Multiplat Yakuza games

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RGG socials posting the last few months is making sense. It started with K1 and this lined up with TV show announcement and eventually Switch announcement (how cool was Shishido actor as the dad in the new trailer). Once they got to K2 they heavily posted Majima scenes which lead to everyone asking "Majima Gaiden?" and thar turned out to be the case. Then they were posting almost nothing but Y3 until very recently before suddenly stopping anything about older games about a week out from the summit. Are they just going through the games in order? Maybe, but why not continue with Y4?

I'm sure their socials for the next week or two will be dominated by Pirates, TV show and probably some IW promo still but if they don't pick up series posting with Y4 after TGG then I think it's still fair to speculate that K3 is in the "more announcements to come". They would have been working on Pirates before IW was released and there were parts of Rich Island in the Pirates trailer that looked like they could have been Okinawa.

I think we can just about put a line through the continuation of Judgement at this point too unfortunately.
 
RPCB said:


Yep.
Click to expand...


I was just watching an interview with Colin Moriarty about the development of Concord and it was just absurd. 8 years at $400million is bonkers. It makes no sense. What were they doing that took so long and cost so much? Apparently they didn't even have an MVP (minimum viable product) until Sony bought them out 18 months ago and poured in another $200million. Now I'm far from an expert or work in IT but learnt a lot about software development (from planning to design methodology) when I did my programming cert IV and also learnt a lot about how game studios worked about 15-20 years ago when I had a couple good mates at Krome (one was even a lead). I understand how RGG develop through interviews and dissecting their games as I play and don't know why other studios aren't the same.

RGG are known for their reusability. They admitted this and it's evident in their games. They don't make anything to use once but everything from their assets to their code is designed from the start to be reused (which is why it's obvious K3 is coming at some point). Everyone also sticks to one role. If your job is minigames you're doing minigames for every game. They actually respect the four pillars of object orientated programming and apply it to everything which is how they're able to take anything from one game and simply plug it into the next.

How you work on a game as a team you have the master project on a server and to work on your part you would check files out so no one else can alter them, then when you're done you "push" them back to the server where it will be reviewed by someone more senior and if it's ok and doesn't break the project then the updates are committed and everyone can sync the updated project. While you are waiting for your code/assets/whatever to be reviewed you are able to work on other parts of the game or another project. This is how RGG are operating. They will have 2-3 projects on the go at once and because there is so much reusability anything for one game will also be ready for another game. So it's not hard to imagine how much of Pirates was developed during IW.

This way RGG are able to also retain their workforce. Take so many other studios where you keep hearing about layoffs after games release - they aren't working on the next project or it's too far back in progress and some disciplines simply aren't needed at that point. Since other studios are also making everything from scratch it's hard work too much on the next game when you have to wait for the engine techs and programmers to be freed up to lay the ground foundations.

I noticed too that RGG games don't bother with make baked 3D assets unless they're important or "hero" assets. They will use a lot of flat surfaces with PBO type textures if they want to simulate detail, but they won't even "bake" a high poly over a low poly if it's something like a door handle to hide the corners. Next time you play something look at a light post or door knob. It will probably be only 8 sides. This is normal but typically you would create an extremely high poly version and bake that into the low poly and it mostly hides the corners of the low poly version. So they are literally halving the time it takes to create 3D assets by simply not bothering to create a second model.

The fact that in K1 they were able to literally lift the animations out of the original Y1 and reuse them so many years later means that as a studio they have maintained some amazing discipline in the way they design and develop even if they've upgraded their engine multiple times in between.
 
Never played one before, started Yakuza: Like a Dragon tonight. Finished chapter 1. Game is very fun, vibe is similar to me at least to Saints Row.

Latest announcement of the pirate game has me intrigued. Should I be finishing this and playing another before that comes out?
 
dwwaino said:
I was just watching an interview with Colin Moriarty about the development of Concord and it was just absurd. 8 years at $400million is bonkers. It makes no sense. What were they doing that took so long and cost so much? Apparently they didn't even have an MVP (minimum viable product) until Sony bought them out 18 months ago and poured in another $200million. Now I'm far from an expert or work in IT but learnt a lot about software development (from planning to design methodology) when I did my programming cert IV and also learnt a lot about how game studios worked about 15-20 years ago when I had a couple good mates at Krome (one was even a lead). I understand how RGG develop through interviews and dissecting their games as I play and don't know why other studios aren't the same.

