Discussion 2023 General AFL Discussion

[gringo2011]

Just finished watching, what an absolute cracker of a game! At certain points of the match I was trying to imagine our team being able to perform like that in front of 86000 people. Geez, we do seem a long, long way off that.

It's gonna take a while.

The days when you were locked out of games at Marvel seem like a fever dream it was so long ago. Games like the Troy Schwartz Brisbane game and the Gardy mark against Geelong game seem like they're from a different lifetime.

 

[gringo2011]

I think our biggest mistake and it’s going to sound strange but I think it was trying to win too much. Top 10 picks aren’t enough, you need top 5 but I guess that judging by our other picks we probably would’ve butchered the picks anyway.

Yeah, true, we'd stuffed the rebuild so kept having coaches come in saying that they could play finals and we were too far down the path to go backwards. We were absolutely terrible at drafting too though. We never replaced John Beverage and put Trout in who was an assistant coach. Finnis was happy to leave the footy department alone as long as they didn't ask for too much and promised that they were on the right track.

Other clubs have rebuilt without going backwards so the lower picks alone weren't it. We always tried to cheat the system by picking up guys like Freeman instead of doing it the stable sensible way too.

After Brendan Goddard falling in our laps we pretty much blew every first round pick apart from Gresham and King. (Including all the compo we got for our golden generation players). We have no AAs from drafting from the national draft in that time, have few star quality players etc.

 

[hayes]

Yeah, true, we'd stuffed the rebuild so kept having coaches come in saying that they could play finals and we were too far down the path to go backwards. We were absolutely terrible at drafting too though. We never replaced John Beverage and put Trout in who was an assistant coach. Finnis was happy to leave the footy department alone as long as they didn't ask for too much and promised that they were on the right track.

Other clubs have rebuilt without going backwards so the lower picks alone weren't it. We always tried to cheat the system by picking up guys like Freeman instead of doing it the stable sensible way too.

After Brendan Goddard falling in our laps we pretty much blew every first round pick apart from Gresham and King. (Including all the compo we got for our golden generation players). We have no AAs from drafting from the national draft in that time, have few star quality players etc.

It’s one of the worst periods of drafting in recent history there’s no doubt about that. Someone will quote me with excuses but the results speak for themselves.

 

[plugger66]

I just had a comment deleted on the main board match thread.

All I said was "It's not all bad news for Jeremy Howe St Kilda has just offered him a 3 year deal as we need more injury prone players".

I was making more fun of St Kilda than Jeremy Howe.

Probably not the time. That looked shocking.footballers are so tough.

 

[plugger66]

Yeah, true, we'd stuffed the rebuild so kept having coaches come in saying that they could play finals and we were too far down the path to go backwards. We were absolutely terrible at drafting too though. We never replaced John Beverage and put Trout in who was an assistant coach. Finnis was happy to leave the footy department alone as long as they didn't ask for too much and promised that they were on the right track.

Other clubs have rebuilt without going backwards so the lower picks alone weren't it. We always tried to cheat the system by picking up guys like Freeman instead of doing it the stable sensible way too.

After Brendan Goddard falling in our laps we pretty much blew every first round pick apart from Gresham and King. (Including all the compo we got for our golden generation players). We have no AAs from drafting from the national draft in that time, have few star quality players etc.

We went backwards but we got the wrong draft picks. Anyway rebuilding from the bottom has much less success than just a natural rebuild. It’s the wrong way to get better. And a lot of that is all in the past and doesn’t affect us now. May as well bring up Ian Stewart. And that idiot pelchen got the compo from trading previous stars for picks when 2 new clubs started. That was the time to keep everyone and build again.

 

[gringo2011]

I don’t think you can win with different styles anymore. It’s fast footy or you fail.

You can be fast and clean or fast and messy though. I think we all know which one is going to be our style.

 

[plugger66]

You can be fast and clean or fast and messy though. I think we all know which one is going to be our style.

I’m going out on a limb here and saying how you win games of footy this year after a huge total of 2 matches may just be a little early. I know it’s a big statement by me but that’s how I feel. And I just don’t get you gringo. You say we can beat freo with a quarter of the side out. You say last years list was good enough to be top 4 and I know you are half joking but you then knock our play. When you punt which I think you have said you don’t do I’m suggesting if you did you would bet each way.

 

[gringo2011]

We went backwards but we got the wrong draft picks. Anyway rebuilding from the bottom has much less success than just a natural rebuild. It’s the wrong way to get better. And a lot of that is all in the past and doesn’t affect us now. May as well bring up Ian Stewart. And that idiot pelchen got the compo from trading previous stars for picks when 2 new clubs started. That was the time to keep everyone and build again.

