

 

[sr36]

No not always, but I'd bet you'd still live in Australia over Turkey, Malaysia, or Indonesia, and you picked those because they're the best of the bunch. As for the Maldives, you've picked a very specific tourist mecca there which is fairly unrelated to the conversation of how we best organise society.

It's a silly game. Turkey or Rwanda? Malaysia or Venezuela? Where are you choosing to live?

There's a heap more than religion that goes into how peaceful or violent a community is. And frankly the most violent continent in the world is the most Christian continent - South and Central America. The most violent country in South East Asia is the only majority Christian country of South East Asia - The Phillipines.

 

[ElectricG]

It's a silly game. Turkey or Rwanda? Malaysia or Venezuela? Where are you choosing to live?

There's a heap more than religion that goes into how peaceful or violent a community is. And frankly the most violent continent in the world is the most Christian continent - South and Central America. The most violent country in South East Asia is the only majority Christian country of South East Asia - The Phillipines.

Sure but the point is that all Islamic countries suck. In particular those which have become more Islamic due to revolution.

 

[sr36]

Sure but the point is that all Islamic countries suck. In particular those which have become more Islamic due to revolution.

I'd suggest that you've had little to do with the Islamic world if you think you can write off all Islamic countries as sucking.

Centuries of wealth and education have resulted in much of Europe and some countries with strong European populations beginning to reject some of the more repressive elements of traditional Christianity. And centuries of nationhood have seen a reduction in tribalism, but from time to time tribalism's cousin nationalism comes to the fore, which is what we're seeing currently - all around the world with a rise of intolerance and depictions of cultural glory and sinfulness.

It's ridiculous to expect the Arabs of the Middle East, who 100 years ago where primarily illiterate nomadic goat herders to have forsaken unscientific thinking to the same degree as Western countries with their very different recent history. Just as it's ridiculous to expect Rwandan Christians to be in the same positions n as the French.

 

[ElectricG]

I'd suggest that you've had little to do with the Islamic world if you think you can write off all Islamic countries as sucking.

Centuries of wealth and education have resulted in much of Europe and some countries with strong European populations beginning to reject some of the more repressive elements of traditional Christianity. And centuries of nationhood have seen a reduction in tribalism, but from time to time tribalism's cousin nationalism comes to the fore, which is what we're seeing currently - all around the world with a rise of intolerance and depictions of cultural glory and sinfulness.

It's ridiculous to expect the Arabs of the Middle East, who 100 years ago where primarily illiterate nomadic goat herders to have forsaken unscientific thinking to the same degree as Western countries with their very different recent history. Just as it's ridiculous to expect Rwandan Christians to be in the same positions n as the French.

Would Australian life be better or worse for adopting more Islamic influence? You know the answer in spite of the way you have opted to grade Islamic nations on a curve.

 

[sr36]

Would Australian life be better or worse for adopting more Islamic influence? You know the answer in spite of the way you have opted to grade Islamic nations on a curve.

My point isn't grading Islamic nations. Quite the opposite; it's not attributing everything to Islam. There's no more reason to attribute Hussain's Iraq to Islam than to attribute Milosevics Serbia to Christianity or Hitler's Germany or the Hutus massacring Tutsi to Christianity - but I guarantee you if the Hutu were Muslims and not Christians that genocide would be laid at the feet of Islam - but have you ever heard anyone attribute it to Christianity or even mention that they are Christians?

All the Abrahamic religions have a heap of scripture and previous clerical judgements to justify massacre, repression and genocide in the name of religion and historically they've all had sects advocating for it and carrying it out, as well as a heap more sects advocating peace and harmony. At this point of history there's more Islamic groups using scripture to advocate massacre than Christians doing likewise, but that's ebbed and flowed throughout history and there's a rise of it in Christian America with many wanting to bring on Armageddon. Generally the rise and fall is more connected to power, politics, money and education than to the small differences in the faiths.

In a nutshell, I don't care what faith our refugees come from and certainly don't think there should be faith based immigration laws that discriminate against Muslims in terms of family reunion, employment or other visa types. But I do hope that there continues to be a general rise of agnostics and that secularism remains the cornerstone of our politics, which is unlikely to occur if the government gets pressured to prioritise one faith over another, which is the core goal being pushed with the Islamophobic argument.

In terms of whether Australia would be better with more Islamic influence, it depends on which aspects of Islam you're referring to. Modern Australian society could do with an injection of humility, hospitality, charity and empathy for the poor - aspects that tend to be very strong in Islamic cultures. But obviously it doesn't need the repressive elements that hold sway in some Islamic countries.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Integrate? Europe’s Muslims are damned if we do and damned if we don’t | Shada Islam

The new allegation in Islamophobic discourse is that even Muslims who appear ‘well-integrated’ hate the west, says commentator on EU affairs Shada Islam

www.theguardian.com

Some great points made in this one.

