List Mgmt. 2022 Trade Thread - Part I

[phantom13]

Dougal is a mighty two inches taller than Battle. And played just 25 more career games.
Howard plays on the best forward just about every week and Battle would usually play on the third best taller player, Wilkie taking the second.
How many bags did the biggest and best forwards kick on Howard this year? And, do you think that would have been the case if Battle had stood them? I actually reckon you're marking Howard down for being the better player who has greater responsibilities in the team.

Howard plays on the tallest forward and Wilkie generally takes the most dangerous forward (regardless of size).

Trying to diminish what Battle did this year is such a weird angle. Ultimately there is a discussion about trading for another big monster defender (which i dont think we need) and if we got would likely squeeze either Howard or Battle out. I just dont see why we would do that.

 

[gringo2011]

Sorry Gringo, but I really don't think this Saints midfield has been a hard one to break into.
The new boys got in from day one, and Byrnes has been in and out without doing much at all.

Any saints mids who weren't given a crack were either desperately unlucky with the timing of their form/injury (not really the club's fault) or just didn't do enough either on match day or during the week. We don't really have visibility of their training, attitude, ability to follow instructions e.t.c. I'm still hopeful that Bytel sticks around - he's a good preseason away from having a good crack at it. I just don't think our non-selection of him has been that much of a disgrace.

Every team has some good players in the 2s not getting a go for this reason or that, and their supporters probably say much the same things about those players. Sometimes it can't be helped.

Byrnes is not a mid when he gets into the seniors. He plays high half forward or a HBF wing hybrid. Bytel is unlucky in that he's a true inside one position mid. Steele, Crouch, Gresham, Ross is a very stacked midfield. Unless one of Crouch or Steele gets injured there aren't spots on ball and the guys like Jones who have a POD are also going to need spots.

It's easier to get into Geelong or Collingwood's midfield this year. Sides with big spreads of midfielders who hold and carry ball are out of fashion at the moment. High possession rate isn't as valuable as guys who grab the ball out of the middle and move it fast to the outside or bomb it straight in.

Bytel types are back in vogue around the league but he's unfortunate that he's at a club that isn't playing that type of game plan. To me Will Brodie or Libba type of old school, first touch extractors are gold and we are about to throw one away.

 

[gringo2011]

I get your point but i think both his major injuries (the McKay one and the Butler one) were just complete freak accidents that no one could have avoided.

Unless you don't put your head in first. Probably right but needs technique. My son played footy the same way. Just went head down at the ball and got concussions all the time. He needed to turn his body instead of using his head like a battering ram. Once or twice is unlucky but after a while it's bad management.

 

[phantom13]

Unless you don't put your head in first. Probably right but needs technique. My son played footy the same way. Just went head down at the ball and got concussions all the time. He needed to turn his body instead of using his head like a battering ram. Once or twice is unlucky but after a while it's bad management.

Both incidents he got hit front on.

Once when he had the ball the other when he was trying to tackle, neither time did he stick his head in first.

We did contact and injury avoidance work at TAC from about 16 onwards and i had my technique for ground ball gets tweaked for the same reason you mention your son had issued.

None of that would have helped with those two incidents. I get what your saying and if he had a history of head knocks when contesting the ball or whatever id agree but those two incidents (and im not aware of any others) really couldnt have been avoided, complete freak accidents its just ashame they both happened to him.

 

[gringo2011]

Ive never said otherwise (thats likely a lie, i dont like Hill and never really have) but hes been perfectly adequate.

I was only making the point that Hill is an attacking player so when we dont have the ball hes a liability. We knew that, its not a suprised but saying hes never been a liability isnt really accurate. Weve not a played a style that made use of him but hes also never really improved his defeciencies.

You can blame him for getting 900k a year but you can judge his output against other players paid similar and in that regard hes never stacked up.

He's exactly the player we paid $900k pa for though. You don't buy Kosi Pickett and wonder why he isn't Patrick Dangerfield. That's on us.

