List Mgmt. 2024 List Management discussion

[Section 5]

I have been very supportive of Berry stating regularly he has been our best winger over the last 2/3 years.
But he really is a makeshift wing player but has adapted well to our game style.

However, i think the club should only offer him a 2-year deal (for loyalty only) on reasonable money with a trigger for a third.
Some other club will offer more and if so, Berry should take the offer.
I agree with a few posters that we will have to look at our salary cap to keep McCluggage.
I would rather pay market price for Hugh and lose Berry & Lyons see below.

So, who plays wing in 2025 in place of Berry. I have no real confidence in Sharp but i suppose he would be considered.
For me it is Wilmot. He has already performed well on the wing previously.
With our present crap ladder position, i would actually like to see that move made next week.

Wings Berry/Fletcher/Wilmot.
Small half backs Zorko/McKenna/Answerth.
That looks a great balance to me. I don't want to move Zorko and McKenna will come back in next week.
Answerth has earned his spot for now and we do have alternatives to replace him if his form drops off.

i would also upgrade Reville he showed some really classy AFL player moves in the VFL yesterday.
For the life of me i don't know why this has not been done.
Talk about giving a player a big confidence boost to further improve his good VFL form should be reason enough.
He would be in the running for Baileys position as well as Tunstill and Dev.
We have Coleman and Doedee out for the season. Surely, we only need to risk taking one player in the midseason draft for needs.

At this stage i would be looking to delist these players OOC in 2024.
Madden, Michael, Lane & Lyons who is probably on pretty good money.
Then offer Lyons a rookie spot with a much smaller contract to play VFL if he can't get another gig elsewhere.

 

[briztoon]

We are in a premiership window. Which players are better than Berry tomorrow? That is the equation. Have you seen our list profile? Who are these 'other players' you refer to?

To be fair to Johnny Bananas, we don't have to replace Berry tomorrow, we're talking about replacing him for next season.

Ah Chee could move in to a starting spot. We probably have a bit of a log jam in defense, and could move Wilmot back to a wing.

It takes on average two to five seasons for a player to become a consistent contributor at AFL level. So lets assume its roughly 50 games for whoever replaces Berry AND that they can get to Berry's level of contribution within 50 games. These are very generous assumptions. By that time Neale et al will be probably in the last year of their career / some will be retired and the window we have now will be vastly different.

Getting rid of Berry to replace him with some yet to be determined player from the VFL who will take years to develop makes no sense. The only way it makes sense is if Berry gets a godfather offer that it doesn't make sense to match. Again, a complete hypothetical.

 

[martinson]

Do you happen to remember 2001? DO you think we're playing worse than we were at that time early in the year? Sydney were 2-4 in 2005, Geelong had a slow start in 2007. I'm not suggesting this is the way things will go, but a turnaround in form is not without preceedence. We showed last week, our best is good enough.

Different scenario. In 01 we really had no idea how good we were till we got going. And in hindsight had a cracker list that was just emerging.

This year we're playing dispirited at times which concerns me seeing we've been playing the same way for a long time.

I'm only making an observation and a prediction if we lose a couple to lesser teams.

But of course it can be turned around if we get our mojo back.

At this point every team is still a flag chance. On paper.

 

[briztoon]

Why do you continue to ignore that the cap space Berry will chew up on a new deal can be offered to another veteran (an AFL veteran, at that) who could perform better for us?

Honestly, I'd be very surprised if we offered more than $500k to $600k to Berry. In the new EBA, that's just a little over the afl average.

If Berry is being offered $800 per over 4 years, he should probably think long and hard whether he takes that and moves.

 

[martinson]

Honestly, I'd be very surprised if we offered more than $500k to $600k to Berry. In the new EBA, that's just a little over the afl average.

If Berry is being offered $800 per over 4 years, he should probably think long and hard whether he takes that and moves.

Well seeing many here have bought into the narrative that his shoulders are cooked you wouldn't want to be offering him 4.

I don't know what he's on but at the time of his last contract his standing and potential was higher than it is now.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

Different scenario. In 01 we really had no idea how good we were till we got going. And in hindsight had a cracker list that was just emerging.

This year we're playing dispirited at times which concerns me seeing we've been playing the same way for a long time.

I'm only making an observation and a prediction if we lose a couple to lesser teams.

But of course it can be turned around if we get our mojo back.

At this point every team is still a flag chance. On paper.

We'd finished 3rd in '99. I don't think it was totally out of blue. And playing dispirited indicates a mental thing, which can be turned around.

But my point is people are arguing to blood kids because they're writing off the season prematurely. Whether the season end up being shot at the end of the year is moot - at this stage while the season is technically alive, the coaches aren't going to play someone like Torrent in place of Berry.

 

[Elixuh]

To be fair to Johnny Bananas, we don't have to replace Berry tomorrow, we're talking about replacing him for next season.

Ah Chee could move in to a starting spot. We probably have a bit of a log jam in defense, and could move Wilmot back to a wing.