We are literally where we are because we have stuffed up drafting until recently. I'm not even convinced that Toce is up to it yet. If you can't analyse what you're doing wrong, you can't improve.

 

[plugger66]

We are literally where we are because we have stuffed up drafting until recently. I'm not even convinced that Toce is up to it yet. If you can't analyse what you're doing wrong, you can't improve.

Sorry I saw the name goddard. That seems a fairly long time ago when he was drafted. Your starting point for any employee is low so I’m certain you aren’t convinced about toce but he is the only important person we need to worry about now. You say if you can’t analyse the past you can’t improve. I say talking about the past employees mistakes doesn’t help tge future. The choice is to look forward or look backwards. Looking backwards is 149 years of pain. It didn’t start with trout Now how does toce convince you because I can’t see much he has done wrong yet. Every single recruiter makes mistakes. The secret is to limit them. I’d say he has started with a bang so I’m convinced so far.

 

[Sully111]

Richmond had a dynasty based on chaos so it's not always true. Geelong won a flag but their super clean style of footy didn't hold up in finals for years.

As Plugger said you can have contrasting styles but really need to tailor to what you have. Ratts had us playing clean keepings off footy in 2021 and we didn't have the skills to achieve it. I think that we are going to have to create a game plan around our working class list. Tough, combative and disciplined is probably the best we can hope for.

Richmond's skills weren't as poor as our's have been.

 

[gringo2011]

I’m going out on a limb here and saying how you win games of footy this year after a huge total of 2 matches may just be a little early. I know it’s a big statement by me but that’s how I feel. And I just don’t get you gringo. You say we can beat freo with a quarter of the side out. You say last years list was good enough to be top 4 and I know you are half joking but you then knock our play. When you punt which I think you have said you don’t do I’m suggesting if you did you would bet each way.

What are you on about? Richmond are messy and win games, what don't you understand? Last year footy sped up and you'd imagine that more are going to start moving the ball faster not less. At some point there might be a shift but the rules have changed to help it go faster so it would take some balls to move against the tide.

We should have played finals last year from where we were at the half way point. Richmond, Dogs and Freo were no better than us IMO. Sydney were probably the overachiever in the top 4. We kicked ourselves out of games and lost a few through mental fragility. I don't think we had a side that was going anywhere in finals but should have at least played in them.

Others have noticeably improved their lists around us and I think we are back in the pack a bit and with injuries it's not a definite that we are top 8 even this year but without seeing us against real opposition. Freo look like they are one of the vulnerable sides from the 2022 top 8.

I think playing here we should be able to match them up even injured. Our tall forward set up was a liability last year. Having to work outside it might be an advantage. Snags is a goal kicker and Butler was really good when we used him as a goal sneak. Caminiti looks a natural and Phillipou and Owens looks like they can both play forward. We will win this through defensive tactics though, not a shoot out. If our midfield can work two ways and the backline holds up we are in with a good chance.

 

[plugger66]

The difference is Collingwood hit targets. You can have all the fitness and run you like, but without the skills, you won't get to the next level.

For a long time our skills have been sh*t. Until we sort that, we're not getting near a flag.

With a list of over 40 every club would have similar skills. You design a game plan that suits your skills and makes your skills look better. Players we think that are unskilled in afl hardly miss a target if dropped to the vfl. Byrnes is a perfect example of that. We will design a game plan that makes our skills look better. It just will take time. And even if their skills are equal to other clubs their actual ability may not be. Some players are just better and some clubs just have better players. Skills is the least of our issues

 

[plugger66]

What are you on about? Richmond are messy and win games, what don't you understand? Last year footy sped up and you'd imagine that more are going to start moving the ball faster not less. At some point there might be a shift but the rules have changed to help it go faster so it would take some balls to move against the tide.

We should have played finals last year from where we were at the half way point. Richmond, Dogs and Freo were no better than us IMO. Sydney were probably the overachiever in the top 4. We kicked ourselves out of games and lost a few through mental fragility. I don't think we had a side that was going anywhere in finals but should have at least played in them.

Others have noticeably improved their lists around us and I think we are back in the pack a bit and with injuries it's not a definite that we are top 8 even this year but without seeing us against real opposition. Freo look like they are one of the vulnerable sides from the 2022 top 8.

