List Mgmt. 2023 Trade & List Management discussion

[Dalions]

Clug has also recently stated emphatically he wants to be a Lion for life and it's just a matter of getting the numbers sorted out in the interests of both parties.

Heard the other day that clubs have pulled back their interest because they believe he is going nowhere.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Didn’t see any articles when Collingwood got the Duckios brothers- funny that.

 

[BRAB]

Seems like common sense to delay any bidding changes until 2025 given that future picks were already traded under the old rules.

 

[Dalions]

Seems like common sense to delay any bidding changes until 2025 given that future picks were already traded under the old rules.

So they need to make a decision before the end of the season for next year or else the same thing will happen again.
Although I would assume the clubs will know well before we do.

 

[Maverick]

Story in yesterday’s paper. Warrnambool Standard where Hugh is from.
Headline:
Star Lion to turn back on free agency, retain vice-captaincy

 

[cotter101]

As it’s been said, Hugh ain’t going no where. We’ve managed our cap well to retain these boys.

He’ll be close to our highest paid next season.

 

[Elixuh]

Sounds like a mid-season trade period will slowly be introduced into the minds of the AFL supporting public before being implemented by the AFL next year, IMO. Disaster for non-Vic teams. Vast majority of trades will be a Vic player going to another Vic club. Will make it that much harder for interstate teams to win a flag.

 

[McIvor]

Sounds like a mid-season trade period will slowly be introduced into the minds of the AFL supporting public before being implemented by the AFL next year, IMO. Disaster for non-Vic teams. Vast majority of trades will be a Vic player going to another Vic club. Will make it that much harder for interstate teams to win a flag.

If that pic is anything to go by, despite the comp comprising close to 45% non Victorian clubs and they canvassed only one non-Victorian club coach.

A bit like when Fages came up here, I think it’ll only be a good thing that Dimma is the Suns coach because he’s the type that will realise the northern clubs struggles in particular, as Fages did and will call out the BS bias of the VIC media and really advocate for non Victorian clubs and given his standing in the game like when Leigh joined the Lions in the late 90’s will only indirectly help our cause.

The mid season trading is a joke and how and why it’s needed is beyond me other than to placate those US fan boy types which the AFL are.

 

[Jirik13]

If that pic is anything to go by, despite the comp comprising close to 45% non Victorian clubs and they canvassed only one non-Victorian club coach.

A bit like when Fages came up here, I think it’ll only be a good thing that Dimma is the Suns coach because he’s the type that will realise the northern clubs struggles in particular, as Fages did and will call out the BS bias of the VIC media and really advocate for non Victorian clubs and given his standing in the game like when Leigh joined the Lions in the late 90’s will only indirectly help our cause.

The mid season trading is a joke and how and why it’s needed is beyond me other than to placate those US fan boy types which the AFL are.

I can see strong views here against MST.

But let's say you lose all rucks early in the season (like Suns did several years ago and Burgess and Graham ended up rucking). I bet you would be happy to bring a one through MST to have a chance to win it all rather than write the season off.

 

[Nunez]

I can see strong views here against MST.

But let's say you lose all rucks early in the season (like Suns did several years ago and Burgess and Graham ended up rucking). I bet you would be happy to bring a one through MST to have a chance to win it all rather than write the season off.

Of course we would. But, say at this stage Brisbane are outside the 8. Carlton - also outside of the 8 - are in the same position. The Hawks happen to have a good third ruck who can't get a came. Brisbane and Carlton both make an offer - in what world is said ruck going to choose Brisbane? He can stay in Melbourne or potentially move, leaving behind a wife and kid (assuming they can't just uproot their lives as easily).

It is a big advantage for Victorian clubs, because moving interstate out of the blue is just not realistic for most people - players or not.

 

[Dalions]

Of course we would. But, say at this stage Brisbane are outside the 8. Carlton - also outside of the 8 - are in the same position. The Hawks happen to have a good third ruck who can't get a came. Brisbane and Carlton both make an offer - in what world is said ruck going to choose Brisbane? He can stay in Melbourne or potentially move, leaving behind a wife and kid (assuming they can't just uproot their lives as easily).

It is a big advantage for Victorian clubs, because moving interstate out of the blue is just not realistic for most people - players or not.