 

[Klaatu]

Where is the evidence that Bytel is going, pure speculation.

 

[Klaatu]

Can't believe we sook over something that hasn't even happened.

 

[phantom13]

He's exactly the player we paid $900k pa for though. You don't buy Kosi Pickett and wonder why he isn't Patrick Dangerfield. That's on us.

You dont buy Kozi Pickett for 900k at all. Of course its on us, that doesnt mean people have to defend him.

Ultimately it seems he doesnt want to stay and i seriously doubt anyone wants to fight that outcome. It would be best for everyone (including him) if he moves on. The only query is what do we get back, given we can cop some of his wages the options are pretty endless.

 

[Joffaboy]

If you have some bulk you can turn a shoulder into them or turn your body into them and they'll think before going in. That said he probably has to learn some technique other than putting his head in first. I know when you're a bit more solid you feel more confident throwing your own body in though.

What? This is the most ridiculous thing I think I have ever read from you gringo. You honestly think he could have avoided both the facial injuries by turning his shoulder into them? For a start his jaw was from somebody turning their shoulder into his face as he was collecting the ball, or would you have preferred he squibbed getting the ball.
The second was a head clash when attempting to tackle from the side and was blindsided by the other Saints coming from the other side. Never seen a tackle performed having both arms out to tackle then turn sideways.

You honestly think an extra kilo of muscle would stop those head clashes. You have to be taking the piss. This surely can't be serious.

 

[St Kilda Death]

Are we talking Drivel or Dribble, or is Dribble the new Drivel, just like people now say "What's up Dog"?

Like:

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Bytel played 7 full length games in 2021.
Averages for those games, Disposals 14, CP's 7 , Tackles 6, Clearances 4
Highlight Hawks round 7, 21 disposals, 12 contested possessions, 8 tackles , 7 clearances.

Compare with Jones averages.
18 average disposals ( 2022) , 4 contested possessions, tackles 3.5 clearances 3

We can see where Bytel's strengths lay. Contested ball, tackles , clearances.

He missed the start of the season with a foot injury, coming back round 2 of the VFL.

You can follow his general VFL performance with supercoach points. He missed games again after round 9.
- Jack Bytel

I don't think he was really banging the door down until the last 3 games and yes we should have played him at Sydney. Even as a forward he'd have done more than Kent.

I'm hoping he stays and has a good pre-season so that he can hit the ground in the kind of condition he played his last game.

 

[Sully111]

Hopefully pies go out in straight sets. I hope Geelong smash them... and I never hope Geelong win.

 

[Joffaboy]

Both incidents he got hit front on.

Once when he had the ball the other when he was trying to tackle, neither time did he stick his head in first.

We did contact and injury avoidance work at TAC from about 16 onwards and i had my technique for ground ball gets tweaked for the same reason you mention your son had issued.

None of that would have helped with those two incidents. I get what your saying and if he had a history of head knocks when contesting the ball or whatever id agree but those two incidents (and im not aware of any others) really couldnt have been avoided, complete freak accidents its just ashame they both happened to him.

Bulk may have helped with the pre season shoulder injury, (didn't with Jack Steele and nobody can say he isn't conditioned) but the facial clashes were avoidable only if
a) He squibbed getting the ball v McKay
2) He squibbed tackling in the head clash.

Could have been built like Mickey Conlon and would not have made scintilla of difference

 

[St Kilda Death]

He does one or two frustrating things per game that drives me nuts . Eg when he fresh air punched the ball then tried to pretend he touched it because he was embarrassed. He also has one of those faces but you’re right he’s the best we have and hopefully works on his game .

Nah I loved that he tried to claim it.
I was right behind him and he clearly missed it, but it was a percentage play.
He tried to convince the goal ump but was dejected when the ump called a behind.
He knew he hadn’t touched it but you never know if you can get the ump to say it was touched and then the review is too close to overturn as often is the case, u get away with one.

