Politics Young people won't embrace progressive politics when they see its failures

[Engimal v3]

There's a false assumption that people of colour can't be racist.

I'm in a mixed racial marriage with kids that can almost pass as Caucasian. I remember my then primary school son being excluded by a kid at school who was born in the same nation as my sons mum over what basically amounts to my kid not being brown enough.

I think the idea that POC can't be racist goes back to definitions of power, oppression, etc.

I'm not well-read enough to comment on that - but I keep it simple: discrimination based on race is racism. What you described sounds pretty racist to me - but this is also daily life for many POC in Australia.

When your country is ~75% white and almost everyone in positions of power are white, I think you have to accept that most racial discrimination isn't going to be against white people.

 

[peetoo]

Racist attitudes come from parents and family group.

It would be good to address it in all its forms, not just ‘white people” by which I presume we mean Europeans and the ier sub groups who hve the most deep seated historical animosity towards each other. I don’t need to name them, we have current overseas wars feeding it.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

White progressives seem to embrace the mantra of hating themselves over something they can't control. It's absurd.

View attachment 1868953

That's another example of bigoteering.

It's more that being a white cis heterosexual Christian male means your opinion doesn't count with progressives. They're only interested in hearing from minority groups, including those who follow religion that's the antithesis of all progressive values.

How many people have you actually met that act like this? I ask because it's a stereotype that's levied at progressives, yet when I look at progressive politcians both in Australia around the world, who are some of the prominent examples?

Dan Andrews: white cis heterosexual Christian male.

Adam Bandt: white cis heterosexual male.

Jeremy Corbyn: white cis heterosexual male.

Lula Da Silva: white cis heterosexual Christian male.

Emmanuel Macron: white cis heterosexual Christian* male.

Bernie Sanders: white cis heterosexual male.

*While there is some ambiguity as to whether Macron is personally Catholic or agnostic (he's described himself as both), he's clearly been much closer to the Catholic Church while in office than the French expect from their politicians, as they take state secularism very seriously.

If progressives were truly not interested in what white cis heterosexual males had to say, why do they keep supporting politicians with those characteristics? Some of them are Christian too.

 

[Gethelred]

How many people have you actually met that act like this? I ask because it's a stereotype that's levied at progressives, yet when I look at progressive politcians both in Australia around the world, who are some of the prominent examples?

Dan Andrews: white cis heterosexual Christian male.

Adam Bandt: white cis heterosexual male.

Jeremy Corbyn: white cis heterosexual male.

Lula Da Silva: white cis heterosexual Christian male.

Emmanuel Macron: white cis heterosexual Christian* male.

Bernie Sanders: white cis heterosexual male.

*While there is some ambiguity as to whether Macron is personally Catholic or agnostic (he's described himself as both), he's clearly been much closer to the Catholic Church while in office than the French expect from their politicians, as they take state secularism very seriously.

If progressives were truly not interested in what white cis heterosexual males had to say, why do they keep supporting politicians with those characteristics? Some of them are Christian too.

It's like all those leftie, progressive tech/media companies...

 

[Johnny Bananas]

It's like all those leftie, progressive tech/media companies...

The problem is there is a real difference between liberals (small-l) and leftists, at least in economic terms, and a catch-all term like "progressive" doesn't make the distinction between them. Macron for example is miles apart from Bandt or Sanders economically, but they're all pro-gay rights and don't publicly stoke fear and hatred against Muslims so they all get grouped as "progressive".

There's an opportunity there for the right to conflate leftists with corporate liberals, and people like Geert Wilders are skilled enough to do this. Labor are trying that in their attempts to discredit the Greens, but I'm not sure it's working as well, since Labor have been pretty pro-business themselves.

 

[evolved2]

How many people have you actually met that act like this? I ask because it's a stereotype that's levied at progressives, yet when I look at progressive politcians both in Australia around the world, who are some of the prominent examples?

Dan Andrews: white cis heterosexual Christian male.

Adam Bandt: white cis heterosexual male.

Jeremy Corbyn: white cis heterosexual male.

Lula Da Silva: white cis heterosexual Christian male.