My own personal opinion is that it will not only help the bigger Victorian Clubs but also be helpful to clubs towards the top of the ladder and who are in a window but short a particular type of player, either through injury or just a missing piece.
It is not going to help clubs like West Coast, Hawks or North Melbourne get better.

 

[Jirik13]

My own personal opinion is that it will not only help the bigger Victorian Clubs but also be helpful to clubs towards the top of the ladder and who are in a window but short a particular type of player, either through injury or just a missing piece.
It is not going to help clubs like West Coast, Hawks or North Melbourne get better.

Clubs will have to pay serious overs. The club can always say no.

 

[Elixuh]

I can see strong views here against MST.

But let's say you lose all rucks early in the season (like Suns did several years ago and Burgess and Graham ended up rucking). I bet you would be happy to bring a one through MST to have a chance to win it all rather than write the season off.

That’s a nice way of thinking about it, but won’t be how it works in practice. Nunez is usually wrong but what he said is a great example.

 

[Jirik13]

Of course we would. But, say at this stage Brisbane are outside the 8. Carlton - also outside of the 8 - are in the same position. The Hawks happen to have a good third ruck who can't get a came. Brisbane and Carlton both make an offer - in what world is said ruck going to choose Brisbane? He can stay in Melbourne or potentially move, leaving behind a wife and kid (assuming they can't just uproot their lives as easily).

It is a big advantage for Victorian clubs, because moving interstate out of the blue is just not realistic for most people - players or not.

You offer better deal, family can move 3 months later like it would in trade period. You attracted plenty of players.

 

[Nunez]

My own personal opinion is that it will not only help the bigger Victorian Clubs but also be helpful to clubs towards the top of the ladder and who are in a window but short a particular type of player, either through injury or just a missing piece.
It is not going to help clubs like West Coast, Hawks or North Melbourne get better.

Absolutely.

Using the Suns as an example. Collingwood are having another run for the final and their ruck goes down. Ned Moyle - sitting as a back-up at the Suns despite being AFL level - is courted by the Pies. It gets leaked to the media and the Suns can either trade him or be the club who wouldn't let a VFL player join a contending club to fulfil his dream.

This will not be good for interstate clubs and clubs not contending.

 

[Nunez]

You offer better deal, family can move 3 months later like it would in trade period. You attracted plenty of players.

So pay overs for a VFL player AND also rely on his family to be reasonable and okay with being separated for 3 months?

 

[Dalions]

Clubs will have to pay serious overs. The club can always say no.

It will likely mostly be players who are out of contract at the end of the year and looking for a new opportunity anyway.
So whilst I agree clubs will need to pay overs, trades will happen.

 

[Jirik13]

Absolutely.

Using the Suns as an example. Collingwood are having another run for the final and their ruck goes down. Ned Moyle - sitting as a back-up at the Suns despite being AFL level - is courted by the Pies. It gets leaked to the media and the Suns can either trade him or be the club who wouldn't let a VFL player join a contending club to fulfil his dream.

This will not be good for interstate clubs and clubs not contending.

Moyle is a perfect example. Let's assume Moyle is leaving at the end of 2024 and Suns knows it. Why not to let him go in MST for much higher price if he would leave anyway for much less in trade period 3 months later. And if Suns still want him to stay until the end of season, they just say no. Players leaving 3 months earlier - what's the difference. Double value does (depending how desperate teams will be). Better picks help with re-build.

 

[Jirik13]

It will likely mostly be players who are out of contract at the end of the year and looking for a new opportunity anyway.
So whilst I agree clubs will need to pay overs, trades will happen.

Exactly, why not to extract better deal when the club knows player is leaving anyway. In Moyle example, what would be his value in trade period (out of contract)? 3rd round pick? Let's say Collingwood/Lions want him desperately in MST because they have no rucks. Give me a 1st round pick or GTFO.

 

[briztoon]

Of course we would. But, say at this stage Brisbane are outside the 8. Carlton - also outside of the 8 - are in the same position. The Hawks happen to have a good third ruck who can't get a came. Brisbane and Carlton both make an offer - in what world is said ruck going to choose Brisbane? He can stay in Melbourne or potentially move, leaving behind a wife and kid (assuming they can't just uproot their lives as easily).