RGG are known for their reusability. They admitted this and it's evident in their games. They don't make anything to use once but everything from their assets to their code is designed from the start to be reused (which is why it's obvious K3 is coming at some point). Everyone also sticks to one role. If your job is minigames you're doing minigames for every game. They actually respect the four pillars of object orientated programming and apply it to everything which is how they're able to take anything from one game and simply plug it into the next.

How you work on a game as a team you have the master project on a server and to work on your part you would check files out so no one else can alter them, then when you're done you "push" them back to the server where it will be reviewed by someone more senior and if it's ok and doesn't break the project then the updates are committed and everyone can sync the updated project. While you are waiting for your code/assets/whatever to be reviewed you are able to work on other parts of the game or another project. This is how RGG are operating. They will have 2-3 projects on the go at once and because there is so much reusability anything for one game will also be ready for another game. So it's not hard to imagine how much of Pirates was developed during IW.

This way RGG are able to also retain their workforce. Take so many other studios where you keep hearing about layoffs after games release - they aren't working on the next project or it's too far back in progress and some disciplines simply aren't needed at that point. Since other studios are also making everything from scratch it's hard work too much on the next game when you have to wait for the engine techs and programmers to be freed up to lay the ground foundations.

I noticed too that RGG games don't bother with make baked 3D assets unless they're important or "hero" assets. They will use a lot of flat surfaces with PBO type textures if they want to simulate detail, but they won't even "bake" a high poly over a low poly if it's something like a door handle to hide the corners. Next time you play something look at a light post or door knob. It will probably be only 8 sides. This is normal but typically you would create an extremely high poly version and bake that into the low poly and it mostly hides the corners of the low poly version. So they are literally halving the time it takes to create 3D assets by simply not bothering to create a second model.

The fact that in K1 they were able to literally lift the animations out of the original Y1 and reuse them so many years later means that as a studio they have maintained some amazing discipline in the way they design and develop even if they've upgraded their engine multiple times in between.
Click to expand...

Brilliant post!

omgfridge said:
Never played one before, started Yakuza: Like a Dragon tonight. Finished chapter 1. Game is very fun, vibe is similar to me at least to Saints Row.

Latest announcement of the pirate game has me intrigued. Should I be finishing this and playing another before that comes out?
Click to expand...

Hard to answer without saying go back to the very beginning and play Yakuza 0, Yakuza Kiwami/Kiwami 2 (remakes of Yakuza 1 and 2), Yakuza 3-6. I say that because even though Like A Dragon is be a new cast of characters, some characters will appear from the original Yakuza series and you won’t be able to avoid spoilers of what happened during the original Yakuza series (especially Y6). So if you want to eventually play those, you will already know the story.

If you just want to continue on the Yakuza LAD story path. After LAD, you can play Like A Dragon Gaiden (it’s a spin-off showing you want happens to one of the characters post Yakuza 6, the game leads into Infinite Wealth). Like A Dragon Infinite Wealth is the sequel to Yakuza LAD. Chronologically it is Yakuza LAD/Gaiden/Infinite Wealth, but it doesn’t really matter which order you play those two games in. Although Gaiden is a short game, so maybe play that one before Infinite Wealth.
 
That's the problem with a series that has been going for so long - where do new players come in? Telling someone to start from the beginning is daunting and not everyone has the spare time and discipline. The change in game types might be jarring too aatrhe Ichiban games are turn based RPG while the rest are action/brawlers.

Like a Dragon (technically Yakuza 7) is supposed to be a reset to the series so if you consider that an entry point for new players then I'd still recommend playing them in release order since then. So Like a Dragon, The Man Who Erased His Name, Infinite Wealth then lastly the coming Pirate Yakuza game. You won't understand the references to previous characters or events or the significance of Kiryu or Majima but nothing some videos on YouTube shouldn't fix.