Yet as I discovered when researching the recent Islamophobic frenzy in the Netherlands after violence in Amsterdam between Maccabi Tel Aviv football fans and local people, there is a shriller and more insidious twist to the conventional civilisational, Eurocentric narrative. The subtext is that there is no longer a distinction between bad and good Muslims. Those who are part of the mainstream are just as much of a problem as those who are supposedly unadapted and antisocial.

such “malicious” remarks were meant to keep Muslims in a constant state of being “foreign”, even though they’re not. “It’s meant to discipline, humiliate, and – now it has become clear – punish them by taking away their nationality if they don’t do what you want.”

 

[Johnny Bananas]

It may have had some part in instilling values that aren't common in other countries.

Which ones? Would you say Christianity's long-time use of the Curse of Ham as justification of the enslavement of Africans reflected these values? Or the Catholic Church's persecution of Galileo? Or Martin Luther's rabid antisemitism?

No not always, but I'd bet you'd still live in Australia over Turkey, Malaysia, or Indonesia, and you picked those because they're the best of the bunch.

Yes, and I'd rather live in any of those countries than in the Democratic Republic of the Congo or Russia or Ukraine which are mostly Christian. Wealth and peace are the bigger factors than religion in that regard.

And I'd say there are multiple nations that are better than those to live in if you're getting paid well or are a local: the UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, Brunei, even Morocco sounds nice if you have money.

As for the Maldives, you've picked a very specific tourist mecca there which is fairly unrelated to the conversation of how we best organise society.

So why isn't Haiti also a tourist mecca? They've got nice beaches too and are mostly Christian.

Muslim activists and their western useful idiots wanting to see Israel destroyed and its population butchered is one example.

Hey good work in strawmanning all opposition to Israel as advocating genocide. Did you consider that many people, Muslim and non-Muslim, want a political solution where both sides live in peace and dignity, be it a one-State solution or two-state solution?

I'm going to leave this particular point there to comply with the thread rules.

The fact that there are serious people in our government both-sidesing the issue is part of that influence. How many "Australians" disappeared overseas to fight for ISIS or other terror groups during that period?

Some disappeared to fight for the Kurds too. Some disappeared to fight for Ukraine recently. Ideologues will be ideologues, the point is not everyone in a group is an ideologue and it's ugly to treat them as such.

Indian and Chinese immigration doesn't tend to bring any of that sort of baggage.

All immigration brings baggage. Have you heard about the response at UQ among CCP supporting students when Drew Pavlou tried to protest for Taiwan? Or casteism amongst Indian immigrants?

Relatively. Maybe even "good" as opposed to benign.

Are you not concerned in any way about their ability to indoctrinate children? I might add Catholic institutions don't have the best history with children.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Islamic child r@pe gangs in England coming back into the limelight recently, Elon Musk has spread attention about it on X.

The stories are horrific.

 

[Mofra]

Islamic child r@pe gangs in England coming back into the limelight recently, Elon Musk has spread attention about it on X.

The stories are horrific.

'Dancing Boys' are a cultural phenomenon in Afghanistan.
Religion allows groups like this to fester.

 

[JackOutback]

Islamic child r@pe gangs in England coming back into the limelight recently, Elon Musk has spread attention about it on X.

The stories are horrific.

Yes, Elon is deliberately spreading misinformation about Tommy Robinson, a convicted fraudster who has committed assaults and racist attacks, who has been found in a court of law to have lied about a teenage boy committing rape and almost caused the collapse of a trial against actual child rapists.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Yes, Elon is deliberately spreading misinformation about Tommy Robinson, a convicted fraudster who has committed assaults and racist attacks, who has been found in a court of law to have lied about a teenage boy committing rape and almost caused the collapse of a trial against actual child rapists.

You never cease to amaze me.

 

[JackOutback]

You never cease to amaze me.

Neither do you.

Any instances of child rape is horrific and should be dealt with by the authorities. But let's be honest, neither you or Tommy Robinson care about the victims of child rape, you care that you can pin some on an Islamic person. The Catholic Church has more verifiable examples of child rape but you're not leading the charge to eliminate them.

Tommy Robinson is a proven liar, thug, racist, fraudster and plenty more. If you're siding with his version of events then you can be assured you are on the wrong side.

 

[Mister Excitement]

There's no more reason to attribute Hussain's Iraq to Islam than to attribute Milosevics Serbia to Christianity or Hitler's Germany or the Hutus massacring Tutsi to Christianity - but I guarantee you if the Hutu were Muslims and not Christians that genocide would be laid at the feet of Islam - but have you ever heard anyone attribute it to Christianity or even mention that they are Christians?