Emmanuel Macron: white cis heterosexual Christian* male.

Bernie Sanders: white cis heterosexual male.

*While there is some ambiguity as to whether Macron is personally Catholic or agnostic (he's described himself as both), he's clearly been much closer to the Catholic Church while in office than the French expect from their politicians, as they take state secularism very seriously.

If progressives were truly not interested in what white cis heterosexual males had to say, why do they keep supporting politicians with those characteristics? Some of them are Christian too.

How many of those pollies would you call progressive? I've seen progressives argue that Bernie Sanders is center right, and you may agree with that.

For whatever reason, white Christians still hold a lot of power in Australian politics. I was thinking of progressives on social media (which is the only place I really interact with progressives) more than politicians.

 

[faible]

How many of those pollies would you call progressive? I've seen progressives argue that Bernie Sanders is center right, and you may agree with that.

For whatever reason, white Christians still hold a lot of power in Australian politics. I was thinking of progressives on social media (which is the only place I really interact with progressives) more than politicians.

Bernie is left in the US political sphere, whilst sits much further to the right than ours. Some of the stuff we have here would be downright communist according to the US; healthcare for example.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

How many of those pollies would you call progressive?

All of them, because progressivism to me is mostly about being socially liberal. So far as I'm aware, all of those politicians are generally in favour of the rights of marginalised groups and tolerance. I'd never say Macron was an economic leftist, he's a small-l liberal, but to me that fits under the progressive umbrella.

I've seen progressives argue that Bernie Sanders is center right, and you may agree with that.

I don't, but it's also relative. Certainly in the American context, Sanders is of the left. I wonder if the people you saw make that argument were anti-capitalist, and so they regard someone like Sanders who is outspoken critic of capitalism but also doesn't advocate its dismantlement as being supportive of capitalist systems, and for that reason consider him centre-right.

For whatever reason, white Christians still hold a lot of power in Australian politics. I was thinking of progressives on social media (which is the only place I really interact with progressives) more than politicians.

Oh okay, thank you for answering. May I ask, what social media sites do you mostly interact with them on? Is the interaction usually on pages/accounts that are bent towards one political strain, or on generalist pages/accounts like mainstream media pages?

 

[evolved2]

All of them, because progressivism to me is mostly about being socially liberal. So far as I'm aware, all of those politicians are generally in favour of the rights of marginalised groups and tolerance. I'd never say Macron was an economic leftist, he's a small-l liberal, but to me that fits under the progressive umbrella.


I don't, but it's also relative. Certainly in the American context, Sanders is of the left. I wonder if the people you saw make that argument were anti-capitalist, and so they regard someone like Sanders who is outspoken critic of capitalism but also doesn't advocate its dismantlement as being supportive of capitalist systems, and for that reason consider him centre-right.


Oh okay, thank you for answering. May I ask, what social media sites do you mostly interact with them on? Is the interaction usually on pages/accounts that are bent towards one political strain, or on generalist pages/accounts like mainstream media pages?

Some left leaning politically-based subreddits offer some interesting insight.

 

[peetoo]

So if progressive is now defined in this thread as social progressiveness, why does the title attribute failure to it?

As far as I can see these progressive govts are applying the progressiveness in a measured way, and not forcing the parts of society which seek to not progress so quickly to do so.

I’d say mao in China was a progressive failure

 

[MC Bad Genius]

How many of those pollies would you call progressive? I've seen progressives argue that Bernie Sanders is center right, and you may agree with that.

For whatever reason, white Christians still hold a lot of power in Australian politics. I was thinking of progressives on social media (which is the only place I really interact with progressives) more than politicians.

I've never properly understood why Bernie Sanders would be considered centre-right though. It feels like a strange argument to try and point out the difference in the overton window between the US and other countries, but I'm not sure it quite hits the mark. Maybe I'm more ignorant of his politics than I think though.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Some left leaning politically-based subreddits offer some interesting insight.

Echo chambers often develop into circle jerks, no matter what their political alignment.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Some left leaning politically-based subreddits offer some interesting insight.