It is a big advantage for Victorian clubs, because moving interstate out of the blue is just not realistic for most people - players or not.

It’s a big advantage for Victorian club’s enticing a kid back “home” from interstate.

 

[briztoon]

Exactly, why not to extract better deal when the club knows player is leaving anyway. In Moyle example, what would be his value in trade period (out of contract)? 3rd round pick? Let's say Collingwood/Lions want him desperately in MST because they have no rucks. Give me a 1st round pick or GTFO.

You’re about to be a contending team, and Witts is likely on his last contract. Losing Moyle would be a serious step back for your lot.

A first round pick is great and all, until you draft a kid and park him the reserves behind a long list of recent draftees and academy kids.

If you’re going to “cash in” on one player, I’d be looking to trade Mac Andrew.

 

[Jirik13]

You’re about to be a contending team, and Witts is likely on his last contract. Losing Moyle would be a serious step back for your lot.

A first round pick is great and all, until you draft a kid and park him the reserves behind a long list of recent draftees and academy kids.

If you’re going to “cash in” on one player, I’d be looking to trade Mac Andrew.

Moyle was just example. Although Witts will probably still play min 2-3 years (he is off contract after 2024). Not sure Moyle will want to wait that long. In 3 years, it could be Read/Andrew (if he can bulk up by then) in the ruck.

As Dimma said, Andrew could become one of the best players in AFL. So, I keep him for now Signed until the end of 2025.

 

[Viceregal]

Of course you have to pay 'overs' to make a special talent move or to fill a hole ... both the player and the club know it and so bargain accordingly ... unfortunately the 'overs' we and the Suns etc pay are part of our salary cap ... the 'overs' that eg the Pies pay is not.

Also if I am a coach/list manager and I know that I am a destination club and have all of the media support I would ever need to support the correct narrative (we have all seen this) then it will affect my list decisions as I no longer need to cover that extra ruck position etc as I know I can pick one up at half time should things go pear shaped. I can't rely on it of course (injuries right after the mid season trade or right at the start of the year etc) but it is another factor to be weighed in...

 

[Nunez]

Moyle is a perfect example. Let's assume Moyle is leaving at the end of 2024 and Suns knows it. Why not to let him go in MST for much higher price if he would leave anyway for much less in trade period 3 months later. And if Suns still want him to stay until the end of season, they just say no. Players leaving 3 months earlier - what's the difference. Double value does (depending how desperate teams will be). Better picks help with re-build.

If the MST existed last year, there is every chance both Lohmann and Robertson would have left.

Both were as good as gone, but opted to sign very late in the piece.

Yes, in the scenario you've mentioned we could have said no, but it isn't always that easy. Say you're Moyle, you've come out and publically asked to leave (via your manager/the media) to join the Pies as you know they'll play you and you could win a flag. The Suns say to Moyle they don't want him to go and decline his request. I guarantee we'd then see many managers in this situation try and apply pressure on the club to reconsider. The Suns aren't playing finals, he's going to leave anyway, take a good offer or lose him for less in 3 months etc etc etc.

The Suns then cave and trade him.

This scenario already plays out with guys who have a year left on their contract and in most circumstances it almost always favours the player, not the club.

This will be a very common theme for clubs outside the 8.

 

[Dalions]

If the MST existed last year, there is every chance both Lohmann and Robertson would have left.

Both were as good as gone, but opted to sign very late in the piece.

Yes, in the scenario you've mentioned we could have said no, but it isn't always that easy. Say you're Moyle, you've come out and publically asked to leave (via your manager/the media) to join the Pies as you know they'll play you and you could win a flag. The Suns say to Moyle they don't want him to go and decline his request. I guarantee we'd then see many managers in this situation try and apply pressure on the club to reconsider. The Suns aren't playing finals, he's going to leave anyway, take a good offer or lose him for less in 3 months etc etc etc.

The Suns then cave and trade him.

This scenario already plays out with guys who have a year left on their contract and in most circumstances it almost always favours the player, not the club.

This will be a very common theme for clubs outside the 8.

I don’t think Dev would have left last year in a mst.
He was balls deep in a Premiership push and if we had have won the Premiership he may no longer be here, but I think he was fully invested in the middle of the year.
Kai on the other hand??