Replacing Kiddy for 2024

[3KZ is Football]

Footy wire and lions.com both have Doedee at 190cm.... every centimetre counts 3KZ.

I was going off Wikipedia, where he was listed at 187cm. I will trust the club to have it right. This is what Wikipedia says.

Tom Doedee
Personal information
Date of birth	1 March 1997 (age 27)
Original team(s)	Geelong Falcons (TAC Cup)/St Joseph's Football Club
Draft	No. 17, 2015 national draft
Debut	Round 1, 2018, Adelaide vs. Essendon, at Etihad Stadium
Height	187 cm (6 ft 2 in)
Weight	89 kg (196 lb)
Position(s)	Key defender

As to size M Malice - Jack Payne illustrates that it is not how big it is, but what you do with it.

 

[briztoon]

Doedee and Starcevich are both 187cm and with Lester having cemented himself, alongside Andrews as our most important “tall” defender, there is no reason to presume Doedee coming in will be at Lester’s expense.

I don’t believe Lester has cemented himself as our second most important tall defender at all.

I believe he’s in the team as we have had no better option to play as a third tall defender.

I do believe Lester is a very smart player, reads the play very well, and is able to make up for some of his athletic deficiencies because of his footy IQ. Big fan of Lester.

But if we have Andrews and a fully fit Doedee in the team, I'm only picking one of Lester or Gardiner in the team, and I'm picking Gardiner for the second tall role. And I'm a well known critic of Gardiner and have been for a number of years.

Playing all four of Andrews, Gardiner, Lester and Doedee is just begging oppositions to cut us up by playing an extra small forward or two.

How many teams legitimately have more than two gun tall forwards?

 

[McIvor]

That one has been potentially solved by selection this week.

Our strongest defensive line up at present is:
FB Gardiner, Andrews, Starcevich
HB McKenna, Lester, Wilmott
With Ah Chee and possibly Zorko on interchange in the defensive rotation. Prior and Answerth also come into the selection mix.

Once Doedee is available, our best defence would be:
FB Gardiner, Andrews, Starcevich,
HB McKenna, Lester, Doedee
With Wilmott a LOCK in the defensive rotation and Ah Chee available. Zorko, Prior or Answerth are again available to be selected for a defensive role if required.

Forgot the hashtag #Frog200

 

[3KZ is Football]

I don’t believe Lester has cemented himself as our second most important tall defender at all.

I believe he’s in the team as we have had no better option to play as a third tall defender.

I do believe Lester is a very smart player, reads the play very well, and is able to make up for some of his athletic deficiencies because of his footy IQ. Big fan of Lester.

But if we have Andrews and a fully fit Doedee in the team, I'm only picking one of Lester or Gardiner in the team, and I'm picking Gardiner for the second tall role. And I'm a well known critic of Gardiner and have been for a number of years.

Playing all four of Andrews, Gardiner, Lester and Doedee is just begging oppositions to cut us up by playing an extra small forward or two.

How many teams legitimately have more than two gun tall forwards?

The reason I say that is based on the fact that Fagan has finally dropped a serially disappointing Payne and was prepared to play Gardiner as a forward last week, rather than a defender.

As to Lester’s “athletic deficiencies” they are spoken about, but not actually evident when you watch him play. He is a tremendous spoiler, a great tackler, wears the physical hits to force stoppages and was a notable rebound defender last season. He has amazing endurance and never, ever gives up.

You are right though briztoon about his football IQ and that is a super important part of what he brings. He is really performing the backline general role that we picked up Hodge and Grant Burchill for and I think he is really excelling in that role. He is more athletically gifted than either of those players and he is certainly quicker than either was when they were at the Lions.

 

[briztoon]

The reason I say that is based on the fact that Fagan has finally dropped a serially disappointing Payne and was prepared to play Gardiner as a forward last week, rather than a defender.