The two central points he made were:
1 someone from the vfl will be as good as Berry by this time next year
Or
2 we will trade for a veteran

I disagree someone from the vfl will be as good as Berry by this time next year. I also disagree that we have the draft capital to trade for someone.

We aren’t going to overpay for Berry. I think he will be offered around afl average under the new agreement. Which probably isn’t far off what he’s on now (avg) under his old deal.

 

[BRAB]

We should get rid of berry!

For who?

That’s for the list management team to decide.

Classic bigfooty. We are either discussing list management or we’re not discussing it. You can’t bring up a hypothetical and then not discuss the consequence of that hypothetical and expect the conversation to be meaningful.

 

[briztoon]

lol @ the bold, you’re bananas Johnny!

It has been covered off in this thread why Berry is in the top 25%. I don’t know what the figure of his new deal will be, by the sounds of it neither do you.

Berry only needs to be on a back ended contract that puts him in the clubs top 25% of earners for this season alone, to trigger restrive free agency.

That's not proving Berry is on a big contract over the life of his current deal. Pretty sure the reported speculation when he re-signed his current deal, was $600k per.

Top 25% of the list is 11 players, so half the starting best 22. Considering two of our best 22 are still on their rookie deals, and another 2 are on their first contract post rookie deal, it's not hard to see Berry being one of the better paid players in our team, even if he's "just" on $600k.

 

[martinson]

We'd finished 3rd in '99. I don't think it was totally out of blue. And playing dispirited indicates a mental thing, which can be turned around.

But my point is people are arguing to blood kids because they're writing off the season prematurely. Whether the season end up being shot at the end of the year is moot - at this stage while the season is technically alive, the coaches aren't going to play someone like Torrent in place of Berry.

Well I agree with that.

It wasn't me who suggested play kids yet. I simply suggested that there are warning signs in the way we've played this year that haven't been apparent to near the same extent at any time under Fagan.

 

[Elixuh]

Berry only needs to be on a back ended contract that puts him in the clubs top 25% of earners for this season alone, to trigger restrive free agency.

That's not proving Berry is on a big contract over the life of his current deal. Pretty sure the reported speculation when he re-signed his current deal, was $600k per.

Top 25% of the list is 11 players, so half the starting best 22. Considering two of our best 22 are still on their rookie deals, and another 2 are on their first contract post rookie deal, it's not hard to see Berry being one of the better paid players in our team, even if he's "just" on $600k.

Yes this has been well covered in this thread but ignored by Johnny

 

[martinson]

I'm wondering in reality how good are we right now ? Forget that we played off last year. 2024 is another year.

Carlton have Curnow ,McKay and Weitering in key posts. We have Hipwood ,Daniher and Payne/Andrews. With Daniher spending a lot of time up the ground.

Which set of keys would you rather , considering their age as well.

 

[briztoon]

The two central points he made were:
1 someone from the vfl will be as good as Berry by this time next year

Seriously, Reville probably could be. We threw Fletcher on to a wing half way through his first year, could do the same with Torrent, who's a significantly better kick than Berry.

Or
2 we will trade for a veteran

Some of the players Johnny Bananas mentioned were restricted and unrestricted free agents, so not players we'd have to necessarily trade for, if their current clubs are happy to accept the comp pick.

I disagree someone from the vfl will be as good as Berry by this time next year. I also disagree that we have the draft capital to trade for someone.

We aren’t going to overpay for Berry. I think he will be offered around afl average under the new agreement. Which probably isn’t far off what he’s on now (avg) under his old deal.

I'm not advocating to let Berry walk, I'm just saying there's more merit in Johnny Bananas opinion than you giving credit for.

 

[Elixuh]

Seriously, Reville probably could be. We threw Fletcher on to a wing half way through his first year, could do the same with Torrent, who's a significantly better kick than Berry.

Some of the players Johnny Bananas mentioned were restricted and unrestricted free agents, so not players we'd have to necessarily trade for, if their current clubs are happy to accept the comp pick.

I'm not advocating to let Berry walk, I'm just saying there's more merit in Johnny Bananas opinion than you giving credit for.

But at what stage are you going to play a berry replacement if the contention is the replacement will be as good as Berry by this time next year? You’d have to drop Berry and play reville or torrent for the rest of the reason. And you’d be assuming they’d develop very quickly in 23 odd games.

You said in fairness to Johnny we don’t have to replace Berry tomorrow, but that’s exactly what we’d have to do lol to replace him with someone from the vfl to be ‘as good by this time next year’.

 

[mpal6]

But at what stage are you going to play a berry replacement if the contention is the replacement will be as good as Berry by this time next year? You’d have to drop Berry and play reville or torrent for the rest of the reason. And you’d be assuming they’d develop very quickly in 23 odd games.

You said in fairness to Johnny we don’t have to replace Berry tomorrow, but that’s exactly what we’d have to do lol to replace him with someone from the vfl to be ‘as good by this time next year’.

We can play Fletcher in defense doing Coleman's role, open up a wing spot and add Reville to it.