You don't know the history of the Serbs, the Serbs were initially Catholics baptised along with the Croats by priests of the Catholic Church. King Tomislav received and protected the Catholic Serbs when they were expelled by the Bulgarian Simeon from Rascia.

So Milosevic could not be a Christian because he wasn't even a Catholic, truth be told he was a communist, that's why he got on so well with Croatia's own communist war criminal Franjo Tudjman during that sham war in the '90's.

So you can only blame the Yugoslav war on communism because both Milosevic and Tudjman were communists, and it's known that Christians can't be communists. So you can stop spreading misinformation now.

And just on Hussain, I know an Iraqi of the Catholic faith who tells me that he never had a single problem living in Hussain's Iraq, only left his homeland because of the Americans is what he tells me.

 

[sr36]

You don't know the history of the Serbs, the Serbs were initially Catholics baptised along with the Croats by priests of the Catholic Church. King Tomislav received and protected the Catholic Serbs when they were expelled by the Bulgarian Simeon from Rascia.

So Milosevic could not be a Christian because he wasn't even a Catholic, truth be told he was a communist, that's why he got on so well with Croatia's own communist war criminal Franjo Tudjman during that sham war in the '90's.

So you can only blame the Yugoslav war on communism because both Milosevic and Tudjman were communists, and it's known that Christians can't be communists. So you can stop spreading misinformation now.

And just on Hussain, I know an Iraqi of the Catholic faith who tells me that he never had a single problem living in Hussain's Iraq, only left his homeland because of the Americans is what he tells me.

Strange post. Not even a Catholic so can't be a Christian? 86% of Serbs identify as Christian.

 

[Mister Excitement]

Strange post. Not even a Catholic so can't be a Christian?

Correct.

86% of Serbs identify as Christian.

So what, I know Croatian communists that identify as Catholic eventhough Catholics can't be communists, so I identify those "Catholics" as communists and not Catholic.

Like if a male identifies as a woman I'm not going believe they're a woman because that's what they believe. I'm free to believe what I want aren't I?

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Neither do you.

Any instances of child rape is horrific and should be dealt with by the authorities. But let's be honest, neither you or Tommy Robinson care about the victims of child rape, you care that you can pin some on an Islamic person. The Catholic Church has more verifiable examples of child rape but you're not leading the charge to eliminate them.

Tommy Robinson is a proven liar, thug, racist, fraudster and plenty more. If you're siding with his version of events then you can be assured you are on the wrong side.

I would be very interested in seeing you back up your wild claim that the Catholic Church has: gang r*ped more children than Islamic men in England across the past 30-40 years. Please provide sources for that claim.

For the record, I am not a "Tommy Robinson" supporter and have actually never seen anything he's produced. I was referring to the accounts shared by UK politicians and victims regarding this systematic abuse, and the UKs refusal to prosecute the perpatrators.

I find your position on these issues quite sick. You are willing to sacrifice clear morality at the altar of your progressiveness, to the extent you are morally baseless. Rest assured Jack. If there is anything I am opposed to you on, I know that I am on the right side of history.

 

[10571z]

Anyone is at risk of radicalisation if they're treated like enemies by society at large. It isn't confined to Muslims. The Black Panthers were not a Muslim organisation, neither were the IRA.

There will always be enough radicals performing attacks to keep a huge portion of westerners hating Islam.

That’ll never change. That’s the point.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Islamic child r@pe gangs in England coming back into the limelight recently, Elon Musk has spread attention about it on X.

The stories are horrific.

From earlier in this thread.

Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal - at least 1400 children
Rochdale sex trafficking gang. Forty-seven girls.
Telford child sex abuse ring - up to 1,000 girls may have been abused, with some even murdered.
Oxford child sex abuse ring - more than 300 children.
Derby child sex abuse ring - up to 100 girls.
Bristol child sex abuse ring – Somalis this time, same type of offences.
Newcastle child sex abuse ring - up to 278 victims.
Halifax child sex abuse ring - the principal victim was abused by at least a hundred men from the age of 13.

It has been widely acknowledged that UK police forces and prosecutors often did not take action for fear of being called racist or Islamophobic. It has come back into the news because the Labour government refuses to hold a national inquiry into historic sexual abuse by grooming gangs across the country.

 

[Mister Excitement]

Catholic Church is the one I am talking about. They lobbied to retain the right to discriminate based on things like sexuality and gender expression. They have power. They cannot be trusted not to try and muscle law makers into giving them favours and shaping society in their own image.

As a Catholic Croat you make me laugh , even in a majority Catholic country like Croatia the Church and state are separate and anti-Catholic communists run the country. So if the Catholic Church has no power in a country like Croatia how can it have any power in a country like Australia?

 

[Chief]

even in a majority Catholic country like Croatia the Church and state are separate and anti-Catholic communists run the country

I don't know much about today's Croatian government. But Croatia is not Australia.