This is just plain revisionist history. For the first half of last year Payne was being discussed as a potential AA squad defender, he was playing that good. Then he picked up the ankle injury that progressively got worse through the season. Gardiner in the meantime was out injured, and wasn't available until late in the season, when he came back and played a couple of reserves games, before coming in for Payne, who succumbed to his ankle injury.

The only other tall defender we had last year, was the Irish bloke we signed as a SSP rookie. He wasn't very good in the limited outings he played early in the season, before Lester came back from his preseason injury.

There was no finally to Fagan dropping Payne this year, because we've only played one game, and Payne ended last season out of the team due to his injury.

As to Lester’s “athletic deficiencies” they are spoken about, but not actually evident when you watch him play. He is a tremendous spoiler, a great tackler, wears the physical hits to force stoppages and was a notable rebound defender last season. He has amazing endurance and never, ever gives up.

Lester is not fast and can't jump high. He's a limited athlete. What he has is great footy IQ and reading the game to get in to the right position at the right time. He's not spoiling either of the King brothers, or any other number 1 key forward, because he doesn't play on them. Usually he's playing the least dangerous of the oppositions key tall or medium tall forward.

You are right though briztoon about his football IQ and that is a super important part of what he brings. He is really performing the backline general role that we picked up Hodge and Grant Burchill for and I think he is really excelling in that role. He is more athletically gifted than either of those players and he is certainly quicker than either was when they were at the Lions.

Not saying much to be quicker than a physically cooked Hodge or Birchall when they were older than what Lester is now.

 

[3KZ is Football]

I say finally, because I would have dropped Payne sooner, certainly in the back half of last season. Either that or I would have omitted him due to his ankle issues.

 

[briztoon]

I say finally, because I would have dropped Payne sooner, certainly in the back half of last season. Either that or I would have omitted him due to his ankle issues.

We only had one other tall defender to bring in, and he's worse than a hobbling Payne.

 

[Sproj]

Even including the injuries, Payne’s dramatic regression since getting that long contract is alarming.

 

[3KZ is Football]

We only had one other tall defender to bring in, and he's worse than a hobbling Payne.

Is Joyce really that bad?

Either way, It only took one bad game for Payne to be dropped this year, which leads me to conclude that his poor form last year was noted by Fagan and co last season.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Even including the injuries, Payne’s dramatic regression since getting that long contract is alarming.

Signed until 2029 - that is a long time.

 

[Nunez]

Is Joyce really that bad?

Either way, It only took one bad game for Payne to be dropped this year, which leads me to conclude that his poor form last year was noted by Fagan and co last season.

Last year his form post-injury was poor not due to lack of effort, but due to resilience (I.E not being able to play through pain etc).

He was dropped due to sheer laziness against the Blues. It was more than one occasion he didn't go and had zero excuses. Dropping him sends a big message to the playing group. Losses are okay if you put in the effort. If you don't go when it's your turn, you will be on notice very quickly and nobody is safe.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Last year his form post-injury was poor not due to lack of effort, but due to resilience (I.E not being able to play through pain etc).

He was dropped due to sheer laziness against the Blues. It was more than one occasion he didn't go and had zero excuses. Dropping him sends a big message to the playing group. Losses are okay if you put in the effort. If you don't go when it's your turn, you will be on notice very quickly and nobody is safe.

I agree Nunez. It is a dimension that has been lacking in Fagan’s coaching up until now, but I am encouraged by his approach to Payne. Berry has to be ‘on notice’ also.

 

[Nunez]

I agree Nunez. It is a dimension that has been lacking in Fagan’s coaching up until now, but I am encouraged by his approach to Payne. Berry has to be ‘on notice’ also.

The difference with Payne and Berry is Berry stunk it up in defence due to it being a foreign role and not natural for him. Not sure to lack of effort.

I think we see that experiment put to rest tonight.

 

[3KZ is Football]

The difference with Payne and Berry is Berry stunk it up in defence due to it being a foreign role and not natural for him. Not sure to lack of effort.