I think playing here we should be able to match them up even injured. Our tall forward set up was a liability last year. Having to work outside it might be an advantage. Snags is a goal kicker and Butler was really good when we used him as a goal sneak. Caminiti looks a natural and Phillipou and Owens looks like they can both play forward. We will win this through defensive tactics though, not a shoot out. If our midfield can work two ways and the backline holds up we are in with a good chance.

I might start with what are you on about. Playing here meant a 40 point loss last year. That was against us who you rated top 4 last year which imo was complete crap but it suits me now. Now you say lists have improved around us and we are back in the pack. That I certainly agree with. But now we play a side who beat us by 40 points here with our list not improving and with 25% of our top 23 out but we should match them. This is the side that lost 5 less games than us last year and had a percentage 17% above us. It just doesn’t get close to adding up.


As for your first paragraph I wasn’t having a go at you or anyone. No idea why the tigers were brought up. I stand by what I said though. 2 games is far to early to say how footy will be played this year especially as both games were about 180 degrees different and I still can’t work out which style will win big games. Common sense says the second game because they were better sides last year but I’m happy to wait for a much bigger sample.

 

[gringo2011]

Sorry I saw the name goddard. That seems a fairly long time ago when he was drafted. Your starting point for any employee is low so I’m certain you aren’t convinced about toce but he is the only important person we need to worry about now. You say if you can’t analyse the past you can’t improve. I say talking about the past employees mistakes doesn’t help tge future. The choice is to look forward or look backwards. Looking backwards is 149 years of pain. It didn’t start with trout Now how does toce convince you because I can’t see much he has done wrong yet. Every single recruiter makes mistakes. The secret is to limit them. I’d say he has started with a bang so I’m convinced so far.

Toce convinces me by picking players that are top line. So far Nas wants home and Windy and Owens picked themselves by falling in our laps.

Then he has the 2022 draft where he's taken a whole suite of players. Phillipou looks good but only time will tell if he was the best choice. If we give him 5 or 6 years with no accountability it's an issue with the decision makers at the club.

King is the only definite top line player in recent drafting so we need to keep an eye on them. Clark, Paton and Coffield are looking like they could be another lost draft if they don't step up this season. We really need to be picking up at least one good to excellent player every draft to make up for past mistakes and we need to keep an eye on Lyon as well. He was never a great developer of youth in the past. We need a symbiotic drafting and development program with a focus on list improvement.

 

[gubby88]

Toce convinces me by picking players that are top line. So far Nas wants home and Windy and Owens picked themselves by falling in our laps.

Then he has the 2022 draft where he's taken a whole suite of players. Phillipou looks good but only time will tell if he was the best choice. If we give him 5 or 6 years with no accountability it's an issue with the decision makers at the club.

King is the only definite top line player in recent drafting so we need to keep an eye on them. Clark, Paton and Coffield are looking like they could be another lost draft if they don't step up this season. We really need to be picking up at least one good to excellent player every draft to make up for past mistakes and we need to keep an eye on Lyon as well. He was never a great developer of youth in the past. We need a symbiotic drafting and development program with a focus on list improvement.

So you must not rate the swans list manager's as about half that list fell into their laps....
Also, Lyon developed a list that 3 years later would finish top 4. With players like Brayshaw saying he was great for his development.

Lyon hasn't been given a chance to show his development skills. But he took two teams to grand finals then helped cultivate a freo list that last looks to be very good
On SM-G960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[gubby88]

On SM-G960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[plugger66]

Toce convinces me by picking players that are top line. So far Nas wants home and Windy and Owens picked themselves by falling in our laps.

Then he has the 2022 draft where he's taken a whole suite of players. Phillipou looks good but only time will tell if he was the best choice. If we give him 5 or 6 years with no accountability it's an issue with the decision makers at the club.

King is the only definite top line player in recent drafting so we need to keep an eye on them. Clark, Paton and Coffield are looking like they could be another lost draft if they don't step up this season. We really need to be picking up at least one good to excellent player every draft to make up for past mistakes and we need to keep an eye on Lyon as well. He was never a great developer of youth in the past. We need a symbiotic drafting and development program with a focus on list improvement.

You are a ridiculously hard marker. As if toce wouldn’t have enquired about Milera. Things just happen and it hasn’t even happened yet. And then 2 players fall into our lap. He can’t win. Who tge hell is suggesting 5 or 6 years with no accountability? You only it seems. Lyon had no picks in the past to work with. By the way I reckon Steven armo Stanley McEvoy were developed pretty well. Just because they couldn’t play regular senior footy at the time doesn’t mean they weren’t developed. Anyway I’m choosing to say toce is going very well so far. You can be not convinced. It’s a tough way to enjoy the club imo.