 

[Dalions]

I would be happy for the club to offer Jarrod Berry

7

Jarrod Berry

Age

26

Ht

192cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.4

4star

K

8.5

3star

HB

8.9

5star

M

3.9

4star

T

4.2

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

17.0

4star

K

9.4

4star

HB

7.6

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

5.1

5star

CL

2.9

4star

D

10.6

3star

K

4.4

2star

HB

6.2

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.8

5star

CL

0.8

3star

a 5 yr contract on a modest Salary.

 

[Elixuh]

We can play Fletcher in defense doing Coleman's role, open up a wing spot and add Reville to it.

I doubt they’d want to mess with Fletcher wing. They see him as wing and transition into midfield, eventually. And he’s doing a good job on the wing.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Berry is still better than Fletcher. Why would we throw another Fletcher quality wing in the team for berry?

 

[martinson]

Awful lot of time talking about Berry.

He's as good as we have for the wing. His disposal hasn't improved since he started out but on his good days is ok , frustrating on his poor days. He is at least a flat out trier who gives his all ,in fact too much in the dying minutes of the GF . I expect us to offer him a new contract unless someone else decides he's a great player and offers him something we wouldn't be happy in matching.

Likewise I expect we're aware of what the prognosis for his shoulders are. Been fine so far this year.

 

[Nuggo]

Are Berry and McCluggage still a package deal? Berry is a good footballer but probably hasn't delivered on his potential (lots don't) but still worthy of keeping in my opinion.

 

[briztoon]

But at what stage are you going to play a berry replacement if the contention is the replacement will be as good as Berry by this time next year? You’d have to drop Berry and play reville or torrent for the rest of the reason. And you’d be assuming they’d develop very quickly in 23 odd games.

When do you give up on the season? That's when you start playing next years winger.

But that's not in Fagan's DNA. He'd rather die with his veterans, than give a youngster a run. Move Berry inside. There's currently a spot for a 4th midfielder on the bench.

Berry's greatest asset is his gut running up and down the wing, and his never give up attitude. The exact same as Mitch Robbo. Neither are/were good ball users.

You said in fairness to Johnny we don’t have to replace Berry tomorrow, but that’s exactly what we’d have to do lol to replace him with someone from the vfl to be ‘as good by this time next year’.

They don't need to be as good as Berry, by this time next year. They need to be as good as Berry by next years finals, while not costing us a game during the season. And a lot has to go wrong elsewhere on the field, for a wing to cost us a game.

 

[Nathan Barley]

When do you give up on the season? That's when you start playing next years winger.

But that's not in Fagan's DNA. He'd rather die with his veterans, than give a youngster a run. Move Berry inside. There's currently a spot for a 4th midfielder on the bench.

Berry's greatest asset is his gut running up and down the wing, and his never give up attitude. The exact same as Mitch Robbo. Neither are/were good ball users.

They don't need to be as good as Berry, by this time next year. They need to be as good as Berry by next years finals, while not costing us a game during the season. And a lot has to go wrong elsewhere on the field, for a wing to cost us a game.

What are you basing the fagan comment on?

He moved on plenty of older players while we were rebuilding in the early seasons of his tenure

 

[Elixuh]

When do you give up on the season? That's when you start playing next years winger.

But that's not in Fagan's DNA. He'd rather die with his veterans, than give a youngster a run. Move Berry inside. There's currently a spot for a 4th midfielder on the bench.

Berry's greatest asset is his gut running up and down the wing, and his never give up attitude. The exact same as Mitch Robbo. Neither are/were good ball users.

They don't need to be as good as Berry, by this time next year. They need to be as good as Berry by next years finals, while not costing us a game during the season. And a lot has to go wrong elsewhere on the field, for a wing to cost us a game.

Johnnys post is based on our season already being done. But imo it’s when finals are an impossibility. So potentially a long time from now.

Won’t that mid spot be taken by Will?

Berry is a bit more versatile. Gut running and also pushes up into the contest. Reville probably only one in vfl who can do that well. Not sure what his gut running is like.

 

[briztoon]

What are you basing the fagan comment on?

Picking Lyons last night for the sub role. Playing Gardiner up forward. Picking Fort for one game.

Some of it is Fagan also being wedded to a certain structure and style, that is very hard for him to move away from.

He moved on plenty of older players while we were rebuilding in the early seasons of his tenure

We were rebuilding, of course you're moving on older players.

Now we are contending (questionable this season).

I do agree, that you pick your best 22, and that experienced senior players are much prefered over in experienced kids, but sometimes an extended injury list might mean having to play more kids than desired. Still Fagan went back to Lyons on the bench.

Now we didn't lose last night because of Lyons, but Lyons is incapable of making a positive impact any more, but he's still prefered over Robertson or any other young player, or moving the magnets on the board.

 

[Elixuh]

Picking Lyons last night for the sub role. Playing Gardiner up forward. Picking Fort for one game.

I know you love Dev, but picking Lyons as sub made a lot of sense in those conditions with Choc under an injury cloud.

If anything Dev has been played in more games than his form has necessarily deserved.