I think we see that experiment put to rest tonight.

Very true. Good observation.

 

[LongLion]

Is Joyce really that bad?

Either way, It only took one bad game for Payne to be dropped this year, which leads me to conclude that his poor form last year was noted by Fagan and co last season.

I wonder if there are still fitness issues with Payne?

 

[3KZ is Football]

I wonder if there are still fitness issues with Payne?

Mental fitness more than anything else. His confidence is shot. You could see it in the Port Adelaide final too.

There is ZERO percent chance he came into the opening round with a ‘niggle’. If he was carrying anything, you would have to think Gardiner would not have been playing forward and Payne would have had the week off to get right.

 

[M Malice]

I wonder if there are still fitness issues with Payne?

If there was you would think he wouldn't have even got on the plane to Perth, Jack seems from the uninformed seats to be the type of player who does not perform well if carrying a niggling injury, also needs lots of game time to find his best footy.

If he's physically fine give him an extended run in the VFL to find form and confidence, an in form Jack Payne would be invaluable come September.

 

[Sproj]

The drop in performance has been so vast, there must be something else to it, surely. He was, as mentioned earlier, in AA conversations for a fair chunk of the first half of last season and had us not missing Adams anywhere near as much as we thought we would. He then absolutely fell off a cliff - is it a coincidence it was around the same time as getting the long contract?

I hope it isn't of course but being a Broncos nut, anything like this gives me Milford PTSD.

 

[Rouge 9917]

Is Joyce really that bad?

Either way, It only took one bad game for Payne to be dropped this year, which leads me to conclude that his poor form last year was noted by Fagan and co last season.

Geez 3KZ - I read your posts with curiosity and question your daily venom attacks on Payne. I ran into the young bloke on The Sunny Coast during Off Season and he was sporting a Moon Boot. He informed me he just had surgery for Syndesmosis. It’s hard to imagine that a true supporter can constantly trash one of our players.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Geez 3KZ - I read your posts with curiosity and question your daily venom attacks on Payne. I ran into the young bloke on The Sunny Coast during Off Season and he was sporting a Moon Boot. He informed me he just had surgery for Syndesmosis. It’s hard to imagine that a true supporter can constantly trash one of our players.

Not trashing anyone. Want to see trashing, follow the game day thread and have a look at what gets posted in real time if Lester misses a single handball or a spoil. Worse still, if Andrews’ opponent scores, check out the posts suggesting that it was Lester’s fault for not covering two players simultaneously. Seems like it is ok for many to take constant pot shots at Lester about his incorrectly perceived lack of physical capacity, but don’t mention Payne or Berry’s lack of form or limitations?

Rouge 9917 , if I were being abusive or personalising my criticism or demeaning Payne, or anyone for that matter, you would have a point. My hope is that Jack Payne finds his form and becomes a valuable and potent member of our team. He’s on a five year deal, so I definitely want the club and team to get maximum value from him. I want him to have a happy and fulfilling life, because he seems like a nice young fella.

I just don’t want him in the seniors if he plays like he did against Carlton and it seems that Chris Fagan doesn’t either. I think I have made that point, so I will take your cue and not mention it again.

I hope you enjoy the footy today.

 

[Scubaveg]

Geez 3KZ - I read your posts with curiosity and question your daily venom attacks on Payne. I ran into the young bloke on The Sunny Coast during Off Season and he was sporting a Moon Boot. He informed me he just had surgery for Syndesmosis. It’s hard to imagine that a true supporter can constantly trash one of our players.

More of the same rubbish from the guy year after year. Should be permanently banned.


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[M Malice]

Impossible!

 

[Squizz89]

Assume this question didn’t get answered?

 

[dlanod]

Assume this question didn’t get answered?

McKenna rushed in because the real answer is "nobody".

 

[alscotoz2]

We can't