Though with Pirates set after the events of IW and Majima apparently having concussion (according to the trailer) it appears like it might be somewhat removed from the other games so I wouldn't be surprised if many pick it up as their first game.
 

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RPCB said:
I am not sure if anything of Yakuza will be shown at the Tokyo Game Show, but just an FYI that it’s tomorrow night at 8PM AEST. 40 minute show.
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All the news two months ago was that RGG were announcing their next game during the Sega presentation and we can maybe assume that's changed since they instead did that at their own summit. However the summit wouldn't have been a spare of the moment thing and Pirates would have always been planned to reveal then so I wonder if they still have a spot during the Sega presentation? Unless it's just showing the trailer again. They have a hands on demo at their booth which is another reason they're attending. They did say at the summit that they have more to announce so I'm still remaining hopeful even if those hopes were dashed a bit after the summit.

My biggest thing from the TGG now though is any news on Persona 6. Surely Atlus are going to finally announce it ffs. We know it's in development.
 
dwwaino said:
All the news two months ago was that RGG were announcing their next game during the Sega presentation and we can maybe assume that's changed since they instead did that at their own summit. However the summit wouldn't have been a spare of the moment thing and Pirates would have always been planned to reveal then so I wonder if they still have a spot during the Sega presentation? Unless it's just showing the trailer again. They have a hands on demo at their booth which is another reason they're attending. They did say at the summit that they have more to announce so I'm still remaining hopeful even if those hopes were dashed a bit after the summit.

My biggest thing from the TGG now though is any news on Persona 6. Surely Atlus are going to finally announce it ffs. We know it's in development.
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You just know that if RGG doesn’t announce anything else tonight, our disappointment will last about a month before they announce three new Yakuza games to be released within the next 6 months. :p
 
If they were originally planning on announcing Majima Sparrow during the Sega/Atlus special then I don't know where it would have fit in. It was a pre-recorded 2 hour presentation with a panel and I don't think a single new announcement was made despite it being advertised as "17 new titles". Some new trailers like Stalker 2 and Persona 5 The Phantom X but that was it. They didn't even show the trailer Majima Gaiden 🧐

edit: Sunday afternoon they have the Japanese Games Awards and it's got the heading "Future games division"
 
RPCB said:
Brilliant post!
Click to expand...

I've reinstalled Y7, Gaiden and IW, saw this and wanted to show what I meant and this is even a modern game.

Check out all the cylindrical pipes. They only have 4 or 6 faces and no high poly normal map baked on top. Whenever I create anything round or cylindrical in Blender with the intention to import into UE I'll first make a version where performance isn't an issue. I'll do something like 32 or 64 sides, will probably even put a subdivision modifier on it again to really crank the geometry and make it look genuinely round. Once that is done I'll either remove the subdivision and start deleting edge loops or create a similar mesh with the same dimensions but maybe only 8, 12 or 16 faces. Then what you do is "bake" the high poly mesh onto the low poly and export the normal map (this is also how you bake details like say a brick or tiled wall onto flat surfaces). This is how most game assets are made but as you can see it's double the work. Look at this screen shot and there is obviously no high poly normal maps baked. They are doing half the work.

Then look at the textures. On the condensers they have simply "stamped" very low resolution textures (they look less than even 128p lol) onto the texture map. That isn't even a high poly bake. It's probably the same stamp they've been using since PS3 days.

The wall textures are also low res. They're probably using a low res trim sheet (lesson for another day) and it looks like only two variations for concrete walls on that trim sheet. The rule of thumb for large surface texturing was 1080p per square metre but some environment artists I've followed have suggested that for this gen that has doubled. You can see high repetition and that means these are small textures and they aren't even really bothering with something called vertex painting and just use the occasional decal/stamp to try and break things up. I also noticed RGG don't really bother with "dressing" around where geometry crashes so their level design process is really quick. They make games quickly because they simply aren't ****ing around.