 

[gringo2011]

Can't imagine Bytel taking Hills spot on a back flank or wing?

Hanners came in when we needed a lift and showed that despite his body he was clearly still up to the level, getting numbers at AFL level that Bytel has only been able to produce at VFL level and never got close to at the top grade.

It's not as though Ratten doesn't play the kids. In 2020 he backed in the youngest backline in the comp. This year he backed all our draftees.

You need to earn your spot to some degree.

Bytel was very fortunate to be backed as much as he was last year without delivering a lot.

But there comes a time when you need to start earning your spot and at 22 now he just didn't do it this year.

We were done for the year and instead of an investment in the future we went back to a guy who was due to be delisted. To me that is dumb management. There was risk that Hanners would break down, which he did against Geelong. We put him in anyway. Bytel might have been anything but likely now leaves and get somewhere else. Now we have neither.

First off, Hill was never a liability. Thats some hyperbolic crap.

Secondly, Hind and Parker were out of the side when they left. Hind played a string of games with a very poor goal return and was dropped in favour of Lonie. He was also offered a contract but wanted to go to Essendon, so thats doesn't equate to 'culling' him. And Parker played only 2 games the year he was delisted and he was below average in them, putting him 5th in line of our small forwards with Higgins about to join. So, I don't know what was all over the place about his delistment given he wasn't getting a game.

Also, why would we be hoping Bruhn end up being like Bytel when Bruhn is already ahead despite being two years younger? Bytel was either injured or putting up very average VFL numbers until the last 2-3 weeks. By then, others had overtaken him in the pecking order and the season was done. We ask for players to be selected on form and unfortunately for Bytel, him being a forum favourite doesn't make up for his lack of form this year.

How is Bruhn ahead? Because he's getting games? How will he be after a season playing at Sandy or two?

 

[Premium]

I get your point but i think both his major injuries (the McKay one and the Butler one) were just complete freak accidents that no one could have avoided.

That's true but he seems to get most of the freak accidents - first major injury was his broken jaw and the last one was his broken nose.
A fair way bad a guy by the name of Ken Hunter when playing before going to Carlton broke his jaw I think 2 or 3 times in a season and a half - I think once was in a State game against Victoria and the injuries never really effected him.
But everyone is different.

 

[phantom13]

Bulk may have helped with the pre season shoulder injury, (didn't with Jack Steele and nobody can say he isn't conditioned) but the facial clashes were avoidable only if
a) He squibbed getting the ball v McKay
2) He squibbed tackling in the head clash.

Could have been built like Mickey Conlon and would not have made scintilla of difference

I still cant fathom how McKay didnt get suspended personally.

With the tackle i think if hed NOT tackled it wouldnt have been a squib, Butler was there to tackle as well would have been justified to not tackle and try to take the ball BUT im never gonna blame anyone for trying to tackle.

 

[phantom13]

That's true but he seems to get most of the freak accidents - first major injury was his broken jaw and the last one was his broken nose.
A fair way bad a guy by the name of Ken Hunter when playing before going to Carlton broke his jaw I think 2 or 3 times in a season and a half - I think once was in a State game against Victoria and the injuries never really effected him.
But everyone is different.

Hes had two major injuries, both unavoidable collisions, one of which he returned from like 3 weeks after it happened.

Lets just take a breath, if it continues to happen he might have an issue but as it stands i think we can say its just bad luck so far.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Everything you say is correct but I think Howard is the weakest link in our tall stocks. I personally wouldn't play 4 tall defenders so if we bring in a gorilla stopper, I'm moving Howard out and keeping Battle and Wilkie as those 2nd and 3rd tall defenders. Howard is undeniably our current best option for his role but I don't think he's irreplaceable if a better KPB came in.

I'd look at making him a Rory Lobb type ruck/forward if we could find another tall defender with a bit more presence.

I had a look at the comparative weight of players, just wondering who the gorilla's are.