Oh, so this isn't the only forum you feign persecution on?

 

[evolved2]

Echo chambers often develop into circle jerks, no matter what their political alignment.

I sincerely meant that as a compliment to the left.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I’d say mao in China was a progressive failure

Too right. All autocracies so far have shown to be progressive failures. It's possible that an autocratic ruler could rise who ruled progressively in all socio-political facets other than democratic choice, but we haven't seen that happen yet.

To me, democracy is less important than social cohesion and socio-political equality. If there was a fair ruler who met all the needs of their people without human rights abuses I'd be happy to never vote again. But as it is democracy is still better than what we've seen from competing politcal forms thus far.

Nobody resembling a fair and progressive autocrat has stepped forward. Yet.

 

[Blue1980]

Well here are my simplistic viewpoints, from a 'good faith for all' stance, given that a satisfactory definition would take a chapter for both

Progressive:

A change from the status quo for a positive outcome for those that have had previous negative outcome < read for the so far oppressed minority.

Pertinent to note, my personal belief is that 'progress' generally should, could favour the majority. This is where I think the base definition of 'progress' has been hijacked, much like the term 'woke' (to be used as a pejorative even though true definition is not) or 'gay' (which initially was used as a term to describe happiness, almost zero to do with homosexual preference)

Conservative:

Keeping the status quo that favours the majority and / or avoid detriment to the majority in favour of minority / minorities.

Err no.

You look at things like many conservatives do, that it’s a zero sum game, minorities being helped doesn’t mean the majority get screwed over. That’s illogical binary thinking.

If the society has more equal opportunity then everyone wins, and creates a more harmonious society.

Also progressives wanting universal health care, rich being taxed etc is for the majority.

Conservative positions of let the free market decide and lower taxes, trickle down economics only serves the top few percent.

 

[Blue1980]

So which conservative counties should young people look at to see their success?
At the moment we have the Nordic model v Switzerland??

Are Neoliberalism policies Conservative?
Let’s look at the failures of privatisation…the private health system….the inequality that private schools are causing…

Then we can look at the Justice and prison systems.

The “perfect” system changes based on the society, the times etc.

I think recent history has shown that regulated capitalism is the way to go. Interestingly Scandinavian countries have low business taxes but high personal taxes, could something like that work here.

Mind you income equality in Australia is pretty good compared to much of the world.

 

[Blue1980]

Entitlement.
The banner for alot of the youth today.
Alot, not all.

I’ve been hearing that for as long as I can remember and I’m 43 now. Heard about those good for nothing youth back in the late 80s.

Young people are always said to be entitled, there is nothing more tedious than generation wars.

 

[Blue1980]

The whole turning conservative trope has to be mingled with people perceiving that their lives have done well under conservatism.

Lot of people hitting that “sweet spot” feeling violently rogered by it.

Theres a reason they keep kicking on about election fraud and changing voting ages etc. they are becoming unelectable even with the media head start.

I’m either a really young gen X or a really old millennial at 43, and I’ve become more progressive as I’ve gotten older.

I cringe that I voted for Howard in my 20s but gradually learnt more and more and become more left leaning over time, and if anything continuing on that trajectory.

Now theoretically by some peoples reckoning I should have gone the other way. I mean I’ve been a home owner since my late 30s, earn way more money now. Thing is, I see how much politics is framed in a bullshit way, and culture war BS is stoked by the powerful (read Murdoch media) to distract from the Uber rich trying to take more for themselves.

Unless you are earning like 300k a year I can’t see why anyone would be thinking voting for LNP would be helping them in any way. And even then, why would you to the detriment of society as a whole?

 

[Saint]

So if progressive is now defined in this thread as social progressiveness, why does the title attribute failure to it?

As far as I can see these progressive govts are applying the progressiveness in a measured way, and not forcing the parts of society which seek to not progress so quickly to do so.

I’d say mao in China was a progressive failure

Social Progressiveness has practically always been successful. Human Rights, racial equality, workers' rights, womens' suffrage, ending of slavery.....the history of social progressiveness is practically what human progress has been measured by. Most of the attacks we have on the developing world is about how they lack social progress (i.e. womens' rights, voting rights, etc).