1923b6af47f67-screenshotUrl.jpg
 
dwwaino said:
I've reinstalled Y7, Gaiden and IW, saw this and wanted to show what I meant and this is even a modern game.

Check out all the cylindrical pipes. They only have 4 or 6 faces and no high poly normal map baked on top. Whenever I create anything round or cylindrical in Blender with the intention to import into UE I'll first make a version where performance isn't an issue. I'll do something like 32 or 64 sides, will probably even put a subdivision modifier on it again to really crank the geometry and make it look genuinely round. Once that is done I'll either remove the subdivision and start deleting edge loops or create a similar mesh with the same dimensions but maybe only 8, 12 or 16 faces. Then what you do is "bake" the high poly mesh onto the low poly and export the normal map (this is also how you bake details like say a brick or tiled wall onto flat surfaces). This is how most game assets are made but as you can see it's double the work. Look at this screen shot and there is obviously no high poly normal maps baked. They are doing half the work.

Then look at the textures. On the condensers they have simply "stamped" very low resolution textures (they look less than even 128p lol) onto the texture map. That isn't even a high poly bake. It's probably the same stamp they've been using since PS3 days.

The wall textures are also low res. They're probably using a low res trim sheet (lesson for another day) and it looks like only two variations for concrete walls on that trim sheet. The rule of thumb for large surface texturing was 1080p per square metre but some environment artists I've followed have suggested that for this gen that has doubled. You can see high repetition and that means these are small textures and they aren't even really bothering with something called vertex painting and just use the occasional decal/stamp to try and break things up. I also noticed RGG don't really bother with "dressing" around where geometry crashes so their level design process is really quick. They make games quickly because they simply aren't ****ing around.


View attachment 2125529
Click to expand...

Finally a language that I could understand. :p

Basically this is the reason they have such a quick turnaround with games. I would definitely rather game developers take the RGG approach to video game making, and not have a 7 year development period to make one game. Ridiculous.
 
RPCB said:
Finally a language that I could understand. :p

Basically this is the reason they have such a quick turnaround with games. I would definitely rather game developers take the RGG approach to video game making, and not have a 7 year development period to make one game. Ridiculous.
Click to expand...

There is room for both. Video games can be works of art. That's how developers like Naughty Dog work like that and the result pays. Though it seems like everyone is trying to do that and we keep hearing about good studios closing because despite producing a relative hit it still wasn't enough to cover the development time. RGG prioritise fun and budget far less on the visuals while still improving them with each game. Like most gamers I'd love more games and would prefer more developers adopted this approach. Sure it means there will be more flops and RGG also don't want to risk burning the brand out (which is why if we can't have another Judgement then we need another spinoff in the same universe), but more games is more revenue which means even more games and the budget to improve on them more again.
 
dwwaino said:
I was just watching an interview with Colin Moriarty about the development of Concord and it was just absurd. 8 years at $400million is bonkers. It makes no sense. What were they doing that took so long and cost so much? Apparently they didn't even have an MVP (minimum viable product) until Sony bought them out 18 months ago and poured in another $200million. Now I'm far from an expert or work in IT but learnt a lot about software development (from planning to design methodology) when I did my programming cert IV and also learnt a lot about how game studios worked about 15-20 years ago when I had a couple good mates at Krome (one was even a lead). I understand how RGG develop through interviews and dissecting their games as I play and don't know why other studios aren't the same.
Click to expand...

Sorry but how is this Concord crap still spreading? Moriarty is not a reliable source and not a single other verification of the figure is out there.

There is literally no way it was budgeted 400 million. That is quite literally unheard of outside of games with unrelenting, pervasive marketing. That game had barely a whimper of a marketing campaign at that.

Off topic, but I hate dubious misinformation. As you said yourself, it makes no sense...

Edit: just realised I hadn't check the thread in a while and you posted this a week ago, probably when the reactionaries were carrying on. My bad 😅
 
Also don't agree that everyone should adopt RGG's method of recycling assets... But that is exactly where we will head, especially with AI. Games made with passion and care will be harder and harder to come by as they simply won't be able to justify them to shareholders.
 

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