Heaviest & Lightest AFL Players Full List

A complete list of all players from heaviest to lightest.

www.zerohanger.com

it was interesting that :
Joyce is 95kg same weight as Paddy McCartin.
Howard and King 94Kg Ben King 98Kg.
Heath 93Kg ( Same weight as Naughton).
Jack Hayes and Battle 92Kg.
Membrey 90Kg.
Allison 87Kg
Sharman 86kg.
Adams 83Kg

Oh hell, they probably aren't accurate anyway.

 

[Hayes4PM]

Where is the evidence Bytel isn’t just Charlie Constable

33

Charlie Constable

Age

25

Ht

192cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

D/M

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.4

5star

K

9.0

3star

HB

12.4

5star

M

4.6

4star

T

3.7

5star

No current season stats available

D

22.4

5star

K

10.0

4star

HB

12.4

5star

M

4.4

4star

T

3.4

5star

2.0???

 

[gringo2011]

Where is the evidence Bytel isn’t just Charlie Constable 2.0???

He might be but Constable was always slow and not that clean. Bytel has really good traits. To me he's a Jack Steele clone. Nice size, stays on his feet and uses it way better than most inside mids.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

We were done for the year and instead of an investment in the future we went back to a guy who was due to be delisted. To me that is dumb management. There was risk that Hanners would break down, which he did against Geelong. We put him in anyway. Bytel might have been anything but likely now leaves and get somewhere else. Now we have neither.




How is Bruhn ahead? Because he's getting games? How will he be after a season playing at Sandy or two?

Here is Kent's VFL stat page. Why was he picked?

- Dean Kent

vfl.aflmstats.com

- Jack Peris

vfl.aflmstats.com

Peris was more deserving of a game.

The last time i can remember giving such a cooked player a send off was Kosi.
Difference being that Kosi was a StKilda icon for over a decade.
Kent never made it past the fringe.

Did those imbeciles think that the fans, disgruntled at not making finals, would go all warm and fuzzy if we gave a couple of fringe players a last game?

 

[StCicatriz]

Yeah I miss that decision making and skill!

View attachment 1490278

elite

zac jones levels

 

[gubby88]

Hanners did no more. Hill was kept in for months when he was a liability. If you want to piss off your fringe players that's pretty much the model. Hunter Clark did SFA as well.

JB was a bit unlucky that he wasn't ready to go when Steele went down but when we were really struggling we tried to play it safe and still lost. The player management under Ratts seems all over the shop from giving games to players like Hind and Parker and culling them the next moment to leaving kids stagnating in reserves with out hope of a call up.

I thought Bytel had played well when he got Hanners in besides him because it spread the load. I feel like we went the safe option over the future and now lose the future and the safe option. We've kept him on for years then just let him walk once he shows a bit. Going and paying up for Tanner Bruhn who we hope ends up being like Bytel seems like a step backwards seeing as we've run Bytel's value down to about zero.

Hill is a half back/winger, hanneberry is a 3x all australian premiership midfielder who can play multiple positons....


Bytel is neither a half back or a winger and not great forward. He's good in the centre but that's about it

On SM-F711B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[StCicatriz]

Windhager dominated a game with 33 disposals and 2 goals before his first inclusion.

When we got dropped he went back and had almost identical numbers.

Bytel didn't reach 28 disposals until round 20

Owens possession count wasn't as high as Windhagers but proved he was a threat both forward and in the midfield. He kicked 2 goals in 4 of his 8 games.

Bytel lacks versatility unlike Owens so that put him behind and Windhager clearly just outperformed him

Bytel was given every opportunity last year and never really took it. This year in the VFL he was just ok, but for a 22 year old inside mid you need to be doing more than just racking up mid 20's possessions if you only play the one position.

very good summarisation

my rule of thumb for a full time mid in the VFL is x 0.75 to get their AFL equiv. 25% discount at the very least. some players its 50%.