Economic "progressiveness" or what might be referred to as socialism has mixed results, by comparison. There's been good and bad socialist Governments, there's been good and bad conservative economic governments. Austraila is VERY conservative economically. The level of taxation on mineral extraction (oil, gas, minerals all included) is one of the smallest in the world. Our social safety net for the elderly and unemployed is set very low. I don't think it's been a raging success, but also not an obvious failure (depending where you sit on the spectrum and who you choose to compare us to).

 

[Carringbush2010]

You look at things like many conservatives do, that it’s a zero sum game, minorities being helped doesn’t mean the majority get screwed over. That’s illogical binary thinking.

Errr no, that's not what I said. Minorities being helped doesn't have to mean either or, that is a conservative position, not my position.

What I said was (apologies if wasn't clear) that helping minorities at the detriment of the majority is irrational. There is a balance that can be found, obviously, doesn't have to be detrimental to anyone.

If the society has more equal opportunity then everyone wins, and creates a more harmonious society.

That is whole idea of capitalism, is free market and equal opportunity. Capitalism doesn't exist anymore, not in its intended sense anyway.



What we have now, is monopolies and duopolies (think corporate banks, airlines and supermarkets for example) that profit gouge < this is not the intent of capitalism in its pure definition.

Often called neo capitalism.

Also progressives wanting universal health care, rich being taxed etc is for the majority.

Only the greedy want this, again not my position.

Conservative Greedy aholes positions of let the free market decide and lower taxes, trickle down economics only serves the top few percent.

Not every conservative is a profiteering ahole though, those who are, are greedy none the less.

I guess I'm replying from the op pov that progressives are irrational in intent / method to favour the minorities at the expense of the majority.

Of course IMO it is more nuanced than that, not every progressive is irrational in intent / method, only the irrational progressives.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I think recent history has shown that regulated capitalism is the way to go

Yep.

 

[Engimal v3]

White progressives seem to embrace the mantra of hating themselves over something they can't control. It's absurd.

View attachment 1868953

I hate images like this lol

And the reason why is because 5-10 years ago, I'd have been posting the same thing.

"White privilege" isn't getting a brown envelope with a wad of cash, it's far more subtle than that. Growing up, every person I saw on TV and every person in a position of power looked like me - it was in my mind from an early age that I could grow up and make a life for myself like these people. That's an example of white privilege.

For some reason, many white people (not you, I'm generalising here) throw tantrums when this is brought up. It's not saying they're bad, or white people are bad - rather it's pointing out that white people in this country get representation in all the ways that actually matter.

 

[mcnulty]

Unless you are earning like 300k a year I can’t see why anyone would be thinking voting for LNP would be helping them in any way.

This is pretty simplistic. I haven’t seen a breakdown but I’d imagine the small/family business vote would break Coalition. These people generally favour lower taxes, less regulation and more flexible industrial relations policies. And probably see the LNP more likely to deliver on these.

Most of them are making nowhere near 300K but represent a far higher percentage of the population than people who do.

 

[faible]

This is pretty simplistic. I haven’t seen a breakdown but I’d imagine the small/family business vote would break Coalition. These people generally favour lower taxes, less regulation and more flexible industrial relations policies. And probably see the LNP more likely to deliver on these.

Most of them are making nowhere near 300K but represent a far higher percentage of the population than people who do.

Oddly enough, whilst this is true, things like increasing wages is likely to have a flow-on benefit for many small businesses.

Giving corporate tax breaks, or tax breaks for high income earners doesn't really result in an increase in discretionary spending.

What we saw during Covid with the increased welfare payment was that low income earners basically spent whatever they got because it meant they could service needs. Instead of little Fred wearing an old beaten up pair of school shoes again this year, he could get a new pair, that type of stuff. If you give more money to already wealthy people they're unlikely to actually do anything with it.

My guess is that a lot of 'progressive' economic policy would likely benefit small business more than the conservative pet options of lowering corporate taxes and high tax brackets that really only impact those who are already very wealthy.