 

[plugger66]

View attachment 1632447

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I just congratulated him on that. Very good. Missed it initially until you put it here.

 

[dudeintheswamp]

A free day for me today, think I might get a little set up and make the day a bit of a footy marathon. Some good games on, even the early one we'll get to see a few of last year's high draft picks, Sheezel and Ginbey. Also I don't often agree with ole Kano but I think he's right about the early game. West Coast should be winning pretty easily today I'd reckon. Looking at the teams for that match I just can't see how the bookies have norf as favourites.

I think this Port v Bris game should be a bit of a cracker, both have named strong looking teams and we'll get a look at young Ashcroft. Lots predicting a Brisbane flag but I see port winning today somehow. Looks like the strongest team they've named for a while. Both teams match up pretty well, should be a close one.

And tonight, the dees have a few outs, reckon I might tip a little upset with the dogs getting up. Looking forward to that match!

 

[plugger66]

A free day for me today, think I might get a little set up and make the day a bit of a footy marathon. Some good games on, even the early one we'll get to see a few of last year's high draft picks, Sheezel and Ginbey. Also I don't often agree with ole Kano but I think he's right about the early game. West Coast should be winning pretty easily today I'd reckon. Looking at the teams for that match I just can't see how the bookies have norf as favourites.

I think this Port v Bris game should be a bit of a cracker, both have named strong looking teams and we'll get a look at young Ashcroft. Lots predicting a Brisbane flag but I see port winning today somehow. Looks like the strongest team they've named for a while. Both teams match up pretty well, should be a close one.

And tonight, the dees have a few outs, reckon I might tip a little upset with the dogs getting up. Looking forward to that match!

You get power in the swamp?

 

[gringo2011]

So you must not rate the swans list manager's as about half that list fell into their laps....
Also, Lyon developed a list that 3 years later would finish top 4. With players like Brayshaw saying he was great for his development.

Lyon hasn't been given a chance to show his development skills. But he took two teams to grand finals then helped cultivate a freo list that last looks to be very good
On SM-G960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

That Freo list was also added to after he left and picking the right talent helped. Sydney have been given heaps but their ability to manage staying in finals for 20 years without losing ground is more than a handful of free hits.

Lyon has never really been that interested in development coaching. He's a warlord not a bureaucrat. He needs the smell of gun powder in his nostrils, not sitting in the planning office.

I rate Lyon but if we were doing a rebuild he's not the guy I would have taken.

 

[gringo2011]

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He's going to get smashed for that.

 

[plugger66]

That Freo list was also added to after he left and picking the right talent helped. Sydney have been given heaps but their ability to manage staying in finals for 20 years without losing ground is more than a handful of free hits.

Lyon has never really been that interested in development coaching. He's a warlord not a bureaucrat. He needs the smell of gun powder in his nostrils, not sitting in the planning office.

I rate Lyon but if we were doing a rebuild he's not the guy I would have taken.

Lyon is in charge of the coaches. The development is done by others. I’m certain he knows exactly where the list is at. Hard to develop or to know if he can develop when they are already there. He is a very good coach. See no reason why his group can’t be also good at developing.

 

[gringo2011]

You are a ridiculously hard marker. As if toce wouldn’t have enquired about Milera. Things just happen and it hasn’t even happened yet. And then 2 players fall into our lap. He can’t win. Who tge hell is suggesting 5 or 6 years with no accountability? You only it seems. Lyon had no picks in the past to work with. By the way I reckon Steven armo Stanley McEvoy were developed pretty well. Just because they couldn’t play regular senior footy at the time doesn’t mean they weren’t developed. Anyway I’m choosing to say toce is going very well so far. You can be not convinced. It’s a tough way to enjoy the club imo.

My mate who is a draft nut said that Wanganeen-Milera had mad skills but he'll head home as soon as his contract ends. If that's the pre-draft talk we must have heard it too. This guy literally said he'll not want to leave his family in SA. For a club that can't really afford big gambles it was quite a big one.

Armo and Steven were rotting away in the reserves until Watters came along. Stanley had 2 years and played 9 games under Lyon. Hardly massively developed. McEvoy was given plenty of development under Lyon though.

 

[plugger66]

He's going to get smashed for that.

It’s called uncensored. That’s soft to some of the stuff written. It’s a site where you really see the worst especially after a loss. Makes this place look like a kindergarten